Flirting taboos: cultural or religious?

[seekingsynthesis]

I’ll get right to the question, but there is more personal context below.

(Apologies if this is TMI, but I’m sick of generic purity talks that don’t give practice guideline.)
For a couple talking about engagement, what are general opinions on:

-the odd butt grab, mostly playfully?
-a quick thigh squeeze in the car?
-requests to “do a slow spin” in a certain outfit, so he can get a good look?
-suggestive remarks (sometimes playful, sometimes serious) about how much he’s looking forward to getting to sleep together?
-jokes about “wish I was there” when I’m about to get in the shower

Additional question: if anyone thinks these are a bit inappropriate now, do they have a place in marriage? (I can’t tell if I just have a gut sense that it’s too soon, or if even once married I’ll feel stiff and awkward responding to attempts like this).

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For context- three points as to why I don’t have a good gut sense on all this:

1. I tend to be over-the-top self conscious about any physical affection, and fairly scrupulous, and my boyfriend is much more comfortable
2. I am not a fan of anything tending towards “don’t kiss until the wedding”. I think that the wedding night will be enough of an adjustment as it is, and I can’t go 0-100 in a day. There needs to be a certain gradual increase in physical affection, short of anything purely sexual, of course.

3)there are such cultural differences when it comes to physical affection/comfortability with sex. I’m from a culture that’s pretty reserved and my boyfriend hangs out in circles that are much more open. My family isn’t even comfortable if he has his arm around me, so it doesn’t give me a great sense of which taboos are religious and which are cultural.

 

[Vico]

…
do they have a place in marriage?
…

The unwelcome behavior of a sexual nature, for example, unwelcome sexual comments , jokes, and innuendos, and unwelcome touches would be considered as a Hostile Work Environment for the recipient, if it occurred at an office. Here it is also inappropriate. I can see arm around also as difficult for many, whereas holding hands is normal.

The goal should to show respect, to maintain dignity, and not temp the other sexually. Petting, of course, is reserved for foreplay in marriage. Is it possible he has never learned this or has bad examples in his family?

 

[27lw]

It’s a tough call, because our culture is so over-the-top “no boundaries”.
I think the “slow spin” request is a bit creepy, maybe, because then he does seem to be treating you like an object to be looked at. Just in my opinion. The physical touches are at least an interaction between the two of you.
Is it common that he’s at your place when you’re getting in the shower?
Does he know that you and he are not on the same page about all this?
My husband is a bit like this, but I fully admit that I am out of step with the culture of our times.
I’ve been married for 24 years now, and everything overall has been good.
He used to joke that I gave him a hard time because he once kissed me on the street when we were walking somewhere downtown.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Additional question: if anyone thinks these are a bit inappropriate now, do they have a place in marriage? (I can’t tell if I just have a gut sense that it’s too soon, or if even once married I’ll feel stiff and awkward responding to attempts like this).

I don’t think any of this stuff is per se inappropriate or sinful. Does it bother you or make you uncomfortable? If so, that’s the issue, not the flirtation itself.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

-the odd butt grab, mostly playfully?
-a quick thigh squeeze in the car?
-requests to “do a slow spin” in a certain outfit, so he can get a good look?
-suggestive remarks (sometimes playful, sometimes serious) about how much he’s looking forward to getting to sleep together?
-jokes about “wish I was there” when I’m about to get in the shower

I know there are men who carry on this way.
I personally find it juvenile and wouldn’t want to be around it, whether I was dating, engaged or married. I especially would not want to be around any man who carries on like this in front of other people. That’s a red flag that the guy is showing dominance and disrespect.

I realize some women might not mind it or might even like it, so if they want to be married to a guy who acts like this for the rest of their life, that’s their choice.

From a moral standpoint, unless the couple is engaged, I see it as morally inappropriate, especially the grabbing at intimate parts, which is either an occasion of sin, a disrespect for the woman’s dignity, or both.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I think the “slow spin” request is a bit creepy, maybe, because then he does seem to be treating you like an object to be looked at. Just in my opinion. The physical touches are at least an interaction between

I don’t know. If this was a random woman and not someone he was discerning marriage with, yeah, creepy for sure. But given that they already have a semi-intimate connection, I think you can chalk it up to just playful flirting.

I think it also depends on how often this stuff is happening and in what context. Is he reading the room appropriately to know when a flirty remark might be welcome? Or is it like a constant barrage of suggestive comments?

The unwelcome behavior of a sexual nature, for example, unwelcome sexual comments , jokes, and innuendos, and unwelcome touches would be considered as a Hostile Work Environment for the recipient, if it occurred at an office. Here it is also inappropriate. I can see arm around also as difficult for many, whereas holding hands is normal.

The goal should to show respect, to maintain dignity, and not temp the other sexually. Petting, of course, is reserved for foreplay in marriage. Is it possible he has never learned this or has bad examples in his family?

Is it unwelcome, though? OP seems to be concerned that she’s crossing a line in terms of sin, or “going too far.” She hasn’t said “I told him I don’t like this and he still does it.”

I know there are men who carry on this way.
I personally find it juvenile and wouldn’t want to be around it, whether I was dating, engaged or married. I especially would not want to be around any man who carries on like this in front of other people. That’s a red flag that the guy is showing dominance and disrespect.

I realize some women might not mind it or might even like it, so if they want to be married to a guy who acts like this for the rest of their life, that’s their choice.

I agree that this is going to depend a lot on the individuals. There are definitely women who would find this annoying, and there are women who would enjoy it. I think we can all agree, though, that none of this is sinful or inappropriate within marriage, which was one of the OPs questions. It might not be someone’s cup of tea, but I can’t imagine anyone saying there’s anything wrong with a husband playfully grabbing his wife’s butt (assuming she hasn’t indicated that she’s not in the mood for that right now.)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The issue here is, this couple is not married. They aren’t even engaged.

If they were engaged and the wedding was a couple months away, I can better understand a man acting like “hubba hubba, can’t wait”. But this is a couple who aren’t engaged and are just discussing whether or not they want to be.

Plus, the woman posting sounds like she’s having a gut feeling this isn’t comfortable. If she’s not comfortable, she should be able to say, “Honey, I’m not comfortable with you doing that right now when we aren’t even engaged,” and he should be able to say something like, “Aw, I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable, you’re just so pretty I get carried away. I won’t do it any more if it’s bugging you.”
Instead it sounds like she’s worrying that she’s too prudish for not welcoming this sort of thing, when actually there are a lot of women who aren’t prudes but still don’t want to be dealing with suggestive remarks and handsiness.

I know men don’t all have the same personality, but whatever happened to being a gentleman?
Whatever happened to “You look absolutely lovely” as opposed to, “Wish I could jump in the shower with you.” Whatever happened to Cary Grant as opposed to Jack Black?

 

[Jen7]

I think all of those are great in marriage!

While engaged… it really depends on ya’ll. What is a near occasion of sin for you and him? Ya’ll can discuss. Your boundaries will be different from another couple’s. But you want to stay away from whatever makes it truly hard to not sin together. No need to be scrupulous about it - just be real with yourselves. Avoid wut you need to avoid; include everything else; stay one with each other and touch in with each other about how purity is going; modify as needed & go to Confession as needed. Pray for each other. Praise each other for staying chaste together.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Plus, the woman posting sounds like she’s having a gut feeling this isn’t comfortable. If she’s not comfortable, she should be able to say, “Honey, I’m not comfortable with you doing that right now when we aren’t even engaged,” and he should be able to say something like, “Aw, I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable, you’re just so pretty I get carried away. I won’t do it any more if it’s bugging you.”
Instead it sounds like she’s worrying that she’s too prudish for not welcoming this sort of thing, when actually there are a lot of women who aren’t prudes but still don’t want to be dealing with suggestive remarks and handsiness.

Totally agree that if she’s uncomfortable, she should feel perfectly free to say so without worrying about prudishness and he should knock it off. I just can’t tell from the OP if the issue is that she doesn’t like it or if she’s concerned it’s a sin (she also said she tends toward scrupulosity and is concerned about going from 0-100 after marriage.)

I know men don’t all have the same personality, but whatever happened to being a gentleman?
Whatever happened to “You look absolutely lovely” as opposed to, “Wish I could jump in the shower with you.” Whatever happened to Cary Grant as opposed to Jack Black?

Why can’t the same man be both in different situations? It’s all about reading the room. If he’s making suggestive comments and squeezing her thigh under the table when they’re having dinner with her family, totally inappropriate. Or if she’s trying to have a serious conversation with him and he can’t stop making sexual jokes and references, yeah, he needs to cool it and act like an adult.

On the other hand, there might be situations when they’re alone and the vibe is right that playful, suggestive comments aren’t unwelcome. It’s not (necessarily) the behavior itself that’s wrong, it’s about knowing when to be Cary Grant and when it’s okay to be Jack Black. Just like a woman might wear something sexy when she’s alone at home with her husband that she would never wear to the office. The same woman can be a picture of decorum and good taste in one situation and a sexy minx in the other. Neither is “wrong”, just depends on the context.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, again you’re assuming a married couple who have presumably known each other long enough to be able to read the room and know what the other person likes, doesn’t like, etc. This couple is just dating. They aren’t even engaged.

Also, I know that sometimes people get to like each other over shared interests even though they come from super-different family backgrounds, or the more “open” person will see a “reserved” person as a challenge or different from what they are used to. But there’s also a subset of “open” people who like to seek out “reserved” people and push their limits because they get a little thrill out of that. Sometimes both parties like this and it works out, other times the person being pushed is actually uncomfortable but feels they just need to “get over it” or “set it aside” assuming it’s normal behavior or “culturally expected”.

OP, if you’re not comfortable with what this guy is doing, or you need him to slow it down a notch, then tell him, and expect him to respect your wishes. If he doesn’t respect your wishes, or tries to tell you that you’re too strait-laced, this is an issue.

Also, from a cultural standpoint in USA at least, a man grabbing a butt or a thigh is a signal that the couple are either having relations or are planning to have them soon. It is not something people do in other contexts. A kiss (assuming it’s not a passionate French kiss), a cuddle (with no intimate parts grabbing) etc do not carry the same sexual overtones.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

1. no, not a constant barrage. And very balanced by other things… he compliments me on many other things to do with personality, skills, actions, etc. It’s not as if this is all that our relationship consists of.
2. and no, I’ve never asked him to stop. Sometimes I might feel a bit awkward responding, or blush, but this can be kind of funny and he tends to think it’s cute. If I ever tell him in all seriousness to stop something, he does.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

I understand the difference between cultures, and the overtones in the US. (For the record, though, I don’t live in the US, lol… funny how that’s always the assumption).

And as I’ve said, I’m not sure whether I’ll grow in comfortability in this area or not. (I used to even turn down hugs from guy friends in highschool, which in retrospect was pretty harsh).
So I’d like to work to be more open because I’m a bit closed off naturally. I’m just asking if it seems objectively sinful or inappropriate.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

this is far from a workplace. Just about anything a boyfriend does, sexual or not, would be unwelcome to a stranger in a workplace

 

[Vico]

…
Is it unwelcome, though? OP seems to be concerned that she’s crossing a line in terms of sin, or “going too far.” She hasn’t said “I told him I don’t like this and he still does it.”
…

Yes, it is unwanted as can be seen in the original post:

• “I tend to be over-the-top self conscious about any physical affection”
• “There needs to be a certain gradual increase in physical affection, short of anything purely sexual”

 

[seekingsynthesis]

not neccesarrily unwanted, I’m just not used to it. As I said above, I used to be so prudish as to avoid hugging good friends of the opposite gender. I regret that. So now I am trying to be open, but feeling like I don’t have a natural sense of good boundaries.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

Or is it like a constant barrage of suggestive comments?

no, not a constant barrage. And very balanced by other things… he compliments me on many other things to do with personality, skills, actions, etc. It’s not as if this is all that our relationship consists of.

 

[seekingsynthesis]

Whatever happened to “You look absolutely lovely”

He also tells me this, often.

 

[Vico]

not neccesarrily unwanted, I’m just not used to it. As I said above, I used to be so prudish as to avoid hugging good friends of the opposite gender. I regret that. So now I am trying to be open, but feeling like I don’t have a natural sense of good boundaries.

If you are not used to it then you are uncomfortable then. It is bad example to others to publicly do what should be private. So the good boundary is not to be taken from entertainment or pornography. “Others will want one.”

This may help.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

To live well is nothing other than to love God with all one’s heart, with all one’s soul and with all one’s efforts; from this it comes about that love is kept whole and uncorrupted (through temperance). No misfortune can disturb it (and this is fortitude). It obeys only [God] (and this is justice), and is careful in discerning things, so as not to be surprised by deceit or trickery (and this is prudence).75

72 Sir 5:2; cf. 37:27-31.
73 Sir 18:30.
74 Titus 2:12.
75 St. Augustine, De moribus eccl. 1,25,46L 32,1330-1331.

 

[BartholomewB]

In the title of the thread you seem to be asking for answers to the question, “Is this cultural or is it religious?” Expressed like that, it’s not a request for advice on how to react to unwelcome advances, it’s a request for factual information about religions and cultures. And yet you make it clear that his advances are unwelcome. Why not just tell him that in so many words?

 

[seekingsynthesis]

Why not just tell him that in so many words?

I’ve hesitated because he is a good man who I don’t want to shut down when he’s trying to reach out, if I don’t have to. I"ve had a history of being too closed off and regretting it, so I need to be very sure of my boundaries objectively before I express them.