Flogging a dead horse

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That’s not what I said. Perhaps it would help if you read over my argument again.
It did not help too much. I am having trouble synthesizing what your point is. You did also say:
The point of the argument is to show the believer that if he were in a certain situation he would have to kill an infant, it does not matter that the situation would never happen. The argument is intended to expose the immorality of the Bible.
So I follow what your conclusion is saying, but I don’t see how you are getting there. If you stick with your first “Objection”, if God commands it it must be so, then the act is not immoral. Your “reply” does not expose the objection. If God has the authority to do things that man does not, then where is the immorality on His part. If God can produce a greater good out of the suffering of the innocent Amelkites who were caught among their immoral peers and leaders, then those innocents are glorified, and the guilty are punished. This is God’s justice.

Incidentally, I am neither confirming nor denying Objection 1 as the correct answer regarding Saul. I am merely pointing out that Objection 1 is enough to show that “the Bible is immoral” is a specious conclusion.

And finally, I appreciate the thought exercise. I think it can be most fruitful for all of us. :o
 
You are right, that horse is dead ten times over. Next question.🙂
That particular horse won’t be dead until the Church admits that the old testament Jewish writings were nation building, political, pseudo religious, propaganda and not in any way, shape, or form, the “Word of God”.

The teachings of Jesus are heretical to the old Jewish religion of the time and have far more in common with Buddhism - which by the way was already being evangelized in Egypt long before Jesus was born.

Until Christianity throws out the bath water of the old testament, the baby will continue to suffocate.
 
It did not help too much. I am having trouble synthesizing what your point is. You did also say:So I follow what your conclusion is saying, but I don’t see how you are getting there. If you stick with your first “Objection”, if God commands it it must be so, then the act is not immoral. Your “reply” does not expose the objection. If God has the authority to do things that man does not, then where is the immorality on His part. If God can produce a greater good out of the suffering of the innocent Amelkites who were caught among their immoral peers and leaders, then those innocents are glorified, and the guilty are punished. This is God’s justice.

Incidentally, I am neither confirming nor denying Objection 1 as the correct answer regarding Saul. I am merely pointing out that Objection 1 is enough to show that “the Bible is immoral” is a specious conclusion.

And finally, I appreciate the thought exercise. I think it can be most fruitful for all of us. :o
My point is that the believer would have to commit genocide based on the Bible alone. The believer could be wrong about the infallibility of the Bible, but if he does not admit this then he has to accept the conclusion that he would commit genocide under certain situations trusting that the Bible is inerrant.

The thought experiment was designed to illustrate that in reality peoples trust in the Bible does not run this deep.
 
Does no one find this argument compelling? It is one of the reasons I left the Catholic faith.

[EDIT] - the original argument should read:

The believer may retort that of course it is morally licit to kill an infant if it is commanded by God, well possibly you are right, but how sure are you that God actually commanded this genocide? So sure that if you were one of King Saul’s soldiers you would kill a child based solely on the testimony of the Bible? Is your faith that strong?
I seriously doubt it. Probably the Church tought something you didn’t want to submit to.
 
That particular horse won’t be dead until the Church admits that the old testament Jewish writings were nation building, political, pseudo religious, propaganda and not in any way, shape, or form, the “Word of God”.

The teachings of Jesus are heretical to the old Jewish religion of the time and have far more in common with Buddhism - which by the way was already being evangelized in Egypt long before Jesus was born.

Until Christianity throws out the bath water of the old testament, the baby will continue to suffocate.
Unless you have studied the Bible (I have a B. A. in Bible studies) you can’t possibly understand/judge what the OT is all about. Simply dismissing it because you don’t understand it or are judging it according to modern sensibilities creates a straw man that is easily destroyed. I urge you to look more deeply into this as the Church actually sees it not as anti-Catholic atheistic websites and books do.

Jesus did not teach in opposition to the Mosaic Law–he fulfilled the Law and taught that not the smallest part of the Law is to be tossed aside, or else! Hardly sounds like a man who rejected his own heritage.

As to Jesus sounding like the Buddha, there are bound to be some concepts in common between them simply because whatever is true is true no matter who teaches it. However, the Buddha’s ultimate goals were far different from those of Jesus Christ. Comparisons can only go so far between them before they break down and diverge completely.
 
Ah, I thought we were talking about “what if” I was living in Saul’s time, living according to their sensibilities and their means of warfare. Putting myself in that place, that culture, that time, I would do the same as the Israelites did–and as all other cultures did at the time. Why do you keep on insisting on seeing their times through modern eyes, devoid of any understanding of what they were fighting for and why they were commanded to go to war? It doesn’t make any sense.
Firstly, you can offer no communicable evidence that supports the idea the tribes of Israel were commanded by God to massacre the innocent- yet you would commit genocide regardless. Secondly, it is very odd that you believe that cultural differenes can justify genocide. I don’t see how they can. If one is innocent one does not deserve to be punished. This is a basic precept of morality that even the CC acknowledges.

Yet the real problem for your argument is that you cannot offer a shred of evidence that suggests that God ordered this genocide - save for the evidence that ‘you just feel he did’ and yet you would massacre innocents in spite of this.

In this hypothetical situation is it not more rational to doubt this ‘feeling’ than subject innocents to a most horrendous death?

Most assuredly it is.
 
If one is innocent one does not deserve to be punished. This is a basic precept of morality that even the CC acknowledges.
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And there-in is the rub. The Amelkites were not innocent. They were pagans who as a people honored false gods and as a people they were wiped out. Many persons do not believe in guilt that extends beyond the individual, but whole nations have been held responsible for the sins of a portion of their citizens. The closest example that comes to mind was the case of Germany following the First World War. They were not exterminated, but were turned into a pauper nation wherein all suffered.
 
And there-in is the rub. The Amelkites were not innocent. They were pagans who as a people honored false gods and as a people they were wiped out. **Many persons do not believe in guilt that extends beyond the individual, but whole nations have been held responsible for the sins of a portion of their citizens. **The closest example that comes to mind was the case of Germany following the First World War. They were not exterminated, but were turned into a pauper nation wherein all suffered.
This in itself is an injustice.
 
This in itself is an injustice.
That might be to the modern sensibility, but it has not always been so. Many of our current ideas of social justice are of very recent vintage;hardly more than a century. It has been the Catholic Church both it’s hierarchy and its lay people who have been behind a lot of the changed perceptions. thumbsup:
 
Unless you have studied the Bible (I have a B. A. in Bible studies) you can’t possibly understand/judge what the OT is all about. Simply dismissing it because you don’t understand it or are judging it according to modern sensibilities creates a straw man that is easily destroyed. I urge you to look more deeply into this as the Church actually sees it not as anti-Catholic atheistic websites and books do.

Jesus did not teach in opposition to the Mosaic Law–he fulfilled the Law and taught that not the smallest part of the Law is to be tossed aside, or else! Hardly sounds like a man who rejected his own heritage.

As to Jesus sounding like the Buddha, there are bound to be some concepts in common between them simply because whatever is true is true no matter who teaches it. However, the Buddha’s ultimate goals were far different from those of Jesus Christ. Comparisons can only go so far between them before they break down and diverge completely.
A B.A. really only means you successfully learned what the accepted understanding of the instructors of the institution you received your degree from, taught you.
It means you have one particular academically accepted belief system regarding that subject. In and of itself, the degree means nothing more.

The “straw man” comment can just as easily be applied to many apologetic writings. I found most if not all the if/then arguments C.S. Lewis put forth in “Mere Christianity” to be very easily destroyed straw men.
To be fair, the collected radio talks Mr. Lewis gave that became “Mere Christianity” were not delivered to a spiritually educated non-Christian audience and only were intended to shore up the moral and faith of a basically Christian audience getting their faith beaten down by WWII.
In that light, it is quite effective - for the intended audience.

The problem you have, is that you do not look at the old testament objectively.
There is a pre-conceived interpretation given to you by the Church and most likely a similar one given to you by the academic institution you received your B.A. from.

Jesus was crucified because the authoritarian, “infallible” Jewish religious leaders of the time condemned Jesus as a blaspheming heretic.
You may point to Church spin on alleged quotes of Jesus, but circumstances of the crucifixion story clearly indicate Jesus was considered a severe threat to Judaism.

If you wish to truly understand the old testament, you will need to study it without the colored lenses you’ve used so far.
Examine it the way you would examine any other ancient mythology from any culture you don’t have a personal connection/bias with.

Modern Jewish writers are beginning to do just that, and their conclusions are pointing to Jews moving towards placing their own ancient mythology in the same category as the Scandinavians, Germans, Italians, Greeks, Egyptians, etc. long since have already done.

For starters, take a look at:
“Jewish History, Jewish Religion” & “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel” by Israel Shahak
“The Bible Unearthed” by Israel Finkelstein
“When And How The Jewish People Was Invented” by Shlomo Sand
“Toward and Open Tomb” by Michel Warschawski

Also, some writings by non-Jews:
“Testament” by John Romer
“The Mythic Past” by Thomas L. Thompson
“A history of God” & “Jerusalem: one city, three faiths” by Karen Armstrong

(I’ll mention most of these writers have a Ph.D, since that credential appears to be meaningful to you.)
 
btw,

Why do so many people resort to the most blatant “Moral Relativism” arguments in the attempt to explain away the ancient Jewish mythological writings?
 
When reading the Historical books of the OT, I view them not for historical fact, but for typology. I, for one, am far more interested in the wisdom literature and prophesy (Psalms, Isaiah) than say 1 Kings. Not saying who is “right” or “wrong” I’m just saying taking a literalist view is probably not in order.
 
Many persons do not believe in guilt that extends beyond the individual, but whole nations have been held responsible for the sins of a portion of their citizens.
This in itself is an injustice.
If God can produce a greater good out of the suffering of the innocent Amelkites who were caught among their immoral peers and leaders, then those innocents are glorified, and the guilty are punished.
Since the reward of the righteous is eternal life, there is no comparison between the death they suffered innocently and eternity in bliss with God as a result. Temporal suffering is infinitesimal to eternal joy.
 
Since the reward of the righteous is eternal life, there is no comparison between the death they suffered innocently and eternity in bliss with God as a result. Temporal suffering is infinitesimal to eternal joy.
Agreed. But now you are open to the charge of utiliarianism, indeed a very cold utilitarianism, a utilitarianism that the Catholic Church denounces.

If the God of the OT is the Christian God, the God of absolutes, the God of good and evil, then he would not coldly weigh up the costs and benefits of Genocide. This God could not do evil so that good may come from it.
 
Agreed. But now you are open to the charge of utiliarianism, indeed a very cold utilitarianism, a utilitarianism that the Catholic Church denounces.

If the God of the OT is the Christian God, the God of absolutes, the God of good and evil, then he would not coldly weigh up the costs and benefits of Genocide. This God could not do evil so that good may come from it.
However he may permit evil to persisrt to allow a greater good to come of it.
 
Did he directly order it?

My own opinon on this is that we shouldnt forget that the text in question is history. It is a historical narrative as seen through the eyes of the author. I hope I do not demean the Scriptures by saying that, If I do I stand corrected.

If I was being surrounded by a unit of terrorists and all of a sudden the roof fell on them and they were all killed, and as a result their families all starved, it would be very easy for me to say it was an act of God. In a real sense, given that God is all powerful it would have been.

Then you could claim that God was to blame for their families dying. That he was directly responsible. Why you cite this passage any more than any other manifestations of evil in the world just seems like a desperate attempt to discredit scripture.

I would be equally concerned if it reported that God stood back and did nothing, or at least i mean in your arguement, surely that is equally culpable? God is not Good?

Also in my analogy, i dont know what outcome in eternity God had in mind for the terrorists and more so their innocent families. The same is true from this peice of scripture.

You might as well ask about him letting Herod slaughter the innocent Children of Egypt.
 
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