Flying Spaghetti monster

[Lion_of_Narnia]

To whether what exists?

What a facile response

It’s clear what davidv meant and you chose to respond in a flippant manner. David made a pertinant point, that our subjective belief or disbelief has no bearing on objective reality (in this case the existence of demons)

 

[SFTor]

What a facile response

It’s clear what davidv meant and you chose to respond in a flippant manner. David made a pertinant point, that our subjective belief or disbelief has no bearing on objective reality (in this case the existence of demons)

Lion,

the question was not clear to me.

If the question is how the Gerasa/Gadara/Gergesa confusion relates to the existence of demons, it doesn’t.

My reason for not believing in demons is that I have never seen one, nor have I heard any reliable reports of their existence.

Best,

Tor

P.S, I have never felt, sensed, touched, or heard demons either.

 

[strngrnrth]

I have never seen nor heard irrefutable reports of the existence of a drug known as GHB, but I believe in it because I have heard many people’s reports of it and its effects on their own lives, seen video of a man reacting to it (though it could have easily been faked, he just jumped around acting dazed), when they would have had nothing material to gain by saying so, and the man faced embarrassment rather than reward for his actions, and the reports are fairly consistent among unconnected people. This is exactly the quality of evidence that those who haven’t experienced demons have to believe in demons. I have had experience with demons. A chunk of my young adult life took the shape it took because of that. It set me back in many ways and got me nothing – it just hurt me. I have lived a horror story. God has delivered me from it in ways that have included observable, physically mainfested miracles. I actually have trouble believing that there really are people who have never had an undeniable supernatural experience. But because they say so and have little to gain by making it up (except those who make a living denying the supernatural of course), I choose to take them at their word to foster an atmosphere of civility and charity among persons of varying beliefs. But I know beyond doubt from my own experience and that of millions of others that the unbelievers are simply mistaken. They might as well try to tell me there is no such thing as the pavement I walk on or the milk in my coffee.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hello James:

If you had made a list of prominent, distinguished people who believe in Communism it wouldn’t change my mind on that one either.

Best,

Tor

But at least it would help you decisively know you are not a Communist.

But it would be very unusual for a Christian to not believe in the existence of real demonic spiritual forces since this is the core cosmic struggle that led to man’s fall in the first place. I don’t believe that a Christian must believe in demons to call himself a Christian since we define ourselves in belief in Christ. But Christ did teach of demons so in a sense it would be incomplete and disordered to call oneself a Christian if one did not accept the same beliefs of Christ. And we know he drove out demons.

I didn’t check your profile - do you consider yourself Christian?

James

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Lion:

I don’t believe in demons.

Best,

Tor

P.S. The gospels tell the story differently. Gerasa is 31 miles from the shore of the Sea of Galilee, Gadara, 5, and Gergesa actually by the shore.

There may be a textual confusion of place names–for instance, there apparently was more than one Bethlehem in the region–and the writers were not intending to nail things down to exact GPS coordinates. However, a detail of this that would be discounted as insignificant in any other historical document of the period (or much later) gets strained through a gnat-siev when the NT is involved.

In regards to the existence of spiritual entities, from God on down but specifically demons–Christ explicitly accepted them.

His authority. Other things He did back up that authority–like rising from the dead (remember, the original topic? )

 

[SFTor]

I have never seen nor heard irrefutable reports of the existence of a drug known as GHB, but I believe in it because I have heard many people’s reports of it and its effects on their own lives, seen video of a man reacting to it (though it could have easily been faked, he just jumped around acting dazed), when they would have had nothing material to gain by saying so, and the man faced embarrassment rather than reward for his actions, and the reports are fairly consistent among unconnected people. This is exactly the quality of evidence that those who haven’t experienced demons have to believe in demons. I have had experience with demons. A chunk of my young adult life took the shape it took because of that. It set me back in many ways and got me nothing – it just hurt me. I have lived a horror story. God has delivered me from it in ways that have included observable, physically mainfested miracles. I actually have trouble believing that there really are people who have never had an undeniable supernatural experience. But because they say so and have little to gain by making it up (except those who make a living denying the supernatural of course), I choose to take them at their word to foster an atmosphere of civility and charity among persons of varying beliefs. But I know beyond doubt from my own experience and that of millions of others that the unbelievers are simply mistaken. They might as well try to tell me there is no such thing as the pavement I walk on or the milk in my coffee.

Are you using the term figuratively, or are you saying that an actual demon—a malevolent spirit—had taken possession of your body and mind?

I respect your experience, but I am not sure how you can back up the claim that “millions of others” have experienced the same thing.

Best,

Tor

 

[SFTor]

But at least it would help you decisively know you are not a Communist.

But it would be very unusual for a Christian to not believe in the existence of real demonic spiritual forces since this is the core cosmic struggle that led to man’s fall in the first place. I don’t believe that a Christian must believe in demons to call himself a Christian since we define ourselves in belief in Christ. But Christ did teach of demons so in a sense it would be incomplete and disordered to call oneself a Christian if one did not accept the same beliefs of Christ. And we know he drove out demons.

I didn’t check your profile - do you consider yourself Christian?

James

Hi James!

No, I cannot call myself a Christian.

Best,

Tor

 

[SFTor]

There may be a textual confusion of place names–for instance, there apparently was more than one Bethlehem in the region–and the writers were not intending to nail things down to exact GPS coordinates. However, a detail of this that would be discounted as insignificant in any other historical document of the period (or much later) gets strained through a gnat-siev when the NT is involved.

In regards to the existence of spiritual entities, from God on down but specifically demons–Christ explicitly accepted them.

His authority. Other things He did back up that authority–like rising from the dead (remember, the original topic? )

Lion,

I guess this is part of the reason I can’t call myself a Christian. I am asked to believe things that go against my core sensibilities. I have to accept that there was a war in heaven, and that the rebellious creatures who lost now live in a separate place that is very unpleasant, where I too will have to go if I don’t believe in Jesus. I have to believe that Jesus thought it was a good idea to destroy 500 or so perfectly fine pigs. (Why didn’t he just send the demons into orbit or something?) What about the poor owners? How did they feed their kids after something like that?

So I just don’t believe, and I am fine with that.

Best,

Tor

 

[CentralFLJames]

Lion,

I guess this is part of the reason I can’t call myself a Christian. I am asked to believe things that go against my core sensibilities. I have to accept that there was a war in heaven, and that the rebellious creatures who lost now live in a separate place that is very unpleasant, where I too will have to go if I don’t believe in Jesus. I have to believe that Jesus thought it was a good idea to destroy 500 or so perfectly fine pigs. (Why didn’t he just send the demons into orbit or something?) What about the poor owners? How did they feed their kids after something like that?

So I just don’t believe, and I am fine with that.

Best,

Tor

Psssst, Jews didn’t eat swine - not kosher. This sort of livestock was probably sold to the Gentiles and the Romans so they could pay Caesar’s tax with money cleverly taken from Caesar’s and his followers appetite for unclean things.

For all we know this loss of swine income could have been the straw that broke Caesar’s piggy bank and which led to the Roman’s coming to sack Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple 40 years later.

James

 

[SFTor]

Psssst, Jews didn’t eat swine - not kosher. This sort of livestock was probably sold to the Gentiles and the Romans so they could pay Caesar’s tax with money cleverly taken from Caesar’s and his followers appetite for unclean things.

For all we know this loss of swine income could have been the straw that broke Caesar’s piggy bank and which led to the Roman’s coming to sack Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple 40 years later.

James

Actually, Gadara, Gerasa, and Gergesa were not in Judea. They were in the adjoining territory known as the Decapolis. I don’t know whether they practiced Judaism there, or whether they enjoyed a good ham sandwich from time to time.

Best,

Tor

P.S. A little additional research has shown that Gadara an Gerasa were in the Decapolis, which had a Hellenistic culture (hence the swine.) If it happened in Gergesa they would have been in Israel, in which case your theory may be good to go.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Lion,

I guess this is part of the reason I can’t call myself a Christian. I am asked to believe things that go against my core sensibilities. I have to accept that there was a war in heaven, and that the rebellious creatures who lost now live in a separate place that is very unpleasant, where I too will have to go if I don’t believe in Jesus. I have to believe that Jesus thought it was a good idea to destroy 500 or so perfectly fine pigs. (Why didn’t he just send the demons into orbit or something?) What about the poor owners? How did they feed their kids after something like that?

So I just don’t believe, and I am fine with that.

Best,

Tor

Tor:

I think you DO have some fine moral sensibilities–including not believing in something for the ONLY honest reason for disbelieving something–because you think its NOT true–and I think God grants a lot of slack for that–what with all the assaults on reason and logic (let alone the Faith) that have been intensifying for the last 200 or so years.

As for the swine–I tend to think it was the pigs choice–the only other choice they had was to be demon hosts–and pigs are too sensible for that–and like the fig tree He cursed, Jesus wanted to make a very visible, very visceral point on his followers. The owners–well would you want to eat a ham dinner that might still have demons hanging around? (in the context of 1st century belief, NOT your demon discounting viewpoint)

 

[SFTor]

Tor:

I think you DO have some fine moral sensibilities–including not believing in something for the ONLY honest reason for disbelieving something–because you think its NOT true–and I think God grants a lot of slack for that–what with all the assaults on reason and logic (let alone the Faith) that have been intensifying for the last 200 or so years.

As for the swine–I tend to think it was the pigs choice–the only other choice they had was to be demon hosts–and pigs are too sensible for that–and like the fig tree He cursed, Jesus wanted to make a very visible, very visceral point on his followers. The owners–well would you want to eat a ham dinner that might still have demons hanging around? (in the context of 1st century belief, NOT your demon discounting viewpoint)

Pig suicide. I love it. It’s worthy of a movie.

And thank you for your kind words. I do my best, I can assure you of that.

Best,

Tor

 

[Spirithound]

Actually, Gadara, Gerasa, and Gergesa were not in Judea. They were in the adjoining territory known as the Decapolis. I don’t know whether they practiced Judaism there, or whether they enjoyed a good ham sandwich from time to time.

Best,

Tor

P.S. A little additional research has shown that Gadara an Gerasa were in the Decapolis, which had a Hellenistic culture (hence the swine.) If it happened in Gergesa they would have been in Israel, in which case your theory may be good to go.

James didn’t say those places were in Judea, but it does give a neat interpretation if a Jew was somehow connected to that herd of pigs.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Firstly I should say that I am a Catholic however I have been having trouble with this question:

Why should someone believe Jesus rose from the grave? (Please do not give reasons such as the disciples held that what they saw was true even during martyrdom)

How does this differ from the reason that one should not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Richard Dawking’s invention) or invisible unicorns?

Because the Risen Christ makes a difference to people - to the entire creation: if beings alien to us exist, He is their Lord as well as ours. The FSM has no practical importance or value, nor do IPUs (= invisible pink unicorns). They have no​

• apostles
• martyrs
• saints
• prophets
• teachers
• evangelists
• gospel
• moral content
• communion with believers
• salvation
• purification
• etc…
  All this, & far far far far more, is in, to, from, & for & by Jesus Christ. The universe is not IPU-centred; it is Christ-ordained, Christ-centred, & is impossible, even in principle, without Christ: He is what all creation, with absolutely no exception of any kind in way whatever, is for. That is not true of any creation whatever. Evolution is for Him, just like everything else that is not God. This is where Calvinism is stronger than Catholicism; for it emphasises the Majesty & Sovereignty of God & His Universal Providence very strongly.

IOW, to be a creature is to be created for a purpose, a goal, an end; this belongs to the very idea of being a creature, it is not something super-added. (Which is one reason Hell is such a waste.)

The sooner people get over the idea that the universe is created for us or is meaningless, the better.

Dawkins is reckoning without Jesus Christ - which makes his ideas ultimately incoherent.

It may seem odd to emphasise the total & utter dependence of all creation on Christ so much, given the question; but it is only if we can glimpse something of what might be called His “function” in creation that we shall be able to see how far greater He is than tosh & bosh like the FSMor IPUs Who He is, & what He does is of vast importance for indicating an answer to your question

 

[CentralFLJames]

Because the Risen Christ makes a difference to people - to the entire creation: if beings alien to us exist, He is their Lord as well as ours. The FSM has no practical importance or value, nor do IPUs (= invisible pink unicorns). They have no​

• apostles
• martyrs
• saints
• prophets
• teachers
• evangelists
• gospel
• moral content
• communion with believers
• salvation
• purification
• etc…
  All this, & far far far far more, is in, to, from, & for & by Jesus Christ. The universe is not IPU-centred; it is Christ-ordained, Christ-centred, & is impossible, even in principle, without Christ: He is what all creation, with absolutely no exception of any kind in way whatever, is for. That is not true of any creation whatever. Evolution is for Him, just like everything else that is not God. This is where Calvinism is stronger than Catholicism; for it emphasises the Majesty & Sovereignty of God & His Universal Providence very strongly.

IOW, to be a creature is to be created for a purpose, a goal, an end; this belongs to the very idea of being a creature, it is not something super-added. (Which is one reason Hell is such a waste.)

The sooner people get over the idea that the universe is created for us or is meaningless, the better.

Dawkins is reckoning without Jesus Christ - which makes his ideas ultimately incoherent.

It may seem odd to emphasise the total & utter dependence of all creation on Christ so much, given the question; but it is only if we can glimpse something of what might be called His “function” in creation that we shall be able to see how far greater He is than tosh & bosh like the FSMor IPUs Who He is, & what He does is of vast importance for indicating an answer to your question

Excelllent GoG. I concur.
98% of the planet is clueless - even within a large body of Christianity. They just don’t get it - “it ain’t about us at all”. It’s ALL about the greater glory of Jesus - Son of God. That is why ALL of Creation exists. Jesus saw in Himself the beatific vision of man a mere created creature that God could animate with His spirit. Who could ever conceive that God in His 2nd person could fall in love with his creatures? It is because Jesus wants brothers and sisters by which to further honor and express love to God the Father. How lucky we are to even have the good fortune to find ourselves in a state of life and to discover that The Creator is benevolent!

Thank God for God!

James

 

[SFTor]

Excelllent GoG. I concur.
98% of the planet is clueless - even within a large body of Christianity. They just don’t get it - “it ain’t about us at all”. It’s ALL about the greater glory of Jesus - Son of God. That is why ALL of Creation exists. Jesus saw in Himself the beatific vision of man a mere created creature that God could animate with His spirit. Who could ever conceive that God in His 2nd person could fall in love with his creatures? It is because Jesus wants brothers and sisters by which to further honor and express love to God the Father. How lucky we are to even have the good fortune to find ourselves in a state of life and to discover that The Creator is benevolent!

Thank God for God!

James

The Jesus you’re referring to probably didn’t even exist.

Best,

Tor

 

[Greg27]

I think the FSM is meant to be more of a caricature of the (perceived) stupidity of theism and theistic belief than a serious argument against God’s existence. If there is an analogy, it is the argument that belief in God is as unfounded and unjustified as belief in faries and Santa Claus by adults. I personally think this argument is not correct, even though I consider myself agnostic. Theists have made out some good possible reasons for believing God exists, especially during the medieval period.

 

[melbourne_guy]

The Flying spaghetti monster was actually created because christians wanted the bible taught in schools and preferably science classes. The book has no science and relies on hearsay from people who thought the earth was flat. Well if the bible can be taught in school as fact then why not the flying spahetti monster, they both rely on witness testimony as their only evidence. In fact why not teach scientology, islam, buddhism, hinduism, paganism etc. You shouldnt give precendence to one religion (christianity) which relies on faith that people living in the desert 2000 years ago werent lying, you should allow all religions to have their say or none.

 

[Spirithound]

The Jesus you’re referring to probably didn’t even exist.

Best,

Tor

You mean he’s giving an inaccurate description of the historical Jesus, or that even the historical Jesus never happened?

 

[nuntym]

The Jesus you’re referring to probably didn’t even exist.

Best,

Tor

Well, SFTor, even if Jesus is not real, then the idea of Jesus is the greatest myth the world has ever known, for this “myth” has turned this world for the better…as I tried to point it out in another topic, and thus must be a gift from God…IF God really exists.