FOA, Please teach us your new religion

[swariffin]

Dear FoA,

I think you should remember your own quotation in another thread as follow :

Jesus must be David’s own son resurrected into anyway otherwise God’s promise to David is broken. David’s kingdom would be everlasting and so would his son’s, so you can’t have one break in generations without a king on the throne. And there is unless you believe Jesus is David’s real son. That’s why there was a virgin birth, not so God can be incarnated as a man but because Jesus is resurrected from the dead, firstborn of the dead.

Since you believe the bible, even in Sola Scriptura basis, could you please tell us how and why you come out into your interpretation of the bible. We will discuss other matter, but first, let us talk this issue only. As far as I know, your interpretation does not agree with Christianity, Islam and Judaism. In your quotation, it sounds like you are referring to Reincarnation, which is taught in Buddhism. Please note that by mentioning Buddhism, I do not mean to make any comment in the belief. I promise only to ask curiousity questions until I understand your logic.

 

[paarsurrey]

Since you believe the bible, even in Sola Scriptura basis, could you please tell us how and why you come out into your interpretation of the bible. We will discuss other matter, but first, let us talk this issue only. As far as I know, your interpretation does not agree with Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

I promise only to ask curiousity questions until I understand your logic.

Hi friend swariffin!

I think **Faith of Abraham **has not noticed this thread perhaps. Please send him a PM that you have started a new thread in his name.

For me, there cannot be any new religion after Muhammad.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma’idah

[5:4] Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of any other than Allah; and that which has been strangled; and that which has been beaten to death; and that which has been killed by a fall and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols. And forbidden is also this that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear ME. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, and is Merciful.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=5

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

I think you should remember your own quotation in another thread as follow :

Jesus must be David’s own son resurrected into anyway otherwise God’s promise to David is broken. David’s kingdom would be everlasting and so would his son’s, so you can’t have one break in generations without a king on the throne. And there is unless you believe Jesus is David’s real son. That’s why there was a virgin birth, not so God can be incarnated as a man but because Jesus is resurrected from the dead, firstborn of the dead.

Since you believe the bible, even in Sola Scriptura basis, could you please tell us how and why you come out into your interpretation of the bible. We will discuss other matter, but first, let us talk this issue only. As far as I know, your interpretation does not agree with Christianity, Islam and Judaism. In your quotation, it sounds like you are referring to Reincarnation, which is taught in Buddhism. Please note that by mentioning Buddhism, I do not mean to make any comment in the belief. I promise only to ask curiousity questions until I understand your logic.

I think it is a different belief that merges Christianity and Islam a bit, I kind of hate to call it a new religion.

It would just be resurrection same as Jesus was resurrected after the cross, only God would make it happen in Mary. Not like a reincarnation of the same spirit but different body. Jesus has the same flesh as he did when he was killed as a child of David. God just resurrected the bones as it says He does in Ezekiel, and the Quran says God made Jesus from dust like Adam.

We know God did something unusual to make a baby appear without intercourse. The question is why. I don’t accept that it was because God turned into a man in her womb, for all the reasons I’ve ever given: Jesus prayed to God, needed God to give him power and save his life, etc. Jesus rules like God but wasn’t born a God.

So I go back to the original promise of Messiah to David. If it is that David would never fail to have a son on the throne, and he didn’t for a long time after Babylon, that would seem to be the reason, Messiah’s father had to be a king on the throne so it could go from a king to Jesus to keep the promise. It couldn’t be from Mary because she wasn’t a sitting queen, and also queens aren’t mentioned in the promise, only men and kings, never failing a man on the throne.

Then we saw Solomon got a conditional promise but it was broken because he followed other gods. Only David would seem to have the promise to pass to his own son. So the most reasonable son would be someone like Jesus who died for the sins of another, David’s son that died for his sin.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

This is also exactly the description of that son of David’s.

So that’s basically it, I’ve posted a lot of other verses too, like the odd question of Nicodemus that a child could be born twice, that’s a hint to it. And Jesus being first begotten of the dead. Elsewhere it says first begotten of God, but God isn’t dead. So put 2 and 2 together and Jesus was the first man born after death, and in a direct way being caused by God.

 

[swariffin]

Dear FoA and Paarsurrey,

Hello my brothers, I noticed your posting. Please allow me several days off. I have an out-of-town duty which will hinder my ability to engage in this forum. Sorry guys.

 

[swariffin]

It would just be resurrection same as Jesus was resurrected after the cross, only God would make it happen in Mary. Not like a reincarnation of the same spirit but different body. Jesus has the same flesh as he did when he was killed as a child of David. God just resurrected the bones as it says He does in Ezekiel, and the Quran says God made Jesus from dust like Adam.

So I go back to the original promise of Messiah to David. If it is that David would never fail to have a son on the throne, and he didn’t for a long time after Babylon, that would seem to be the reason, Messiah’s father had to be a king on the throne so it could go from a king to Jesus to keep the promise. It couldn’t be from Mary because she wasn’t a sitting queen, and also queens aren’t mentioned in the promise, only men and kings, never failing a man on the throne.

So that’s basically it, I’ve posted a lot of other verses too, like the odd question of Nicodemus that a child could be born twice, that’s a hint to it. And Jesus being first begotten of the dead. Elsewhere it says first begotten of God, but God isn’t dead. So put 2 and 2 together and Jesus was the first man born after death, and in a direct way being caused by God.

Dear FoA,

I deleted some of your view for simplicity reason. I agree with your objection. Let us not called it a new religion. Let’s call it a new interpretation.

First, why do you think that Jesus was the illegitimate son of David from his llegitimate approach to Betsheba, resurrected in the womb? From all story about Jesus ressurected somebody, even to His own resurrection, none of them in the womb of other woman. Why Jesus existence through the womb of Mary is called resurrection? Logically and humanly speaking, if you mentioned that Jesus and that illegitimate son of David is the same spirit and same flesh, then it should be true that Betsheba and Mary has some high level of compatibility of DNA and Blood type. Is it true according to you? Off course, God can do so, but that will bring an implication that Betsheba and Mary would be called as a same person. I don’t understand that because we know that Mary and Batsheba cannot be the same person, especially if you relate that to Genesis 3:15-17.

A previously living person, died, and the spirit reborn from another woman with different flesh is reincarnation. Same flesh? that will subject to another logical implications that must be satisfied. Right now, I will not touch the issue that you don’t believe that Jesus is the word of God, and become human. That will be a subject of another thread.

Second. Prior to Betsheba, David has married to many other women and had many other children. None of them was mentioned so closely like Salomon. In that case, there was no indication that they were as bad as Salomon. were they not? Otherwise, they would be remembered by the writer of their bad behavior and would be mentioned in the book of Samuel. In that case, why the illegitimate son of David is the chosen one to be ressurected in Mary’s womb? Again, 2 Samuel 12:24 mentioned that The LORD loves Salomon. It means that Salomon was favored by God, does it not? Why the illegitimate son was so special to God?

Third. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus, and Nicodemus said that How can an old man like him be reborn? Jesus did not say that reborn means that a man must be resurrected by being born in the same flesh and spirit by another woman. Jesus meant that reborn was by means of baptism. How do you relate Nicodemus story with you view of resurrection via another womb?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

I deleted some of your view for simplicity reason. I agree with your objection. Let us not called it a new religion. Let’s call it a new interpretation.

First, why do you think that Jesus was the illegitimate son of David from his llegitimate approach to Betsheba, resurrected in the womb?

Jesus is as legitimate as Solomon being his older brother, but God needed to kill him so David’s enemies wouldn’t blaspheme God. They needed to see David couldn’t get away with having Uriah killed. So Jesus helped to save his father’s kingdom, and paid for David’s sin.

From all story about Jesus ressurected somebody, even to His own resurrection, none of them in the womb of other woman. Why Jesus existence through the womb of Mary is called resurrection? Logically and humanly speaking, if you mentioned that Jesus and that illegitimate son of David is the same spirit and same flesh, then it should be true that Betsheba and Mary has some high level of compatibility of DNA and Blood type. Is it true according to you? Off course, God can do so, but that will bring an implication that Betsheba and Mary would be called as a same person. I don’t understand that because we know that Mary and Batsheba cannot be the same person, especially if you relate that to Genesis 3:15-17.

It would be no different than a modern surrogate mother holding an embryo from other parents.

A previously living person, died, and the spirit reborn from another woman with different flesh is reincarnation. Same flesh? that will subject to another logical implications that must be satisfied. Right now, I will not touch the issue that you don’t believe that Jesus is the word of God, and become human. That will be a subject of another thread.

It would still be his body and spirit so it is still resurrection, where he is resurrected doesn’t affect that. Reincarnation is being born into different flesh.

Second. Prior to Betsheba, David has married to many other women and had many other children. None of them was mentioned so closely like Salomon. In that case, there was no indication that they were as bad as Salomon. were they not? Otherwise, they would be remembered by the writer of their bad behavior and would be mentioned in the book of Samuel. In that case, why the illegitimate son of David is the chosen one to be ressurected in Mary’s womb? Again, 2 Samuel 12:24 mentioned that The LORD loves Salomon. It means that Salomon was favored by God, does it not? Why the illegitimate son was so special to God?

To me there is a certain beauty that God would give this child, who suffered for his father David, his father’s kingdom. Aside from the prophecies.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

You can’t come out of anything drier than dead bones.

Ezekiel 37:1-2 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Third. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus, and Nicodemus said that How can an old man like him be reborn? Jesus did not say that reborn means that a man must be resurrected by being born in the same flesh and spirit by another woman. Jesus meant that reborn was by means of baptism. How do you relate Nicodemus story with you view of resurrection via another womb?

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is talking about first being born of the flesh through sex, and again through resurrection.

 

[swariffin]

Dear FoA,

Why do you think the first born son of David out of his relationship with Batsheba is legitimate? When David slept with her, she was a legal wife of Uriah. Definitely it was illegitimate. It supposed to be Haram in Islam and in any religion or human culture in the world.

Second, Mary cannot be called a surrogate mother of Jesus (whom the first appearance in this world was through Betsheba, according to you). In term of flesh, compatibility eventhough how small the probability, it is still possible. Indeed God understand the theory of Quantum Mechanics. But in spirituality, Mary and Betsheba are totally different. They cannot be compared to one another. Batsheba was born as the decendant of Adam and Eve OUTSIDE the Paradise, i.e. out of the will and love of God. Mary, on the other hand, was a promised and part of the plan of God Himself (Gen 3:15). Mary’s existence in this world was **in accordance **with God’s plan, while Betsheba was not.

Third. I still don’t understand your logic about being reborn from the story of Nicodemus you quoted. Based on your logic, it seems to me that not even a single person will ever enter heaven, because no other human except Jesus (according to you) ever being resurrected in another womb and being born for the second time, in the same flesh and spirit to avoid reincarnation.

John 3:6. That is born of flesh is flesh, that is born of spirit is spirit. It means that in baptism a person is reborn in spirit. That does not mean that such person must be born again in flesh for the second time. I don’t understand why you conclude that a man must be reborn again in flesh while he has been reborn in spirit through baptism from this verse.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Why do you think the first born son of David out of his relationship with Batsheba is legitimate? When David slept with her, she was a legal wife of Uriah. Definitely it was illegitimate. It supposed to be Haram in Islam and in any religion or human culture in the world.

They were married when she had Jesus.

2 Samuel 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

Second, Mary cannot be called a surrogate mother of Jesus (whom the first appearance in this world was through Betsheba, according to you).

No Mary is not Bathsheba, they are two different women.

In term of flesh, compatibility eventhough how small the probability, it is still possible. Indeed God understand the theory of Quantum Mechanics. But in spirituality, Mary and Betsheba are totally different. They cannot be compared to one another. Batsheba was born as the decendant of Adam and Eve OUTSIDE the Paradise, i.e. out of the will and love of God. Mary, on the other hand, was a promised and part of the plan of God Himself (Gen 3:15). Mary’s existence in this world was **in accordance **with God’s plan, while Betsheba was not.

They don’t have to be alike.

Third. I still don’t understand your logic about being reborn from the story of Nicodemus you quoted. Based on your logic, it seems to me that not even a single person will ever enter heaven, because no other human except Jesus (according to you) ever being resurrected in another womb and being born for the second time, in the same flesh and spirit to avoid reincarnation.

John 3:6. That is born of flesh is flesh, that is born of spirit is spirit. It means that in baptism a person is reborn in spirit. That does not mean that such person must be born again in flesh for the second time. I don’t understand why you conclude that a man must be reborn again in flesh while he has been reborn in spirit through baptism from this verse.

Everyone is born of flesh through sex, then born of the spirit through resurrection.

Only Jesus was resurrected in the womb as far as I believe.

 

[swariffin]

Dear FoA,

In 2 Samuel 11:4-5, it is clear that David slept with Betsheba, prior to the legal marriage you mentioned in verse 27. In verse 5, it is clear that Betsheba was pregnant after David slept with her.

If you believe that only Jesus was resurrected through another womb, then according to your interpretation it will be only Jesus who will enter heaven. Is that what you mean?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

In 2 Samuel 11:4-5, it is clear that David slept with Betsheba, prior to the legal marriage you mentioned in verse 27. In verse 5, it is clear that Betsheba was pregnant after David slept with her.

If you believe that only Jesus was resurrected through another womb, then according to your interpretation it will be only Jesus who will enter heaven. Is that what you mean?

Yeah that would make Jesus a mamzer in his first life, which went away once he died and was conceived again of the spirit through resurrection born through Mary.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

No, people are resurrected wherever they are, in the grave, desert, oceans, etc. Jesus was just born through the womb again so he can have a second chance to inherit David’s kingdom since his first chance was spoiled by David’s sin.

And so David’s promise would be kept that he would always have a son on the throne, which seemed to be broken once there was no man on the throne after Babylon overthrew it.

 

[swariffin]

Dear FoA,

In this case, you agree with the idea of that the first son born from David and Betsheba was indeed illegitimate. How would God sent Jesus to be a mamzer, and while doing nothing in this world, be dead, and resurrected thousands years later in a womb of another woman? and already be called the Messiah? During the second birth, God was more careful by introducing the figure of Joseph to make Jesus not being another mamzer. Sounds like God was careless in His first attempt sending Jesus to this world according to your interpretation.

Yes indeed. God can resurrect any body from the grave, dessert, the astronauts died in the space shuttle accidents, or any other persons. You also agreed that only Jesus whom the resurrection was in another womb and be born again. So, in that case, only Jesus satisfies the requirement you interpret from John 3:4-5. So, only Jesus is qualified to enter the Kingdom of God. What did Jesus mean in the gospel of John (I forget the chapter and verses) when He said “In my Father’s house there are many places, and I will go there to prepare the places for you”. Even the JW believe there will be 144.000 people will enter heaven, and the Catholics believe it should be much more, as long as we meet the criteria.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

In this case, you agree with the idea of that the first son born from David and Betsheba was indeed illegitimate. How would God sent Jesus to be a mamzer, and while doing nothing in this world, be dead, and resurrected thousands years later in a womb of another woman? and already be called the Messiah? During the second birth, God was more careful by introducing the figure of Joseph to make Jesus not being another mamzer. Sounds like God was careless in His first attempt sending Jesus to this world according to your interpretation.

I wouldn’t ever say God is careless, rather God had plans for Jesus since He knew Solomon’s Kingdom would crumble and David’s own son was needed many years later to keep the covenant. Remember Isaiah 53 also describes a Messiah that is seen as scum. But died and resurrected, Jesus was born of the spirit and so not a mamzer anymore with Mary.

Yes indeed. God can resurrect any body from the grave, dessert, the astronauts died in the space shuttle accidents, or any other persons. You also agreed that only Jesus whom the resurrection was in another womb and be born again. So, in that case, only Jesus satisfies the requirement you interpret from John 3:4-5. So, only Jesus is qualified to enter the Kingdom of God. What did Jesus mean in the gospel of John (I forget the chapter and verses) when He said “In my Father’s house there are many places, and I will go there to prepare the places for you”. Even the JW believe there will be 144.000 people will enter heaven, and the Catholics believe it should be much more, as long as we meet the criteria.

Jesus was talking about any birth from flesh, then resurrection by the spirit. Only Nicodemus implied being born again from the womb. I’m not saying only those resurrected come from the womb, that only applied to Jesus. But what Nicodemus said was pertinent to that.