Folding Hands

[CB_Catholic]

The orans is a venerable prayer posture, but I would like to point out that its appropriateness at mass is highly questionable at best. I am not responding to you because you do it at mas–after all, you didn’t say that, and I am not implying you are–but I am responding to you only to clarify for later readers.

There exists a 1997 document of the Holy See signed by eight dicasteries, including the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, called Ecclesia de mysterio.

Article 6 paragraph 2 states:

The bold is mine. Since the Roman Missal is clear in that it only commands priests (and bishops, obviously) to raise their hands in the orans posture and mentions no one else, not even deacons, it seems then that according to Ecclesia de mysterio that it is improper and perhaps even a grave abuse for the lay faithful to assume the orans posture at mass.

I realize you are trying to be helpful, but you might like to know that this argument about the Orans posture at Mass has been going on in CAF for years. My only response to this is that I doubt, really doubt, if God cares about it that much. That is all I have to say on the subject.

 

[TimothyH]

I overheard Father M instructing the new altar servers the other day. He said, “Remember when you fold your hands–fingers pointing to heaven.”

It’s the first position for our new altar servers.

There is a proper posture for altar servers and how the hands are held is part of that posture.

Hands should be palm to palm, right thumb over the left thumb to form the shape of a cross. Elbows should rest naturally at the sides. Forearms should be at about a 45 degree angle. Fingers should not point parallel to the floor (too low) nor should the thumbs or wrists be against the chest with fingers pointed at the face or chin (too high).

This is proper arm and hand posture for altar servers, both adults and children, when they are not sitting or not doing anything which requires use of the hands.

-Tim-

 

[YoungTradCath]

I realize you are trying to be helpful, but you might like to know that this argument about the Orans posture at Mass has been going on in CAF for years. My only response to this is that I doubt, really doubt, if God cares about it that much. That is all I have to say on the subject.

Yes, I’ve seen many of these arguments before on the subject, but I’ve never seen anyone quote the document at hand.

It doesn’t matter if “God cares.” I’m sure God wouldn’t really “care” if we left out the Gloria or started letting people self-communicate, but since proper authority requires the Gloria on certain days and absolutely forbids laity self-communicating, we don’t do it, and if we do otherwise intentionally, that is a sin. God gave Peter the Keys, Peter is using those Keys, and if someone knowingly goes against Peter’s use of those Keys, then that person is actively sinning. I don’t know how anyone could conceivably convince himself otherwise.

 

[grandfather]

Yes, I’ve seen many of these arguments before on the subject, but I’ve never seen anyone quote the document at hand.

It doesn’t matter if “God cares.” I’m sure God wouldn’t really “care” if we left out the Gloria or started letting people self-communicate, but since proper authority requires the Gloria on certain days and absolutely forbids laity self-communicating, we don’t do it, and if we do otherwise intentionally, that is a sin. God gave Peter the Keys, Peter is using those Keys, and if someone knowingly goes against Peter’s use of those Keys, then that person is actively sinning. I don’t know how anyone could conceivably convince himself otherwise.

It is the position of your young heart that matters. Get that right and the hands will take care of themselves.

You do not need to worry about the position of anyone else’s heart, or hands. It is not your job. Pray for their souls and let God take care of how they hold their hands.

Peter’s keys are tools used for proclaiming dogmatic truths of the faith. There is a difference between dogma and discipline. Dogma can not change. Discipline can change, how the faith is practiced. How we receive communion, when the Gloria is said or not said, what language the Mass is in, or how we hold our hands are disciplines, not dogma.

Asserting the claim that improper hand position at Mass is sinful, because it is a challenge to the authority of the pope to proclaim dogma is mistaken, but also a sign of misdirected religious zeal.

You are very zealous and if your religious zeal is properly directed you will be also a holy man. Jesus is at the door of your heart knocking. He also calls your name while He knocks. The God of infinite power and glory wants to enter into you so you will be one being with Him. Pay attention to that. Pay attention to what God is doing with you.

Don’t be distracted from this intimacy God is calling you to, by the concern over whether or not people at Mass have their hands in the right position, or anything else.

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes, I’ve seen many of these arguments before on the subject, but I’ve never seen anyone quote the document at hand.

You just have not been around long enough (see also here).

 

[Carolus_Martell]

Well I’m a product of the nuns and because they thought it was important I do too.

imo for those that are not ashamed to publicly adore God the top picture is for the Consecration, Gospel, public displaying of the Monstrance etc. While the relaxed position is appropriate any most any other time your kneeling.

Little things like that will help the faithful lock down any wandering eyes or mental drifting. Also our deportment in church is constantly being evaluated by the children in attendance.

 

[rhiannonh]

I’m curious. Is there a way we are supposed to fold our hands? When I had a nun in first grade, we always folded our hands palms together as such

http://afteramerica.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/prayer-hands.jpg

As time went on of course, it’s easier to fold hands with fingers interlocking like this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2Ks_Im1Ni...0/Jesus_Prayer_Hands_Bacjgrouds_Wallpaper.jpg

I know it isn’t all-important. I’m just curious if one of these is sanctioned. It just seems like it takes more to do it the first way, since you have to hold your hands together, where your fingers hold your hands together in the second form.

When serving we close our hands as of the second image or they are on our knees

 

[Evan]

There is a proper posture for altar servers and how the hands are held is part of that posture.

Hands should be palm to palm, right thumb over the left thumb to form the shape of a cross. Elbows should rest naturally at the sides. Forearms should be at about a 45 degree angle. Fingers should not point parallel to the floor (too low) nor should the thumbs or wrists be against the chest with fingers pointed at the face or chin (too high).

This is proper arm and hand posture for altar servers, both adults and children, when they are not sitting or not doing anything which requires use of the hands.

-Tim-

Tim, this agrees what how Fr Lavin taught us if we were to serve at the Cathedral in Baker (Baker City now) in the 60’s. It’s way the servers do it at our parish and in the local Korean parish, however, in the Korean parish they where white gloves too (at least when the Bishop is there).

 

[rhiannonh]

Worrying about the position of your hands is a waste of time, effort and purpose. If you are concentrating on this you are not concentrating on your prayer(s). God does not care what position your hands are in…He care s about your heart.

Be you

 

[rhiannonh]

Tim, this agrees what how Fr Lavin taught us if we were to serve at the Cathedral in Baker (Baker City now) in the 60’s. It’s way the servers do it at our parish and in the local Korean parish, however, in the Korean parish they where white gloves too (at least when the Bishop is there).

You have to do as the team does and nothing else

 

[LiseTravis]

I wish I could remember where I read this, since it has stuck with me ever since: When we are “alone with God”, we intertwine our fingers as a symbol of this intimate union- our prayers are private & personal ( I do this when praying before a crucifix or when making a spiritual communion). When we are praying as part of the church, we point our fingers upward, sending our prayers to Heaven (I do this during the Consecration). I don’t think there is a right way or a wrong way for the congregation- this is a sort of personal devotion of mine. I do not, however, feel it is appropriate for the congregation to use the orans posture doing Mass- that is for the priest & deacons. Just my 2 cents worth here.