Deacon Ed:
Your post completely ignores znamenny which formed a particularly Russian “sound” and which was heavily influenced by folk music. The later demestvenny which provided an alternative for festive occasions seems to have completely died out by the 18th century.
Yes but, we are speaking of the evolution established at the roots of Christian liturgical music. This was mainly established in the first three centuries and then Constantinople, and then the schism, diverging paths and re-evaluation of theory due to differing cultural influences nearly a century later for the time periods you just mentioned. Influence is not the same as the basis of its evolution after nearly a century. The basis did not change.
Deacon Ed:
Much of what you posted seems more relevant to the development of the octoechos which is similar to the concept of mode in Gregorian Chant and which finds resonance in the Arabic concept of maqam which is still used in Melkite liturgies today. This concept developed during the 10th to 14th centuries.
Yes correct. After the schism more eastern influence was brought to bear on the form already established. The 8th -14th century you are commenting on is not the early Church however, which is the point I was making as to what formed the basis and what was avoided and why.
Deacon Ed:
As for your claim that Augustine discussed Greek music in his Confessions – again, I have to disagree. In fact, in searching his writings I cannot find a single condemnation of music, let alone Greek music.
He doesn’t mention it by name, but the description he gave is precisely that of the Greek and also demonstrates his keen understanding of it, Your later quote was the one I was thinking of that confirms from historical sources that nature of Greek “popular” music. (I hesitate using the word popular for Greek music because it is not really appropriate. But it was the music of the day) Augustine’s writing speaks out against this music and distinguishes it as from Greek in format from his description. That description is comensurate with all historical understanding of the form. An understanding of the Greek mindset of music and its purpose is exactly the reason Augustine uses the term “sinned grievously” because he is intimately aware of the dangers it posed to Christianity. In its day, instrumental music (the aulos in particular) was associated with pagan rituals as the “popular” music of the day and was strenuously avoided. Because of its beauty however, it was particularly attractive to anyone listening, but given its strong association with a pagan mindset, Augustine expresses his concerns eloquently. This is a further separation of “popular” music from use in the early church. The sources were completely different and that separation allowed the evolution path that was taken, (which was never from “popular” forms.)
Deacon Ed:
Aquinas is not one of the Church Fathers
Yes I’m well aware of that. I brought it up because his writings are reflective of the later music evolution and a different set of circumstances and cultural influence are present. It also reinforces my original argument concerning the Early Church where liturgical music started, demonstrates the evolution, and points out the differences when one understands the significance of the other factors exerting influence in their respective time periods and stages of musical evolution. By the time of Aquinas greek musical theory, (note- not form) is an influence a nd as such Aquinas enters that discussion as he needed to do. But it is in striking contrast to Augustine and each writer’s comments must be taken in their appropriate historical/cultural context.
Deacon Ed:
The story of Silent Night that I have given is the one that seems most credible. You are correct that there is no actual proof of what happened. However, based on what we know it is consistent with facts that are in evidence.
The other "unknowns concern the purpose for writing the hymn. Legend has it that this may have been written for Fr. Mohr personally since he loved the guitar and Gruber wrote it for his abilities. There is speculation that the organ stopped working and the guitar was used. There is also an unknown that suggests a variance of the vocal orchestration used.
What we do know is that it happened and the rest, as they say, is history!
Deacon Ed:
I’ve enjoyed this dialog. Because my time is limited I shall read whatever you wish to post in reponse to this, but will not post further.
Deacon Ed
Too bad, It’s been a good examination.
Joe B
