To quote you: "Sadly there a many that have the name Lutheran that don’t follow the confessions, scripture, the historic church or even the creeds.
Ben answered your question, EC. Many more examples could be found on any side of a given synodical line, because we are a church of sinners.
Let’s not disrupt the forums with an exhaustive list of people who are bad at following the beliefs they claim to hold. We’d need a whole other forum to accommodate Cafeteria Catholics, Lunch-Counter Lutherans and the like.True but I was puzzled by the “many” in Ben’s comment. One thing I am very proud of is that Lutherans are united in our faith as articulated in the Confessions. Some view Lutherans as the true via media between Catholics and Protestants since we affirm the Catholic faith as well as principles like sola scriptura.Ben answered your question, EC. Many more examples could be found on any side of a given synodical line, because we are a church of sinners.
If you mean that those who call themselves “Lutheran” are united in their claim to follow the Confessions, I agree. I think that the fruits of a great many individuals and, in several cases, entire synods shows that a claim to follow Sola Scriptura as the Lutheran Confessions state does not make correct practice manifest.
We are brothers in Christ as Lutherans since there is no variation in doctrine/ dogma. Lutheran is a precise expression of the Catholic faith.
I recognize that Lutherans accept tradition, but they only accept the traditions that they have ‘decided’ are valid. So, in essence, they used their Private or Group Interpretation to decide which of the various traditions they would accept and which ones they would reject. As such, those who made those decisions completely rejected the traditions of their fathers.
That would assume that McGrath is the least informed Reformation Scholar in the world. Actually he is probably one of the best informed in the world. Given that his excellent book “Christianity’s Dangerous Idea” speaks directly to the massive number of Protestant factions, I don’t think your explanation makes any sense. Do you have another one?
That is absolutely correct, and he also taught a lot of stupid stuff, claiming that it was all very Scriptural of course, including Sola Scriptura and Private Interpretation. Given that fact, why should anyone believe that his ‘reformation’ was ‘right’ in the eyes of God? He claimed that his reformation was ‘very Scriptural’ and yet we all agree that he taught a lot of ‘stupid stuff’, to use your term. Who decides which was ‘stupid stuff’?
I’m glad we agree that the Catholic Church and the Lutheran church cannot both be teaching God’s Absolute Truth because they teach different ‘versions’ of Salvation. Only one of them can be Authoritative, not both. With respect to the Authority from God to teach, only one is the True Church. Which one might that be Ben? I ask this direct question because I have hope of a direct question.
It seems that the word ‘many’ has created quite a buzz. I will offer my two cents here:
Of course there are other ‘confessions’ and other Protestant denominations in which the church has teaching and doctrinal authority, but I don’t think that that is really the issue. It seems to me that we are always being ‘steered around’ the early reformation period and to the ‘Confessional stage’ of Lutheranism. This ignores the actual history of early Lutheranism and it’s roots in Luther’s teaching on Private Interpretation.
Even if that’s that Catholic viewpoint, I would still say it is a stretch to say “totally”.
There’s only a few slight variations on the Lutheran church - but sadly there are churches that claim to be Lutheran that are not. The children of the reformation are beggars- as wiser men than me have said.
I can’t really agree with that - we proclaim the Gospel well.
The assembled church wrote the Confessions. I’m not much of a historian about their creation, so I’ll have to leave that to others.
I would based on the quotes, he’s not versed in Lutheran theology or history as we see ourselves.
That he makes the mistake of lumping Lutherans with other that are not Lutheran.
The church.
I probably should read more carefully - your Church is authoritative for those in your communion and rightly preaches the Gospel and administers the Sacraments.
We claim to be a valid continuation of the western church - and we don’t have to diminish your church to do so.
Were it so easy! There are great confessional ELCA churches, and rather miserable LCMS churches. Some WELS churches suffer and some are excellent.
That’s a fair assessment - as the early reformation had too much politics, willful personalities, and warring factions to be beneficial in proclaiming the Gospel.
Luther only had his own council to begin with, so his observations wen’t from being a personal inquiry to a church-wide one is to be expected.
May the Lord’s blessings remain with you Topper.
Fair enough. How about if we say that you “reserve the right to reject any tradition or component thereof that you feel to be incompatible with your beliefs.” If you don’t believe that this is a fair way to put it then please restate it as you wish.
That is exactly my point. There are many different competing and conflicting versions of Lutheranism and in fact, some so far apart from others that they don’t even consider each other to be ‘Lutheran’. To me, this is an indictment against SS and must be especially stinging to someone who considers Lutheranism to be the ‘purest’ form of Christianity.
Ben, let’s be honest. If you believe that Lutheranism ‘proclaims the Gospel well’, then you also claim that the Catholic Church does not. Of course ALL Protestant denominations believe that they ‘proclaim’ well. Who judges which do and which do not?
OK then, by what authority did those writers of your Confessions assemble and rebuke the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils, which represented the ENTIRE Church throughout the world? I am speaking of the pre EO days and Councils for now.
I don’t think you would say this if you were aware of McGrath’s credentials and reputation. Furthermore, I’m sure you understand that those ‘other’ denominations ‘see themselves’ also as being as ‘doctrinally pure’ as you do. Self-perceptions can be faulty (and usually are BTW).
Which church are you talking? (The church universal or any such version cannot be the correct answer).
How can this be? Does the Holy Spirit lead the Catholic Church to teach something on a particular doctrine and then turn around and lead Lutheranism to teach something very different?
For the record, the Roman Catholic Church has a FAR stronger case for being ‘a valid continuation of the western church’ and the Roman Catholic Church which DOES have Apostolic Succession claims that Lutheranism does not. Sorry.
Who decides which churches are ‘confessional’ and which are ‘miserable’? Certainly nobody thinks that their Lutheran church is ‘miserable’. Unfortunately, Lutheranism will continue to fracture, and most certainly at an ever increasing rate – BECAUSE it has no central authority. You can claim that that role is filled by your Confessions but clearly that ain’t workin out all that well. Sorry again.
I agree and I think you would agree that, overall, Lutheranism is not headed in the ‘right direction’. Please correct me if I am wrong.
OK. How can a denomination be founded on the Private Interpretations of a single man, a man who taught SO MUCH which we all agree to be anti-Scriptural, and contend that it was somehow able to pick and choose through all of his (Luther’s) teachings AND also the things taught by the historic Church, and arrive at the best ‘version’ of Christianity? How can we become convinced that the writers of the Lutheran Confessions, who did not represent a large geography, were ‘better led’ than those who gathered from the entire world. BTW, whatever substantive answer you offer should not be able to be high jacked by your ‘Protestant competition’. In other words, in order to be compelling, it must apply to ONLY the writers of the Lutheran Confessions. Good Luck.
No way would we say that! There’s certainly better Lutheran explanations, but my merge one would be to say we are bound to Christ, and not merely our personal beliefs in Christ.
We’re responsile for our own situation, and not for other Christians.
That’s really way too far - I would certainly not try to pry Catholics away from their faith. God’s grace is sufficient for not only me, but for others in faith.
Not sure I follow as we accept the earlier church councils. Perhaps there may be some aspects of later councils we don’t follow - I’ll have to leave that to others to answer.
I’ll leave McGrath to speak about his own communion, he does not represent mine.
The OHCAC. While you may not like the answer given, it’s what we profess.
Sin on all sides runs through the times of the reformation. The Holy Spirit leads us back to the foot of the cross.
That’s perhaps why you’re Catholic.
That would be your conclusion and not ours - our prayers for reconciliation do not include the diminishment of your church.
Our central authority if Christ and Him Crucified. Any fracture in the Body of Christ comes for our own sin.
Certainly the church suffers - we should expect that the devil assails. But Confessional Lutheranism is doing quite well. There’s more Confessional Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.
God preserve you in faith.
What, then, is Catholicism? Sorry, but I find that comment to be nonsensical. If Lutheranism was a precise expression of the Catholic faith then you wouldn’t be calling yourself “Lutheran”.
Ok. Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoyed it very much and look forward to conversing with you again on another thread sometime.
My understanding is that we are separated brothers in Christ since the Catholic Church foe example has seven sacraments while the Lutheran church has only two as I understand it. Also either one is in union with the Catholic Church or it is not. There is no two ways about it, one simply can’t be separated from the Catholic Church and still claim there is no variation in doctrines and dogma. I disagree that Lutheran is precise expression of the Catholic faith, because it that were the case then Lutheran’s would be in union with the Catholic Church not separated from it.
Or Lutherans and Catholics would see no need for continued division.
