Follow up questions

[Bonocorium]

Ok, 2 days ago, I posted a question and lots of people answered saying that:
#1]. the Church does not say that anyone (including Judas) is in Hell right now.
#2]. the Church does not say that a majority will go to Hell.

I am quite surprised by these answers and I still dont agree with them (or maybe I just misunderstood them).

For #1]:
-During the Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus period, the church’s teaching of the doctrine implied that Jew, Greek, Schismatic, Heretic all cant share in salvation, so the Church indirectly implied that those who died during the period went to Hell.

-What did the term “let him be anathema” mean in all those Council of Trent documents. Is there any similarity between the “let him be anathema” and the “let him be accursed” regarding the angel that preaches another gospel? Do both of them mean “cursed, but not going to Hell?”.

-I saw a Jan Hus documentary and in it, during the excommunicating they were saying: “Let God condemn u to Hell” or something similar.

-Also, what about Luther? I heard the MHFM people call him the biggest heretic ever and needless to say, he was excommunicated.

-In one of the churches in Vatican City, there is a statue of the Virgin Mother casting Luther and Calvin (or was it Hus) out of Heaven, so it implies that they could have gone to no other place than Hell.

-Some top apologists, including the MHFM people and Robert Sungenius say that Luther and reformers are in Hell.

-If a person died in front of the Pope 2 seconds after committing a blatant set of mortal sins, would the Pope say that person is in Hell?

For #2]:
-The Bible says in several places, such as regarding the narrow gate and the narrow way, how most people will end up in Hell. If Jesus said those words 2000 years ago, it must imply that in the 2000 years since, most would have gone to Hell. Why would the Church say something so contrary to this, especially in that for the first 1960 years of the Church’s existence, it held fast to Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus? [Including Ex-Cathedra from some popes].

-The Traditionalist groups almost universally hold that a majority will go to Hell. One of the websites even cited an apparition of a recently passed away bishop that said in that same hour 30,000 died and only 2 got to Heaven and 3 got to Purgatory, despite Europe being almost 100% religious at the time. If almost all Traditionalist groups hold that majority will be lost, it must imply that in previous generations, the Church taught such.

-I read somewhere that one of the missionaries (St Francis Xavier or someone) decided against his plans and decided to go to China instead, because he believed that “unbaptized people [infants included] all went to Hell”.

-I read somewhere that one of the Fatima visionaries said to another Fatima visionary that WWI will begin soon and “almost all will go to Hell”.

-I might have read somewhere that the apparition at Fatima predicted most will go to Hell. If it did such, the Church would not have classified the apparition as “worthy of belief”.

-I thought I read another thread the other day about whether most people are in Hell and I am pretty sure many said that most are in Hell.

Other questions:
-Do the Orthodox churches have a similar stance that they dont know who are in Hell and dont know if the majority are in Hell?
-Can we call the Fundamentalist Fire and Brimstone people “uncharitable” and what is the name of the type sin which involves one being uncharitable like the Fundamentalists?
-People perceive Christianity as being intolerant. Is this because Fundamentalists rather than Catholics are interacting with them?

I would like to see some comments on this. I do concede I may have misunderstood some of the comments of that other thread.

Thanks!!

 

[Verbum]

Hi Bono,

You seem to under the impression that there was a time when the Church condemned all men who were not in the Church, followed by a time when that condemnation ceased.

The Church has not changed the doctrine. It has stated it within the contest of all humanity. The condemnations of the past were against those who had left the Catholic Church to found or join heretical groups. Although only God knows the hearts of men and no one but Him can condemn someone to hell, these people could be presumed to be in danger of their salvation from the fact that they had, with open eyes, rejected the True Church.

Verbum

 

[1_with_God]

RE: Your reference to Fatima:

On August 19th, 1917 Our Lady said:

“Pray, Pray very much and make sacrifices; for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices and to pray for them.”

**Our Lady ended the series of her apparitions in Fatima with these words:

“Do not offend the Lord our God anymore, because He is already so much offended.”

Will many souls go to hell, yes. Can we know without a doubt who will go to heaven or hell, no.

 

[guanophore]

Ok, 2 days ago, I posted a question and lots of people answered saying that:

#1]. the Church does not say that anyone (including Judas) is in Hell right now.
#2]. the Church does not say that a majority will go to Hell.

I am quite surprised by these answers and I still dont agree with them (or maybe I just misunderstood them).

For #1]:
-During the Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus period, the church’s teaching of the doctrine implied that Jew, Greek, Schismatic, Heretic all cant share in salvation, so the Church indirectly implied that those who died during the period went to Hell.

This is not a “period” but a doctrine of the faith. It is not like this teaching has “expired”. Like all the other doctrines of the faith, it cannot change.

Our understandings can change. The Apostles taught that there is only one name under heaven by which we may be saved, and that all who are saved are saved through the Church. Catholics may not have understood previously that people can be joined to Christ and His churc mystially in a way that we do not understand, and cannot observe (they are not visibly Catholic).

-What did the term “let him be anathema” mean in all those Council of Trent documents. Is there any similarity between the “let him be anathema” and the “let him be accursed” regarding the angel that preaches another gospel? Do both of them mean “cursed, but not going to Hell?”.

Anathema is the word “accursed” in Greek. It means excommunicated. The Apostles taught that, since there is no salvation outside the Church, those who were excommunicates would be accursed unless they repented and returned to grace. It is used as a matter of discipline, to make the errant understand how grave their situation is so that they will snap and return to the One Faith.

-I saw a Jan Hus documentary and in it, during the excommunicating they were saying: "Let God condemn u to Hell" or something similar.

The Church has always taught that it is not our place to condemn people to hell. The Church can pronounce who is embracing heresies that will result in separating people from the One Faith. Jon Hus was one such person. It is implied that embracing heresies separates one from the One Faith delivered once for all to the Church.

-Also, what about Luther? I heard the MHFM people call him the biggest heretic ever and needless to say, he was excommunicated.

Yes, but we know that he had many regrets on his deathbed, and it is possible that he repented of his sins before he died. We do not know this unless God reveals it to the Church.

-In one of the churches in Vatican City, there is a statue of the Virgin Mother casting Luther and Calvin (or was it Hus) out of Heaven, so it implies that they could have gone to no other place than Hell.

Catholic doctrine is not formed by statues, but by the doctrines of the Apostles. In general, though, heretics such as these who led the flock astray would be considered to have fallen under the “It is better they have a millstone around their neck and thrown into the sea” concept, or like the case of Judas “it would have been better for him never to have been born”. We cannot know their fate, however, it is up to God only to judge.

-Some top apologists, including the MHFM people and Robert Sungenius say that Luther and reformers are in Hell.

Yes, such statements are a departure from the Teaching of the Church.

-If a person died in front of the Pope 2 seconds after committing a blatant set of mortal sins, would the Pope say that person is in Hell?

A corrupt Pope might. Some corrupt popes have said and done things against the Teaching of the Church. But our present blessed Holy Father would not, He would leave that up to God, as the Church teaches. For an example of this, read about what Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira right before they dropped dead at his feet after committing a blatant mortal sin.

For #2]:
-The Bible says in several places, such as regarding the narrow gate and the narrow way, how most people will end up in Hell. If Jesus said those words 2000 years ago, it must imply that in the 2000 years since, most would have gone to Hell. Why would the Church say something so contrary to this, especially in that for the first 1960 years of the Church’s existence, it held fast to Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus? [Including Ex-Cathedra from some popes].

The Church continues to hold fast to EENS.

It is not our place to determine which souls have kept to the narrow way.

 

[guanophore]

-The Traditionalist groups almost universally hold that a majority will go to Hell. One of the websites even cited an apparition of a recently passed away bishop that said in that same hour 30,000 died and only 2 got to Heaven and 3 got to Purgatory, despite Europe being almost 100% religious at the time. If almost all Traditionalist groups hold that majority will be lost, it must imply that in previous generations, the Church taught such.

You are right that the Church has always understood that few will find the way. However, the Church is not bound my any private revelations. Apparitions of Mary have also stated that souls fall into hell like snowflakes. We cannot know which souls they are, though.

-I read somewhere that one of the missionaries (St Francis Xavier or someone) decided against his plans and decided to go to China instead, because he believed that “unbaptized people [infants included] all went to Hell”.

-I read somewhere that one of the Fatima visionaries said to another Fatima visionary that WWI will begin soon and “almost all will go to Hell”.

Jesus taught that baptism is required for salvation, that is why we baptise babies. God, however is able to save whoever He wants, however He likes. We entrust the souls of unbaptized infants to a merciful creator, understanding that He desires all to be saved.

Yes, one of the Fatima disclosures is that many fall into Hell.

-I might have read somewhere that the apparition at Fatima predicted most will go to Hell. If it did such, the Church would not have classified the apparition as "worthy of belief".

Yes. No prophesies or visions are approved that contradict the Teaching of the Church.

-I thought I read another thread the other day about whether most people are in Hell and I am pretty sure many said that most are in Hell.

I would suggest focusing on keeping yourself in a state of grace first, then reach out to others to assist them to do this as well.

Other questions:
-Do the Orthodox churches have a similar stance that they dont know who are in Hell and dont know if the majority are in Hell?

Yes.

-Can we call the Fundamentalist Fire and Brimstone people “uncharitable” and what is the name of the type sin which involves one being uncharitable like the Fundamentalists?

There is nothing inherently uncharitable about telling the Truth. Plenty of saints have preached fire and brimstone. Being uncharitable is a sin, though.

-People perceive Christianity as being intolerant. Is this because Fundamentalists rather than Catholics are interacting with them?

Not necessarily. There are plenty of intolerant Catholics as well.

I would like to see some comments on this. I do concede I may have misunderstood some of the comments of that other thread.

Thanks!!

Or, perhaps not?

 

[TheDoctor]

-Some top apologists, including the MHFM people…

Sorry, I stopped reading there. You need to stop and take a step back. If you really think the MHFM, a fringe group of anti-Catholic, anti-pope sedevacantists are “top apologists” you really don’t have a clue about any of the other things you are asking about. And when you say “I thought I read”, “I might have read”, “I read somewhere” it leaves the impression that you are not looking for the truth but are being led astray.

I am sorry if it sounds harsh, but it is not just about getting horrible information - it is about putting your soul in jeopardy if you get your theology from them.

May I lovingly suggest you take a break and search Catholic Answers and the Catechism on Heaven and Hell. Get a good background of what the Church really teaches and then come back and ask 1 or two questions, O.K.?

 

[steve_b]

Ok, 2 days ago, I posted a question and lots of people answered saying that:
#1]. the Church does not say that anyone (including Judas) is in Hell right now.
#2]. the Church does not say that a majority will go to Hell.

I am quite surprised by these answers and I still dont agree with them (or maybe I just misunderstood them).

For #1]:
-During the Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus period, the church’s teaching of the doctrine implied that Jew, Greek, Schismatic, Heretic all cant share in salvation, so the Church indirectly implied that those who died during the period went to Hell.

One could say that Paul taught that 1st. Those who weren’t in the Church or those who divided from the Church and remained that way would not inherit the the kingdom of God [Gal 5:19-21]

Since Paul taught under the inspitration of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit causes the apostles to remember all that Jesus taught [Jn 14:26], that means regarding consequences to one’s soul for seperation from the Church, this is what Jesus taught.

That’s a warning. It’s not a judgement. One can always change their ways before they die.
B:

-What did the term “let him be anathema” mean in all those Council of Trent documents. Is there any similarity between the “let him be anathema” and the “let him be accursed” regarding the angel that preaches another gospel? Do both of them mean “cursed, but not going to Hell?”.

anathema = excommunication
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Anathema

One doesn’t have to remain excommunicated.
B:

-I saw a Jan Hus documentary and in it, during the excommunicating they were saying: “Let God condemn u to Hell” or something similar.

-Also, what about Luther? I heard the MHFM people call him the biggest heretic ever and needless to say, he was excommunicated.

-In one of the churches in Vatican City, there is a statue of the Virgin Mother casting Luther and Calvin (or was it Hus) out of Heaven, so it implies that they could have gone to no other place than Hell.

-Some top apologists, including the MHFM people and Robert Sungenius say that Luther and reformers are in Hell.

-If a person died in front of the Pope 2 seconds after committing a blatant set of mortal sins, would the Pope say that person is in Hell?

The Church doesn’t say who is in hell. The Church doesn’t speculate on what goes on in a persons mind at the moment of death, nor what happens between them and Jesus at the moment of death.

Merely that, if a person dies in mortal sin, i.e. there is no repentance at death for grave sin they’ve committed, then scripture tells us that person will not inherit the kingdom of God. i.e. they go to hell.
B:

For #2]:
-The Bible says in several places, such as regarding the narrow gate and the narrow way, how most people will end up in Hell. If Jesus said those words 2000 years ago, it must imply that in the 2000 years since, most would have gone to Hell. Why would the Church say something so contrary to this, especially in that for the first 1960 years of the Church’s existence, it held fast to Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus? [Including Ex-Cathedra from some popes].

The Church isn’t the one condemning anyone to hell. That’s up to God.
B:

-The Traditionalist groups almost universally hold that a majority will go to Hell. One of the websites even cited an apparition of a recently passed away bishop that said in that same hour 30,000 died and only 2 got to Heaven and 3 got to Purgatory, despite Europe being almost 100% religious at the time. If almost all Traditionalist groups hold that majority will be lost, it must imply that in previous generations, the Church taught such.

-I read somewhere that one of the missionaries (St Francis Xavier or someone) decided against his plans and decided to go to China instead, because he believed that “unbaptized people [infants included] all went to Hell”.

-I read somewhere that one of the Fatima visionaries said to another Fatima visionary that WWI will begin soon and “almost all will go to Hell”.

-I might have read somewhere that the apparition at Fatima predicted most will go to Hell. If it did such, the Church would not have classified the apparition as “worthy of belief”.

-I thought I read another thread the other day about whether most people are in Hell and I am pretty sure many said that most are in Hell.

the Church doesn’t ***require ***anyone to believe in them as a matter of faith. There is nothing contrary to the faith so it is worthy of belief, but not required… Think of Jesus own words to Thomas. “You believe because you see, blessed are those who believe yet haven’t seen”

Heb 11:1
faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
B:

Other questions:
-Do the Orthodox churches have a similar stance that they dont know who are in Hell and dont know if the majority are in Hell?
-Can we call the Fundamentalist Fire and Brimstone people “uncharitable” and what is the name of the type sin which involves one being uncharitable like the Fundamentalists?
-People perceive Christianity as being intolerant. Is this because Fundamentalists rather than Catholics are interacting with them?

I would like to see some comments on this. I do concede I may have misunderstood some of the comments of that other thread.

Thanks!!

As a suggestion, stay away from fringe groups and their web sites