Following atheist trend, Britons seek 'de-baptism'

[Eggnotz]

“More than 100,000 Britons have recently downloaded “certificates of de-baptism” from the Internet to renounce their Christian faith. The initiative launched by a group called the National Secular Society (NSS) follows atheist campaigns here and elsewhere, including a London bus poster which triggered protests by proclaiming “There’s probably no God.” “We now produce a certificate on parchment and we have sold 1,500 units at three pounds (4.35 dollars, 3.20 euros) a pop,” said NSS president Terry Sanderson, 58.”

Also:

"De-baptism organisers say the initiative is a response to what they see as increasing stridency from churches – the latest last week when Pope Benedict XVI stirred global controversy on a trip to AIDS-ravaged Africa by saying condom use could further spread of the disease.

“The Catholic Church is so politically active at the moment that I think that is where the hostility is coming from,” said Sanderson. “In Catholic countries there is a very strong feeling of wanting to punish the church by leaving it.”

breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ae71a038e9b3b47af4f0e9eac9598fd8.2b1&show_article=1

 

[chrisse]

If there is no God, then does de-baptising mean anything?

What a waste of time.

 

[Spirithound]

“De-baptism organisers say the initiative is a response to what they see as increasing stridency from churches…”

breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.ae71a038e9b3b47af4f0e9eac9598fd8.2b1&show_article=1

This was an interesting part, so to speak…The Church is right where she’s always been. Secular society has gotten more intolerant to any contradiction.

 

[idrum677]

How’s that working out for them???

 

[idrum677]

In Catholic countries there is a very strong feeling of wanting to punish the church by leaving it.

How’s that working out for them???

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

How’s that working out for them???

Hahahaaha!



What a bunch of dopes.

 

[PoliSciProf]

Well, this really makes their apostacy official.

 

[Exalt]

If there is no God, then does de-baptising mean anything?

What a waste of time.

Both Catholics and non-theists agree that baptism, among other things, is a ritual in which you are declared to be a Christian in the eyes of your family and society. We agree that it is a social event, as well as a religious one. Furthermore, on a side note, Baptism usually is done without the consent of the person being baptized, as the person is usually a child at the time. But, when one grows up and finds that the the tenants of Christianity are unreasonable and irrational, it makes perfect sense from a social (and psychological) perspective to engage in an event and (in this case) order a certificate that says you are no *longer *a Christian. For some of these people, it is just as important as a convert to Catholicism receiving a Baptismal certificate. They are simply living out their beliefs and declaring them to the world.

 

[dzheremi]

Uh…baptism brands the soul, Britons. You can’t rid yourself of that brand with one or a million internet certificates.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Uh…baptism brands the soul, Britons. You can’t rid yourself of that brand with one or a million internet certificates.

Something tells me they don’t care about the permanent mark on their soul.

I also agree with Chrissie ~ what is the point of an atheist de-baptizing? Sounds like a great money-making ploy on the part of the promoters tho’! At 3.20 euros each, these folks have made several thousand dollars already and stand to make more if more people sign up for the useless piece of paper they’re offering. (Hint to anyone thinking of doing this ~ you can renounce God without paying 3.20 euros!)

Me? I just wish that the atheists promoting this silliness would put their inventiveness to more productive use, instead of something that reeks of self-interest and vanity.

 

[Exalt]

Uh…baptism brands the soul, Britons. You can’t rid yourself of that brand with one or a million internet certificates.

What exactly does baptism brand the soul with?

 

[dzheremi]

From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

 

[Exalt]

From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

So, according to the Catecheism, baptism means someone is “configured” to Christ. Sort of like how my USB camera automatically configures itself to my computer. Another way you could describe baptism, says the Catechism, is like a seal or mark you’d place on a document - except this mark never goes away. No sin can erase the mark, according to Catholicism.

Well, what exactly does this magical permanent-marker-on-my-soul do? (These are all real questions, by the way.) Do I get to go to Heaven even though I’m an atheist? Could I convert to another religion, just to cover another base in case that religion turns out to be true, and be OK if it turns out that Christianity is true? I’m really confused here. If you can just turn around and say you don’t want to be Christian anymore and get sent to Hell for it, then isn’t this magical permanent Baptism effectively not-permanent?

You see my confusion here. It all seems so … implausible. Horcruxes in Harry Potter make more sense.

 

[chrisse]

So, according to the Catecheism, baptism means someone is “configured” to Christ. Sort of like how my USB camera automatically configures itself to my computer. Another way you could describe baptism, says the Catechism, is like a seal or mark you’d place on a document - except this mark never goes away. No sin can erase the mark, according to Catholicism.

Well, what exactly does this magical permanent-marker-on-my-soul do? (These are all real questions, by the way.) Do I get to go to Heaven even though I’m an atheist? Could I convert to another religion, just to cover another base in case that religion turns out to be true, and be OK if it turns out that Christianity is true? I’m really confused here. If you can just turn around and say you don’t want to be Christian anymore and get sent to Hell for it, then isn’t this magical permanent Baptism effectively not-permanent?

You see my confusion here. It all seems so … implausible. Horcruxes in Harry Potter make more sense.

Why are you worried about your soul - as far as you’re concerned, you don’t have one.

 

[dzheremi]

So, according to the Catecheism, baptism means someone is “configured” to Christ. Sort of like how my USB camera automatically configures itself to my computer. Another way you could describe baptism, says the Catechism, is like a seal or mark you’d place on a document - except this mark never goes away. No sin can erase the mark, according to Catholicism.

You could look it at that way, if you want to.

Well, what exactly does this magical permanent-marker-on-my-soul do? (These are all real questions, by the way.)

I don’t understand the question. What does any branding/marking “do”?

Do I get to go to Heaven even though I’m an atheist? Could I convert to another religion, just to cover another base in case that religion turns out to be true, and be OK if it turns out that Christianity is true?

None of these questions are for me or anyone else to answer. If you do go to heaven, it will be no less due to God’s grace than if I were to get there. The Church does not teach anything like “once saved, always saved”, and none of us are really ‘worthy’ of heaven just because we’re Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, etc. So my best guess would be that no, you don’t get to go to heaven by being an atheist, but that is not to say that you could never get there because you currently disbelieve. I never thought I’d be a Catholic…

I’m really confused here. If you can just turn around and say you don’t want to be Christian anymore and get sent to Hell for it, then isn’t this magical permanent Baptism effectively not-permanent?

Nope, it still is. Think of it this way: If you were to get married, then divorce, you would no longer be married, but you could never again say that you have never been married. Similarly, you cannot “undo” the effect that baptism has on your soul, even if you voluntarily stop practicing Christianity.

You see my confusion here. It all seems so … implausible. Horcruxes in Harry Potter make more sense.

Um. Okay. Am I supposed to know what that is? I know of Harry Potter, but that’s it…

Anyway, you are free to believe or disbelieve in anything you want to. The truth of baptism is as it is whether you personally believe in it or not.

 

[Exalt]

Why are you worried about your soul - as far as you’re concerned, you don’t have one.

I ask questions to learn more about people.

I don’t understand the question. What does any branding/marking “do”?

I suppose a branding/marking designates something as belonging to something else. Which, I suppose you mean that Baptism says that someone belongs to Christ. But what does that actually mean? What *change *does it actually have in my life?

None of these questions are for me or anyone else to answer. If you do go to heaven, it will be no less due to God’s grace than if I were to get there. The Church does not teach anything like “once saved, always saved”, and none of us are really ‘worthy’ of heaven just because we’re Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, etc. So my best guess would be that no, you don’t get to go to heaven by being an atheist, but that is not to say that you could never get there because you currently disbelieve. I never thought I’d be a Catholic…

Okay, so Baptism doesn’t have anything to do with going to heaven…

Nope, it still is. Think of it this way: If you were to get married, then divorce, you would no longer be married, but you could never again say that you have never been married. Similarly, you cannot “undo” the effect that baptism has on your soul, even if you voluntarily stop practicing Christianity.

Okay, so to clarify: What I’m asking is what effect is there other than I have a nifty new invisible tattoo on my invisible soul?

 

[dzheremi]

I suppose a branding/marking designates something as belonging to something else. Which, I suppose you mean that Baptism says that someone belongs to Christ. But what does that actually mean? What *change *does it actually have in my life?

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. That is a big change, isn’t it?

Okay, so Baptism doesn’t have anything to do with going to heaven…

What? When did I say that? Wow. I must be more careful with my words. Forgive me, please. Baptism ABSOLUTELY has to do with going to heaven. See above…the whole “forgiveness of sins” thing. It is necessary for salvation to be baptized. It may not always involve a physical baptism (as in ‘baptism of desire’), but it must occur.

Okay, so to clarify: What I’m asking is what effect is there other than I have a nifty new invisible tattoo on my invisible soul?

Again, baptism makes the unclean clean. As we say in the Creed, we acknowlege one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. If you do not understand what a big effect that is, I don’t know what to tell you. No, it doesn’t guarantee that you can’t ever sin again, that you’ll never have to go to confession, or that you’ll get a “Get Into Heaven Free” pass, but it is still the central event in life.

 

[Spirithound]

Well, what exactly does this magical permanent-marker-on-my-soul do?

Do I get to go to Heaven even though I’m an atheist?

Could I convert to another religion, just to cover another base in case that religion turns out to be true, and be OK if it turns out that Christianity is true?

If you can just turn around and say you don’t want to be Christian anymore and get sent to Hell for it, then isn’t this magical permanent Baptism effectively not-permanent?

Baptism (and the resulting indelible mark on the soul, the configuration to Christ) allows a person to receive sanctifying grace.

If you die an atheist, we will pray for you and “entrust you to the mercy of God”, which basically means we have no idea where you are now.

Well, that might depend on first, whether your “second” religion turns out to be true, and how they feel about it. As to how Christianity feels about it, not allowed. If you join another religion, we will pray for you and entrust you to the mercy of God.

No, you’re thinking on a Protestant belief known as “Once Saved, Always Saved”. As I said above, the configuration to Christ enables a person to receive sanctifying grace, but they are certainly not obligated to receive it.

 

[MelanieAnne]

So, according to the Catecheism, baptism means someone is “configured” to Christ. Sort of like how my USB camera automatically configures itself to my computer. Another way you could describe baptism, says the Catechism, is like a seal or mark you’d place on a document - except this mark never goes away. No sin can erase the mark, according to Catholicism.

Actually Exalt, your analogy of your camera and your computer is flawed. Your camera doesn’t configure itself to your computer, does it? Isn’t there software on your computer that allows the computer to read the files on the memory card in your camera through the USB port? Viewed that way, yeah, you’re the camera, God is the computer. Except that somehow, back through that Baptism USB port, a permanent mark is put on the memory card in the camera.

By the way, do you believe in all this stuff? The camera? the computer? That’s faith.

 

[Exalt]

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. That is a big change, isn’t it?

But children are baptized very young, before they can do anything wrong. They have committed no sin. So, what sin does Baptism forgive?

What? When did I say that? Wow. I must be more careful with my words. Forgive me, please. Baptism ABSOLUTELY has to do with going to heaven. See above…the whole “forgiveness of sins” thing. It is necessary for salvation to be baptized. It may not always involve a physical baptism (as in ‘baptism of desire’), but it must occur.

So, Baptism has to happen for someone to go to heaven. But what if very good but unbaptized person dies who doesn’t want particularly *want *to be baptized? Does God send them to hell?

I suppose you’ll say, as the next poster does, that they must be “entrusted to God’s will.” That, of course, means that they hope God will do something miraculous to circumvent his own rules. God said everyone needed to be baptized, but some good people don’t get baptized and die, and they hope they go to heaven, so they theorize that God would break his own rule to help them. Interesting. You’d think that God would sort of write these “exceptions” into the rule book itself, as the picture of God without these “exceptions” is pretty abysmal.

Again, baptism makes the unclean clean. As we say in the Creed, we acknowlege one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. If you do not understand what a big effect that is, I don’t know what to tell you. No, it doesn’t guarantee that you can’t ever sin again, that you’ll never have to go to confession, or that you’ll get a “Get Into Heaven Free” pass, but it is still the central event in life.

We both agree that baptism appears to have very little to do with stopping *future *sin, that much is clear. Christians seem to struggle with wrongdoing just as much as everyone else. And, as you say, it doesn’t mean that you’ll necessarily get into Heaven, especially seeing as how pretty much everyone ‘sins’ after being baptized. So baptism doesn’t stop future sin and it doesn’t write your ticket to heaven. As you said, what it *does *do is make someone “clean” who once was “dirty”. I assume you’re talking about sin here once again. Well, a little baby can’t possibly be “dirty” with sin, right? I mean, the little guy or girl is brand new to the world. They can’t possibly have committed any wrongdoing against anyone.