Following the Correct Religion

[scree]

But at what price?

I met a French-Canadian girl at school earlier this year who, partly because all the “Catholics” around her were such uninspiring spiritual role models, she had no reason not to convert to Islam after meeting and falling in love with a man of that faith.

The girl might revert to Catholicism on her deathbed–let us pray for God to work such a miracle!–but it was still very distressing to learn of her choice to follow the heresy of Muhammad.

Aelred Minor:

In the end, I think God will answer for why He permitted evil, including every individual evil. Meanwhile it really is a mystery which can only be explained in partial or general terms which are not themselves comprehensively satisfying.

I’ve got to agree with Trebor here. My question isn’t really about permitting evil. What I’m wondering is, why is it not clearer which is the correct religion? Catholicism makes it pretty clear that it’s important to be Catholic. So important that how you spend the rest of eternity depends on it. But why isn’t it clearer that Catholicism is the right choice?

Why aren’t we left with a choice of whether or not to follow God, instead of having to sort through many different interpretations/beliefs on what following God actually means?

The idea of an epic battle at the end does sound pretty cool. But like Trebor said, at what cost? Is it worth losing souls for all eternity for a grand show?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Interesting response, and interesting way of looking at it. So does that mean that God purposely doesn’t give enough grace to some people to become Catholic?

It was just a safe, standard sort of statement.

God gives every human being the grace necessary for salvation. Baptism is necessary for salvation. Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, you have no life in you. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (it is absolutely necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff). God sends no one to eternal torment who has not freely and deliberately chosen it. We can hope for the salvation of non-Catholics, even non-Christians, who die in invincible ignorance of the fullness of the Christian religion. All these are truths that have to be held together and interpreted in light of each other.

 

[Della]

God has made it very simple to know and follow the true religion, but men will not have it. No amount of explaining or living a holy life before others or even praying can overcome man’s obstinate desire to have everything his own way. It’s why man fell in the first place. Why do we think we should be the exception–that God should make special rules just for our generation? We are either willing to know and love God and our fellow men or we aren’t. Those who aren’t will be judged, and fairly too, as enemies of God. Those who do will be his friends and know eternal happiness. It’s just that simple.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I agree with you. My question isn’t as much about which religion is correct, but more about why isn’t it easier to know which religion is correct?

Hello Scree
How do you define/judge “correct”? It sounds dangerous to uncritically accept a definition on this from the same religion/church we look at joining . This seems to mean we must somehow learn/decide this without external help. A real contradiction. I think this is the deeper source of the difficulty .

Do we really know what is best for us when we are green? How do we grow “brown” in this matter?

Personally I find that it all boils down to “who is my Teacher?” Jesus said “Call no man on earth your Teacher.” That makes the issue even more intriguing.

 

[SPH1]

God is not the author of confusion (1Cor14:33) so did not “found” the confusion of Protestantism or the other religions of the world.

“You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church”. Matt 16:18.

Look for that Church built upon the rock of Peter, for that is the Church Christ built and is building.

Now, what Church would that be…?

Which is the only Church that could not exist without those words of Christ?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

God is not the author of confusion (1Cor14:33) so did not “found” the confusion of Protestantism or the other religions of the world.

“You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church”. Matt 16:18.

Look for that Church built upon the rock of Peter, for that is the Church Christ built and is building.

Now, what Church would that be…?

Which is the only Church that could not exist without those words of Christ?

Hmmmnn … not too sure about the logic here.
God isn’t the author of sin either yet there is little evidence to suggest that the Catholic Church is a leader in purity amongst the Christian churches and communions available.

I suggest the same holds for “confusion” also.

Faith by definition involves the inability to see - something that was a great trial to Mary and the Apostles from beginning to end even though they “knew” Jesus better than anybody.

I would say that “confusion” is essential in the journey of faith to love. Only lowly, detached and daily purification of our hearts gives us the confidence to walk confidently through this confusion. Not knowing, at least to start with (and maybe for a considerable time), which church is the “true” one would therefore seem a perfectly normal and usual path for those born outside the Catholic Church to me.

 

[scree]

God has made it very simple to know and follow the true religion, but men will not have it. No amount of explaining or living a holy life before others or even praying can overcome man’s obstinate desire to have everything his own way. It’s why man fell in the first place. Why do we think we should be the exception–that God should make special rules just for our generation?

No, I’m not implying anything about special rules for this generation. Although, I will say that the last couple of generations are unique in that there is more knowledge of other religions that there has been in the past. Used to be that you only knew your own religion, and maybe heard of people in a far off land that practiced something different. But now, I work with people from probably 10 different major faiths.

We are either willing to know and love God and our fellow men or we aren’t. Those who aren’t will be judged, and fairly too, as enemies of God. Those who do will be his friends and know eternal happiness. It’s just that simple.

So, do you believe that some people who want to know and love God could conceivably end up in a religion other than Catholicism?

 

[scree]

Hello Scree
How do you define/judge “correct”? It sounds dangerous to uncritically accept a definition on this from the same religion/church we look at joining . This seems to mean we must somehow learn/decide this without external help. A real contradiction. I think this is the deeper source of the difficulty .

Do we really know what is best for us when we are green? How do we grow “brown” in this matter?

Personally I find that it all boils down to “who is my Teacher?” Jesus said “Call no man on earth your Teacher.” That makes the issue even more intriguing.

I take your point. I guess I would consider the correct religion the one that has all of its doctrines correct, or has more doctrines correct than other religions. How would I do this math? I have no idea. If God first showed me the truth, then I could make a decision on which religion is the right (or most correct) one.

 

[scree]

God is not the author of confusion (1Cor14:33) so did not “found” the confusion of Protestantism or the other religions of the world.

“You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church”. Matt 16:18.

Look for that Church built upon the rock of Peter, for that is the Church Christ built and is building.

Now, what Church would that be…?

Which is the only Church that could not exist without those words of Christ?

Of course, you’re just telling me why Catholicism is has a better claim to correctness than Protestantism (and possibly Orthodoxy) in Christianity. But 2/3 of the world is not even Christian to begin with.

I’m not really looking for proofs of Catholicism being true. I’m fairly well versed in Catholic theology and apologetics, so I’ve heard most of the arguments before. I’m asking, why is Catholicism not evident to everyone? Would make it a lot better to know exactly what the truth is before accepting or rejecting it.

Parents will make clear to their children what the rules are. But if parents made it unclear (or gave conflicting information) on what the rules actually are, what is the child to do if he just wants to obey but can’t figure out the rules?

 

[Holly3278]

Another response to the “all religions are equal” thing is this: If all religions are equal then how come so many of them teach contradictory things? Two things that are contradictory cannot both be the truth.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I take your point. I guess I would consider the correct religion the one that has all of its doctrines correct, or has more doctrines correct than other religions. How would I do this math? I have no idea. If God first showed me the truth, then I could make a decision on which religion is the right (or most correct) one.

OK, some fertile avenues I can see in your response:
(1) Internal consistency of doctrines is a good starting point for a robust religion…that’s what I see you saying here. Do you see the “four marks” of the true church salient here?(i.e. one, holy, catholic and apostolic). Another avenue that may help is Lumen Gentium which affirmed that Christ’s Church “subsists” in the Catholic Church. This means that Christ is still at work in other churches to the degree that they possess the marks\structures\means to sanctification that the Catholic Church received and continues to possess in full from Christ. Thus some churches are very close (eg Orthodox) but not fully “Church” because they do not accept the doctrine of (Petrine) Unity. cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=168
(2) “If God first showed me the truth”
I find this statement crucial in your search. But I am not quite sure what you mean - can you tease this out?

 

[Deconi]

God came down here once, taught what He wanted done, established a ‘School’ with teaching authority for all who wanted to enrol, placed a School Principal to be in charge, gave him the Keys to Home and the MANUAL for how to get there!

How much easier do you want it?

It’s actually all there for ANY who want to examine the evidence!

 

[patg]

God came down here once, taught what He wanted done, established a ‘School’ with teaching authority for all who wanted to enrol, placed a School Principal to be in charge, gave him the Keys to Home and the MANUAL for how to get there!

How much easier do you want it?

This one always bothers me. In addition to being all powerful, God must also be “all naive” to think for even a second that you show up once, tell a bunch of humans what to do, and then expect them to carry on for the rest of existence with your message without power struggles, corruption, personality conflicts, greed, politics, egos, etc. derailing the whole thing in very little time. There is no other human run organization that doesn’t eventually involve most of these things without a major reorganization once in a while. We can claim that there has been some sort of divine guidance but that seems to be a tad weak to counter much stronger natural human tendencies. Maybe God really doesn’t care how many divisions of religion there are - I don’t see any evidence that God does…

It’s actually all there for ANY who want to examine the evidence!

Yes, the evidence clearly shows that God doesn’t understand humans at all!

 

[SPH1]

Hmmmnn … not too sure about the logic here.
God isn’t the author of sin either yet there is little evidence to suggest that the Catholic Church is a leader in purity amongst the Christian churches and communions available.

I suggest the same holds for “confusion” also.

Faith by definition involves the inability to see - something that was a great trial to Mary and the Apostles from beginning to end even though they “knew” Jesus better than anybody.

I would say that “confusion” is essential in the journey of faith to love. Only lowly, detached and daily purification of our hearts gives us the confidence to walk confidently through this confusion. Not knowing, at least to start with (and maybe for a considerable time), which church is the “true” one would therefore seem a perfectly normal and usual path for those born outside the Catholic Church to me.

Mary and the apostles had no problem knowing where the true Church was, nor could the New Testament believers in any legitimate sense. The Church organization was set up by Christ and then the apostles and plain for all to see.

When Paul sent Timothy and Titus to ordain, he cautioned about laying on hands hastily. Meaning that not anyone can be a priest or bishop, and the true church settled around those properly ordained. Attend a church (assembly) with someone else who was not properly ordained and you’re likely outside.

Heresy and schism and sin cloud people from seeing the true Church. That and the ability of anyone to spin scripture pretty much any way they wish, to support their own doctrines. In the end, they recognize no authority but themselves. I propose that is the major cause for people not seeing the true Church.

And no, God is not the author of heresy and schism (confusion) but of Truth.

Speaking of which, some groups appear to me to deny the very idea of religious Truth. That Truth is somehow arrogant or impolite. They prefer a more relativistic notion of what-ever is true for you is okay. Replacing Truth with mere opinion…each opinion equally valid.

 

[Della]

No, I’m not implying anything about special rules for this generation. Although, I will say that the last couple of generations are unique in that there is more knowledge of other religions that there has been in the past. Used to be that you only knew your own religion, and maybe heard of people in a far off land that practiced something different. But now, I work with people from probably 10 different major faiths.

That’s true. But living in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society is what helped bring me to the Church, as well as the sexual revolution in which several denominations abandoned the ancient Faith for whatever society dictated, thus joining the world, the flesh and the devil instead of standing against them. Seeing all the options and isms can actually help clarity what is true and what isn’t.

I believe that for those who truly seek the truth and come to hear of the Church they will come into the Church, if they are willing to go wherever the truth leads them. There are some who may believe they are on a search for the truth who are actually on a search for whatever tickles their ears. We have to want to know the truth in order to find it. Those who have never heard of Christ and his Church who seek for God’s truth will know as much as they are able to find within their own faiths. It doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been better off in the Church, though. For Christ died to redeem the world, not just parts of it, and his Church is catholic/universal, not merely the product of a culture.

 

[Della]

This one always bothers me. In addition to being all powerful, God must also be “all naive” to think for even a second that you show up once, tell a bunch of humans what to do, and then expect them to carry on for the rest of existence with your message without power struggles, corruption, personality conflicts, greed, politics, egos, etc. derailing the whole thing in very little time. There is no other human run organization that doesn’t eventually involve most of these things without a major reorganization once in a while. We can claim that there has been some sort of divine guidance but that seems to be a tad weak to counter much stronger natural human tendencies. Maybe God really doesn’t care how many divisions of religion there are - I don’t see any evidence that God does…

Yes, the evidence clearly shows that God doesn’t understand humans at all!

God does all sorts of things that seem foolish to us human beings, such a dying on a cross to save the world. But God isn’t interested in our mere physical well being, but in our eternal destination, for this earthly life is extremely short compared to the existence of the universe, much less to the eternity from which time and space was created.

You mean the God who created us and let us go on breeding even after we’d failed him, who gave us the prophets and his very self in the person of his Son doesn’t understand us? Really? Jesus understood us perfectly when he asked if there would be any faith when he returned. He knew we would embrace his teaching and be part of his Church for a while, but then get it into our heads that we know better and so try to ruin the whole thing. He lets us do all sorts of things we shouldn’t because he won’t stand in our way. We either say to him, “Thy will be done” or “My will be done.” The world is always saying “My will be done”. It’s why his own people shouted for him to be crucified.

We have very powerful enemies working against us–the world that that has rejected God, the flesh with its weaknesses, and the devil, who works in both to bring us down to destruction. But “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son…”

Prayer is the answer to it all–daily prayer, sincere prayer, praying for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. IOW, praciticing the Faith instead of merely talking about it, or looking to others’ failings or being lazy or simply giving in to our own desire to run everything. Sin is real, but so is grace. And the grace of God is always stronger if we avail ourselves of it–that is the key. We must want it in order to have it.

 

[Deconi]

This one always bothers me. In addition to being all powerful, God must also be “all naive” to think for even a second that you show up once, tell a bunch of humans what to do, and then expect them to carry on for the rest of existence with your message without power struggles, corruption, personality conflicts, greed, politics, egos, etc. derailing the whole thing in very little time. There is no other human run organization that doesn’t eventually involve most of these things without a major reorganization once in a while. We can claim that there has been some sort of divine guidance but that seems to be a tad weak to counter much stronger natural human tendencies. Maybe God really doesn’t care how many divisions of religion there are - I don’t see any evidence that God does…

Yes, the evidence clearly shows that God doesn’t understand humans at all!

I see the contrary. God understamds perfectly!

FREEDOM is free, but it is a choice which is useless if you cannot find the truth in any number of choices! Anarchy, the choice t do anything, anytime, anywhere, is not freedom.

Inspite all you say about the frailties of human desires, that ‘bunch of humans’ He taught have still continued His teaching and the School bell rings everyday!

From the evidence,He knows man extremely well.

 

[scree]

(2) “If God first showed me the truth”
I find this statement crucial in your search. But I am not quite sure what you mean - can you tease this out?

Basically, what I’m saying is if God made it very clear to everybody which is the correct religion (or if clearly showed everybody what the truth was), then it would be easier to follow or reject him, because you’d know exactly what you’re being asked to follow. Instead, we have to sift through so many different religions (and so many philosophies in each religion), take our best guess at what the truth actually is, and then decide whether to accept or reject it.

 

[scree]

God came down here once, taught what He wanted done, established a ‘School’ with teaching authority for all who wanted to enrol, placed a School Principal to be in charge, gave him the Keys to Home and the MANUAL for how to get there!

How much easier do you want it?

It’s actually all there for ANY who want to examine the evidence!

And yet 5/6 of the world is not Catholic.

 

[scree]

That’s true. But living in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society is what helped bring me to the Church, as well as the sexual revolution in which several denominations abandoned the ancient Faith for whatever society dictated, thus joining the world, the flesh and the devil instead of standing against them. Seeing all the options and isms can actually help clarity what is true and what isn’t.

Right, and you decided to join Catholicism after being convinced it was the truth. There are also people leaving because they’re convinced it’s not the truth.

Again, not saying that we deserve any special treatment. Just noting that it’s quite a bit different than it used to be where there was only 1 religion you knew of.

I believe that for those who truly seek the truth and come to hear of the Church they will come into the Church, if they are willing to go wherever the truth leads them. There are some who may believe they are on a search for the truth who are actually on a search for whatever tickles their ears. We have to want to know the truth in order to find it. Those who have never heard of Christ and his Church who seek for God’s truth will know as much as they are able to find within their own faiths. It doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been better off in the Church, though.

I hear what you’re saying… but at the same time, other religions will make the same thing. Everybody has evidence they believe amply shows that their faith is the true one. I’m convinced the Catholic one is correct… but it just baffles me why it’s not clearer.

For Christ died to redeem the world, not just parts of it, and his Church is catholic/universal, not merely the product of a culture.

Indeed.