Food for thought (re: abortion)

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Heard about new movie something about “thunder” - would like to get exact title and would like to see it. I understand it’s a well done, professionally made film exposing abortion for the cruel practice it is.
 
These situations occur more often than most realize a very similar thing happen in our family. Unfortunately the young have to make these decisions and they are usually not prepared for such. This is not typical of the abortion debate. Whether abortion is legal or illegal has no bearing on these cases. I still believe the Church gives sound advice. If abortion is legal is there less pain? (see how foolish that sounds). I feel sorry for all those who have this event in their life to include the unborn. Their pain never really leaves, lets not take their rant seriously as it comes from pain and duress.
 
I think this story and Elliot’s are very, very different. I can’t imagine being in this father/husband’s shoes. He is angry and processing that. I don’t think I can judge him.

Kim
 
This is not typical of the abortion debate. Whether abortion is legal or illegal has no bearing on these cases. I still believe the Church gives sound advice. If abortion is legal is there less pain? (see how foolish that sounds).
I don’t understand this at all. The legality certainly does have a bearing on these cases. If abortion was illegal, the man would have had no choice but to stand by and watch his wife bleed, maybe to death, until the baby spontaneously aborted.

I absolutely agree that this is not typical of the debate. But cases like this make me very nervous about flat-out outlawing abortion. Maybe it’s as simple as saying “abortion is illegal, unless doctors have determined that spontaneous abortion is inevitable.” I’ve never heard any pro-lifers suggest such a thing, but I could be wrong.
 
I don’t understand this at all. The legality certainly does have a bearing on these cases. If abortion was illegal, the man would have had no choice but to stand by and watch his wife bleed, maybe to death, until the baby spontaneously aborted.

I absolutely agree that this is not typical of the debate. But cases like this make me very nervous about flat-out outlawing abortion. Maybe it’s as simple as saying “abortion is illegal, unless doctors have determined that spontaneous abortion is inevitable.” I’ve never heard any pro-lifers suggest such a thing, but I could be wrong.
Well we certainly have different understands. There are about 1.6 million abortions per year. Maybe a few thousand in this general class. My understanding is a doctor has always had the right and duty to provide medical treatment for the women. If the doctor had treated this particular woman or another woman while abortion was illegal the standard would be if the women needed the treatment provided. Only if the treatment was deemed optional would the legal system have grounds. Though I admit I am no lawyer or legal expert
 
This is the kind of situation I think about when cautioning people to educate themselves and others about this evil (abortion) that we fight.

Not all measures taken to end a pregnancy would qualify as an abortion in the normal Catholic sense of the word. The situation described by this guy shouldn’t even come up in the pro-life debate because it falls in a different category all together.

This is similar (in my opinion) to ending a pregnancy in the tubes; something (as far as I know) not condemned by the Church. In both situations you may have a pregnancy with a heartbeat which obviously cannot proceed normally. To take the comparison further, the pregnancy in the tube if allowed to continue, would cause the mother to bleed to death (at this stage, if mother dies, baby also dies); the situation with this woman bleeding severely enough to need a transfusion, is the same.

For someone bleeding severely at the end of pregnancy, the decision would be simpler: deliver the baby (care for preemies is excellent) and solve the problem.

Sorry, but I really think the only dilemma here was the guy having to make a decision under extreme stress. It’s clear that the baby could not have been saved apart from the mother and as such there was only one choice: to save the mother by ending the pregnancy. It should have been explained to him that this wasn’t “abortion” in the common meaning of the word. Maybe scientific use of the word abortion (it’s used to refer to any pregnancy loss - induced or natural) in the hospital is what confused the poor guy.

What does that have to do with people killing babies simply because they don’t want them?

What complicates the matter more is that the procedure in “abortion-on-demand” is often identical to the procedure used in the case we are discussing. That’s the reason, abortion can’t be stopped by banning a particular surgery: there are other situations is which those procedures are genuinely necessary.

See this discussion.
 
What does that have to do with people killing babies simply because they don’t want them?
I’m also not a legal expert, but I’m quite sure that doctors are not above the law. If the law said that doctors may not perform abortions, then there would have been no choice. I’m just saying that the life/choice debate is not as easy as some make it out to be.
 
I’m also not a legal expert, but I’m quite sure that doctors are not above the law. If the law said that doctors may not perform abortions, then there would have been no choice. I’m just saying that the life/choice debate is not as easy as some make it out to be.
You’re right in saying that the debate is not as easy as it’s made out to be. Here’s an excerpt from Humanae Vitae:
Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)



Code:
      Lawful Therapeutic Means
  1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.
 
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