Foot washing on Holy Thursday

[benedictgal]

Boy, I sure could have used your help on the gender neutralizing thread. I was flayed because I tried to say “vir” means men of the male gender.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=541176&page=4

Here’s a sample:
InspiritCarol:

I am not quite sure I understand your problem. The rigid, literal reading of words such as “men” or “brethren” to always mean male persons exclusively was an artificial construct of the radical feminist movement. When I was growing up, before radical feminism reared its ugly head, the common understanding was that these words carried both meanings and you chose the one most appropriate. I have never felt in the least bit “excluded” by the words “men” or “brethren” or similar in a Biblical/liturgical context. Or in any other.

But you clearly have a problem, because you have arrived at a completely erroneous conclusion.

This is really not as simple an issue as some of you make it out to be.

I’m very confused: I’m a radical feminist because it makes sense for vir to mean men of the male gender (how stupid that I even have to say that), but here you’re some kind of radical mass killer-feminazi if you do broaden the term “men” to *include *women.

It’s fascinating to me that this discussion should lean so heavily against the Priest/Pastor being allowed to wash women’s feet; wasn’t anyone paying attention to this Sunday’s gospel reading? What does it mean to be a servent? Is the Priest a servent to men only? Guess so. That’s fine, but let’s be clear so we know just where our religion stands. Hmm?

Ah but *some *Bishops see the problem with this. Is it then a good idea to imply their corruption on open sites like this? Without even going to them? How is that helping anyone?

With all due respect, perhaps you did not read the Bishop of Tyler’s explanation:

In** the context of the Holy Thursday liturgy, the ritual of washing the feet of men suggests that strong connection between Christ’s washing His Apostles’ feet and the institution of the Eucharist and Holy Orders. Christ chose on this occasion the twelve men he had chosen to be Apostles. We must conclude, then, that the ritual is intimately connected to the priesthood and the institution of the Eucharist. Its symbolism cannot be reduced to a general theme of service to the whole Church. Therefore, the priest should wash the feet of a select group of men only**.

It’s not that those of us who do not support the inclusion of women in this ritual are uncharitable; rather, we should try to place this act in its proper context.

 

[GraceDK]

It’'s my understanding the Church does not permit the washng of anyone else’s feet. It’s only 12 men, not women, and not children. What your priest is doing is an abuse. Knowing this I’d make one last attempt to talk the priest out of and explain why (it’s an abuse) and then write the bishop.

I never understood that… Why only men? It seems like, not priests, not religious… simply because they are men they may have their feet washed.
I don’t get that.

 

[InspiritCarol]

This is the perfect scenario to “vote with your feet”.
I just refuse to participate in this kind of activities unless it brings an evident disruption to the ceremony and/or too much attention to my actions.

Voting with your feet does nothing to help anyone but you.
Honestly, if you disappear from the congregation I will assume you either

1. Moved away or
2. Stopped being Catholic.

To think that the Archdiocese is bothering to monitor transitions in the congregation numbers or income level is expecting way too much. We’re not talking a “Jack Chick” kind of scenario where “you are being watched”. They don’t have the slightest clue what you are doing.

That is why it is so important to address your concerns directly to those in charge. Please don’t skip the Priest or the Parish Council in the process. The worst is to gossip with other parishioners about problems.

If the priest and the parish council ignore your issue, first, consider that maybe, just maybe you are being wrong-minded on some level. This really may not be the case, but at least consider the possibility. Then, once you are determined that you are in the right, go to your Bishop. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to escalate the matter to Rome, but you better have some very good justification.

 

[Phemie]

Thank you for all the advice. The only reason I agreed to join the committee (I was invited by the priest) is because I wanted to try to correct the abuses I see in our church. The priest seems to be second in command to what the team decides to do. The problem is that the well intentioned people on the team have no idea about the rubrics. In this instance, the priest was arguing for keeping the general washing of the feet and said “but really it is up to you all.” I think that is why the committee voted for to keep it. I am starting to feel that I will make no difference and sometimes feel like going to another parish (where I can grow more spiritually). The thing that keeps me from leaving is all the friends I have made there

The most frustrating experience you’ll have is being on a liturgy committee with an ambivalent pastor, committee members who don’t know the documents and don’t want to know them, and you who want to do what’s right.

I did it for 6 years but the day I protested that 2 priests sitting down while EMHCs gave Communion flew in the face of 4 separate documents only to have one of the priests stand, shake his finger in my face and yell “We’ve never listened to Rome on that before, we’re not about to start now!” was the day I decided to call it quits. That particular priest had been a seminary professor of the Pastor. Is it any wonder there wasn’t a rubric he didn’t mind ignoring?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Wake up and smell the incense!!! Our obligation to charity does not dispense us from obedience!! It is not “uncharitable” not to wash women’s feet, it is simply obedient. If the women have a problem with that, they should take a good long look at their supposed “active participation”…

Wow…this is one of the least charitable things I’ve seen on this board…

 

[InspiritCarol]

With all due respect, perhaps you did not read the Bishop of Tyler’s explanation:

It’s not that those of us who do not support the inclusion of women in this ritual are uncharitable; rather, we should try to place this act in its proper context.

Are we performing the “Last Supper”, or are we trying to demonstrate what Jesus intended?

Just wondering because you must answer this in order to obtain proper context.

 

[InspiritCarol]

The worst experience you’ll have is being on a liturgy committee with an ambivalent pastor, committee members who don’t know the documents and don’t want to know them, and you who want to do what’s right.

I did it for 6 years but the day I protested that 2 priests sitting down while EMHCs gave Communion flew in the face of 4 separate documents only to have one of the priests stand, shake his finger in my face and yell “We’ve never listened to Rome on that before, we’re not about to start now!” was the day I decided to call it quits. That particular priest had been a seminary professor of the Pastor. Is it any wonder there wasn’t a rubric he didn’t mind ignoring?

Phew!

I hope you escalated this matter… or at least fired off a few letters…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Wow…how did this turn from what I thought was the OP’s original point…that instead of the priest simply washing the feet of 12…they turn it into a mass foot washing (no pun intended). That to me is entirely different from what it has turned into…about woman being included in the priest washing of the feet. Seems like there are a few people here who have their own agenda…

 

[benedictgal]

Are we performing the “Last Supper”, or are we trying to demonstrate what Jesus intended?

Just wondering because you must answer this in order to obtain proper context.

There is no need for sarcasm. The rubrics specifically state that the ritual calls for 12 men. The Holy Father washes the feet of 12 men, priests, but, men just the same. The ritual, while unique to the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper, is not the Mass. These are two very different activities. Furthermore, the Chrism Mass is traditionally celebrated the morning of Holy Thursday because Holy Thursday and the priesthood have a specific connection.

Christ ordained these apostles as the first priests. However, in order to participate in the Sacrifice, they had to be ritually purified. It is this same ritual of “purification” that we see when the priest washes his hands during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. While there is the component of the servant involved here. That is one of the reasons why Jesus tells Peter that “not all are clean”, as Judas may have been externally purified, but, he was not ritually purified.

At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we are just as present in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the empty tomb as were the Apostles, the Blessed Mother and St. Mary Magdalene.

Just the same, we need to obey what the Roman Missal and the subsequent mandates issued by the Holy See mandate.

 

[benedictgal]

Wow…how did this turn from what I thought was the OP’s original point…that instead of the priest simply washing the feet of 12…they turn it into a mass foot washing (no pun intended). That to me is entirely different from what it has turned into…about woman being included in the priest washing of the feet. Seems like there are a few people here who have their own agenda…

Actually, this general washing, as inferred by the OP, includes women. What I did was to quote from the norms for the ritual and then one Texas bishop’s explanation as to why it should be 12 men.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Actually, this general washing, as inferred by the OP, includes women. What I did was to quote from the norms for the ritual and then one Texas bishop’s explanation as to why it should be 12 men.

I suggest you go back and read the OP…especially that part that states “Right after the priest washes the feet of 12 people everyone is invited to go to a station and have another person wash their feet.”

It’s my understanding that this is what the OP was upset about…it seems you have made it into the men/women issue.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

In the light 0f charity could we select a woman to wash the priest feet at a Mass - similar to the Gospel.

 

[benedictgal]

I suggest you go back and read the OP…especially that part that states “Right after the priest washes the feet of 12 people everyone is invited to go to a station and have another person wash their feet.”

It’s my understanding that this is what the OP was upset about…it seems you have made it into the men/women issue.

However, 12 people does not necessarily mean that the dozen are exclusive to men. The fact remains that we have to obey the rubrics and what they mandate. Not even the celebrant is the arbitrator of what goes on in the Mass; the Church is.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Wow…this is one of the least charitable things I’ve seen on this board…

Guess you must be one of those evil “feminists” who somehow are able to sway Bishops to your evil cause and subvert the Catholic faith with your wiley ways.

You know what’s really funny to me is that most women don’t want their feet washed. We wear pantyhose (generally). So, we end up with a wet hoes foot or have to wear stockings. Believe me, it’s not easy to get either gender to submit to foot washing. It’s harder than asking a Catholic to sit in the front pew.

The nicest place I saw foot washing done was in a parish where the Authoritarian Jesuit Pastor who ruled with an iron fist, insisted that he wash everyone’s feet in the congregation. It was done as a communion line type process, with a single chair at the front. Obviously, people abstained, but there were far more willing volunteers than we had ever gotten when it was a “reenactment” performance kind of deal. Also the choir sang a beautiful foot-washing song that had thoughtful lyrics to help comprehension and meditation.

Now, I’m not saying that I have a problem with the priest washing men’s feet; but when I see it done that way, I see a play, not a message. Jesus was not too good to drink from the same cup as the Samaritan woman at the well, but maybe he would have drawn the line at washing her feet.

 

[FAB]

For the past couple of years, during the Holy Thursday Mass chairs are set up down the middle aisle. Right after the priest washes the feet of 12 people everyone is invited to go to a station and have another person wash their feet. I am on a liturgy team and asked if we could eliminate this from the Mass this year because it distracts from the Liturgy and real meaning of Holy Thursday (last year it took about 20 min right in the middle of Mass). Some commented that many people like it and look forward to it. One said that the year before her mother had washed her feet so it became a sign of forgiveness. I kept saying the the Mass should be focused on Jesus and not on ourselves. The priest himself said that he knew it wasn’t in the rubrics but washing feet helps others understand The team decided to do the same thing again this year and I feel so disappointed. I just feel that I’m the only one who cares about a properly celebrated Mass sometimes Any advice?

Thus the yearly discussion on washing feet, gender and how many.
My parish does something similar, it’s allowed by the local ordianary with backed up with documentation from USCCB.
This should not be a distraction, but a living symbol, the focus is on the basic message that Jesus thought us, we are to love and care for each other, in doing so we are praising and worshiping our Lord. If someone finds forgivenss or forgives all the better, still following the word of the Lord.

I see the aurgument every year, the rubics say only 12 men. I am a great beliver in following the GIRM, but this is one area were I am glad my ordinary allows a different practice.

 

[benedictgal]

Thus the yearly discussion on washing feet, gender and how many.
My parish does something similar, it’s allowed by the local ordianary with backed up with documentation from USCCB.
This should not be a distraction, but a living symbol, the focus is on the basic message that Jesus thought us, we are to love and care for each other, in doing so we are praising and worshiping our Lord. If someone finds forgivenss or forgives all the better, still following the word of the Lord.

I see the aurgument every year, the rubics say only 12 men. I am a great beliver in following the GIRM, but this is one area were I am glad my ordinary allows a different practice.

Would you please share with us the documentation allowing for the communal washing of the feet? Unless the USCCB has a document bearing the recognitio from the Holy See, I do not think that they would support something that goes against what the rubrics mandate.

 

[InspiritCarol]

I suggest you go back and read the OP…especially that part that states “Right after the priest washes the feet of 12 people everyone is invited to go to a station and have another person wash their feet.”

It’s my understanding that this is what the OP was upset about…it seems you have made it into the men/women issue.

You make a good point. That is very strange … and distracting. I expect it would be confusing to pull off also. Hope they have a lot of hand sanitizer on hand.

 

[utah_rose]

I never understood that… Why only men? It seems like, not priests, not religious… simply because they are men they may have their feet washed.
I don’t get that.

Because Jesus washed the 12 Apostles feet and they were men, Get it?

 

[Cristiano]

Thus the yearly discussion on washing feet, gender and how many.
My parish does something similar, it’s allowed by the local ordianary with backed up with documentation from USCCB.
This should not be a distraction, but a living symbol, the focus is on the basic message that Jesus thought us, we are to love and care for each other, in doing so we are praising and worshiping our Lord. If someone finds forgivenss or forgives all the better, still following the word of the Lord.

I see the aurgument every year, the rubics say only 12 men. I am a great beliver in following the GIRM, but this is one area were I am glad my ordinary allows a different practice.

:banghead::banghead: I can’t believe this! We must follow the GIRM but if we like the abuse then we are fine with it?

What is next? The Mass in English instead of Latin?

Just kidding

Just like you state there are some abuses that I am more willing to tolerate then others, for example our pastor says “for many” instead of “for all”. I am not going to complain to him about it, even if right now he is doing something illicit.

 

[utah_rose]

I’m not understanding the point you are attempting to make with Matt 12. Would you mind explaining? Your statments about “criticizing” the usccb seem to say the USCCB is infallible. Guess what: It’s not.

I am not saying the USCCB is evil, or that they are trying to lead us in the wrong direction (although they have done some questionable things in the past), but what I am saying is that I simply have serious doubts that they received permission to modify this rubric. They even allude to that fact in their article.

**Note:If someone has proof(s) that Rome said they could change it, than speak up! But I’m pretty sure they didn’t. **

This is what they don’t say:
“According to the american adaptations of the Roman Missal, Men and women may have their feet washed.”

What they do say:
"The missal say only men, but … well… most people broke the rules in the past, so now we think you should too, because of the spirit of “love” and “charity” we have.

Wake up and smell the incense!!! Our obligation to charity does not dispense us from obedience!! It is not “uncharitable” not to wash women’s feet, it is simply obedient. If the women have a problem with that, they should take a good long look at their supposed “active participation”.

It is extremely saddening to see things like this coming from our bishops, essentially telling us to defy the missal.

Amen! you hit the “nail on the head”. And, this essentially is disobedience to the Pope.