Footwashing, the Priesthood and the Eucharist

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Actually, your final statement would mean that, as I read it, you would be discounting papal supremacy and the essential role of the Petrine ministry.

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You apparently are (again?) misreading me. Never said that, sorry if you inferred it. Please, if something I type doesn’t make sense just ask me for clarification, I’m happy to correct any misstatement or clarify my imperfect thoughts. No need to assume the worst of me.

Yes, yes, yes I’ve read SC, RS and all other applicable liturgical documents. I just think there is a hierarchy of laws, I don’t read them all as being on the same level (because…in fact…they’re not…the teachings of an ecumenical council are different from a papal encyclical are different from a circular letter from a Congregation are different from a note in a Bishops’ Conference newsletter…and so on).

This doesn’t mean we pick and choose. It simply means we recognize the complexity of the reality of the Church. Not everything is black/white, right/wrong, simple…though it seems many are more comfortable operating in a world like that. There is a significant and important difference in the Church between legislative authority and executive authority. Again…not that it means or implies any idea of “cafeteria” Catholicism i.e. picking and choosing what we want to follow, but rather recognizing the reality of the Church’s self understanding and way of being.

And regarding your idea of “ultimate authority” I’d again encourage you to read and reflect and pray on Lumen Gentium and Canon Law (for starters).
 
You apparently are (again?) misreading me. Never said that, sorry if you inferred it.

Yes, yes, yes I’ve read SC, RS and all other applicable liturgical documents. I just think there is a hierarchy of laws, I don’t read them all as being on the same level (because…in fact…they’re not…the teachings of an ecumenical council are different from a papal encyclical are different from a circular letter from a Congregation are different from a note in a Bishops’ Conference newsletter…and so on).

This doesn’t mean we pick and choose. It simply means we recognize the complexity of the reality of the Church. Not everything is black/white, right/wrong, simple…though it seems many are more comfortable operating in a world like that.
No I did not misread you. These are your words:
The life of the Church cannot, imho, be reduced to what’s received a recognitio from Rome. Thanks be to God.
The Circular Letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the curial office charged to oversee all things liturgical, overrides whatever note a Committee on Divine Worship for a particular national episcopal conference writes. Furthermore, the CDWDS does not write things in a vaccuum. Before anything is promulgated, it goes first before the Pope. This letter is carried out with his authority.

In addition, if a particular national episcopal conference wants to make a change to the norms and rubrics, it must vote on the change, approving it by a 2/3 vote of the Latin Rite bishops and then send the proposal to Rome for the necessary recognitio. They do not act in a vaccuum apart from Rome. If the Holy See approves it, then they will grant the recognitio. If it does not, nothing happens. There appears to have been no formal request from the USCCB for an adaptation to the Mandatum ritual. Thus, they cannot mandate something when they have not received the approval for the proposed amendment.
 
No I did not misread you.
Yes you did, if you accuse me of:
discounting papal supremacy and the essential role of the Petrine ministry.
My saying "The life of the Church cannot, imho, be reduced to what’s received a recognitio from Rome. Thanks be to God. " has nothing to do with discounting papal supremacy or the essential role of the Petrine ministry. You may think it does, but it doesn’t. Sorry.

I have in no way denied or discounted the role of the Papacy.

And while we obviously differ, I have also not accused you of denying or discounting a part of our faith. I’ve suggested some resources for reading and reflection which you’ve ignored, apparently, while I’ve responded to similar suggestions of yours to assure you that I am familiar with references you are basing your opinions on.

I really don’t think this exchange is furthering the topic of the thread, and you seem intent on proving you’re right and I’m wrong regardless of what I say, so it’s probably best not to continue.

Happy Easter.
 
However, even the local ordinary’s authority is limited. He cannot supercede what the Holy See has decreed and this decree is found in Paschale Solemnitatis, which came out a year after the USCCB’s statement. The lower body cannot overrule the Supreme authority, in this case, the Holy See.
From USCCB
Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard,** it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world**. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.
While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men (“viri selecti”), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, “who came to serve and not to be served,” that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.
Allowed and as always, the local ordinary has the final word. Just FYI, could not find the document you are refering to, it does not come up on the Vatican Web site.

Peace,
FAB
 
Yes you did, if you accuse me of:

My saying "The life of the Church cannot, imho, be reduced to what’s received a recognitio from Rome. Thanks be to God. " has nothing to do with discounting papal supremacy or the essential role of the Petrine ministry. You may think it does, but it doesn’t. Sorry.

I have in no way denied or discounted the role of the Papacy.

And while we obviously differ, I have also not accused you of denying or discounting a part of our faith. I’ve suggested some resources for reading and reflection which you’ve ignored, apparently, while I’ve responded to similar suggestions of yours to assure you that I am familiar with references you are basing your opinions on.

I really don’t think this exchange is furthering the topic of the thread, and you seem intent on proving you’re right and I’m wrong regardless of what I say, so it’s probably best not to continue.

Happy Easter.
You are the one who made that statement. May I remind you that neither the USCCB nor the local bishop act in a vaccuum. While they have authority, it is not absolute. That is why your statement was most concerning because, as I read it, you were discounting the supremacy of the Holy See in this matter.

Furthermore, in 2008, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments reiterated the fact that only men should participate in the Mandatum. Please follow this link:

wdtprs.com/images/09_02_11_CDW_mandatum.jpg

Although the Protocol Number was blacked out, it is an official document of the CDWDS and, as such, has appeared in Notitae, the official publication of the CDWDS.

You say that you are familiar with the references to the documents that I have given. Nonetheless, none of these documents support your claims.
 
From USCCB

Allowed and as always, the local ordinary has the final word. Just FYI, could not find the document you are refering to, it does not come up on the Vatican Web site.

Peace,
FAB
FAB, the Holy See does have the final word in this case. If you follow this link:

wdtprs.com/images/09_02_11_CDW_mandatum.jpg

you will find that this is the latest response from the CDWDS. Furthermore, even though the document does not appear in the website, www.adoremus.org does have an impresssive library and you can find Paschale Solemnitatis here:

adoremus.org/PaschaleSolemnitatis.html

Just because you cannot find it in the Vatican website does not mean that this document does not exist.

Furthermore, please provide proof that this “amendment” to the Mandatum ritual was ever given recogitio by the Holy See, especially since the same Congregation that would have given this recognitio noted that the ritual is reserved solely for men.
 
You are the one who made that statement. May I remind you that neither the USCCB nor the local bishop act in a vaccuum. While they have authority, it is not absolute. That is why your statement was most concerning because, as I read it, you were discounting the supremacy of the Holy See in this matter.

Furthermore, in 2008, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments reiterated the fact that only men should participate in the Mandatum. Please follow this link:

wdtprs.com/images/09_02_11_CDW_mandatum.jpg

Although the Protocol Number was blacked out, it is an official document of the CDWDS and, as such, has appeared in Notitae, the official publication of the CDWDS.

You say that you are familiar with the references to the documents that I have given. Nonetheless, none of these documents support your claims.
This document is a response letter that only restates what is in the Rite and then leaves it up to the local ordinary. There is nothing in it that over rules the authority of the USCCB.

Peace,
FAB
 
May I remind you that neither the USCCB nor the local bishop act in a vaccuum. While they have authority, it is not absolute. That is why your statement was most concerning because, as I read it, you were discounting the supremacy of the Holy See in this matter. .
This is exactly my point, that you seemed to ignore. NO BISHOP ACTS IN A VACUUM. Neither does a Congregation.

Did you bother to look at Lumen Gentium or Canon Law?? Apparently not.

You can keep accusing me of discounting the supremacy of the Holy See all you want, but I never did and frankly I think it’s rather disingenuous of you not to mention mean-spirited. Despite our differences of opinion, I’ve never accused you of unfaithfulness to the Catholic faith.

The image/link you shared…yes, yes, yes, and again, yes I am familiar with that somewhat relevant document. Certainly it should be considered, and carefully, as it came from the CDWDS. But…and this is important even if you refuse to recognize it…it is simply, factually, objectively (any adjective I’m missing?) not applicable to the universal Church in the way that liturgical law is, or even the Circular Letter PS is. It is a letter written to (who?) as an individual…and by that very fact not binding in the same way that Canon Law, encyclicals, instructions, circular letters, etc. are (and again even all those have different “weights” and authority).

Please…before you attack me and dismiss my thoughts again, read that last sentence very carefully. I’m not asking you to agree with it, I know you’re right and I’m wrong, I just wish for once I could sense that you are really “listening” to someone who sees things differently than you, or understand things differently than you. In the end, of course, you’re right, and I’m sorry that others of us must be so trying on your patience for failing to see how simple the Catholic way of life is.

I’m glad for you that things are apparently so black and white, right and wrong, cut and dried. I have yet to find that world in any parish I’ve been in.

I know nothing I’ve shared here has any relevance because it has no Recognitio from the Holy See.

FAB–thanks for a voice of reason to this exchange, nice to know SOMEONE out there is capable of listening without blinders on.

Happy Easter.
 
This document is a response letter that only restates what is in the Rite and then leaves it up to the local ordinary. There is nothing in it that over rules the authority of the USCCB.

Peace,
FAB
He only says that if there are further problems, the bishop should handle them.

Here is what the letter says:
According to the Missale Romanum (tertia editio typica 2002), Feria V in Caena Domini, vespertinam, No. 11, the washing of the feet, is reserved to the “chosen men” (viri selecti), that is, male persons. This is also stated in the Ceremoniale Episcoporum (editio typica 1984, reimpressio 1995), no. 301. This Discastery considers this legislation clear and wishes to add nothing further.
Should your problem persist, the Congregation would remind you that you write again to the Diocesan Bishop…
Evidently, this was a problem to the point that the CDWDS had to restate what the norm is. The CDWDS recommended to the author of the letter that he write to the bishop if the problem persisted. The CDWDS did not say that the bishop had the authority to change this ritual since it made very clear that the washing of the feet is reserved to male persons. In fact, the CDWDS did not wish to add anything further because it considers the legislation clear.
 
The USCCB has authority only from the bishops who give it their own. The USCCB does not have authority to override liturgical rubrics. That is reserved to the Holy See. Now if the Holy See issueda document saying that the local ordinary may allow whomever he wants to have their feet washed, then, yes, the local ordinary would have the say. Problem is that no such leeway has been given to the local ordinary to change this very ancient liturgy.
All these very obvious dissents from the liturgy by committees of the USCCB really shows who is trying to run the Church here. Yes, refusal to acknowledge the authourity of the Holy Father is definitely not Catholic. The Pope has the primacy, not any bishop or layman.
 
This is exactly my point, that you seemed to ignore. NO BISHOP ACTS IN A VACUUM. Neither does a Congregation.

Did you bother to look at Lumen Gentium or Canon Law?? Apparently not.

You can keep accusing me of discounting the supremacy of the Holy See all you want, but I never did and frankly I think it’s rather disingenuous of you not to mention mean-spirited. Despite our differences of opinion, I’ve never accused you of unfaithfulness to the Catholic faith.

The image/link you shared…yes, yes, yes, and again, yes I am familiar with that somewhat relevant document. Certainly it should be considered, and carefully, as it came from the CDWDS. But…and this is important even if you refuse to recognize it…it is simply, factually, objectively (any adjective I’m missing?) not applicable to the universal Church in the way that liturgical law is, or even the Circular Letter PS is. It is a letter written to (who?) as an individual…and by that very fact not binding in the same way that Canon Law, encyclicals, instructions, circular letters, etc. are (and again even all those have different “weights” and authority).

Please…before you attack me and dismiss my thoughts again, read that last sentence very carefully. I’m not asking you to agree with it, I know you’re right and I’m wrong, I just wish for once I could sense that you are really “listening” to someone who sees things differently than you, or understand things differently than you. In the end, of course, you’re right, and I’m sorry that others of us must be so trying on your patience for failing to see how simple the Catholic way of life is.

I’m glad for you that things are apparently so black and white, right and wrong, cut and dried. I have yet to find that world in any parish I’ve been in.

I know nothing I’ve shared here has any relevance because it has no Recognitio from the Holy See.

FAB–thanks for a voice of reason to this exchange, nice to know SOMEONE out there is capable of listening without blinders on.

Happy Easter.
Why are you so adamant to discount the Circular Letter? That is what both you and FAB are, in essence, saying. The Circular Letter carries much more weight than any statement made by a committee of the USCCB. What both of you do not seem to accept is that the Supreme Rule-Making authority in all of this is the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The bishop’s authority is limited in that he cannot go against what the Holy See has already decreed. Nor can any national episcopal conference. In fact, the letter from the CDWDS that dates back to May 2008 makes it clear what the norm is for the Washing of the Feet:
According to the Missale Romanum (tertia editio typica 2002), Feria V in Caena Domini, vespertinam, No. 11, the washing of the feet, is reserved to the “chosen men” (viri selecti), that is, male persons. This is also stated in the Ceremoniale Episcoporum (editio typica 1984, reimpressio 1995), no. 301. This Discastery considers this legislation clear and wishes to add nothing further.
Evidently, the Holy See, in this case, the CDWDS, sees this issue as clear cut and black and white.

If the USCCB wants to make a change to the Mandatum ritual, it needs to bring forth a proposal and put it before a vote of the Latin-Rite bishops. If 2/3 of the Latin Rite bishops vote for the change, it must then be sent to the Holy See, namely the CDWDS, which will then either grant the necessary recognitio for the adaptation or not.

Furthermore, the CDWDS has already indicated in several documents, including the GIRM and the Ceremonial for Bishops, that the Mandatum is reserved to male persons. If the Holy See had wanted to change the Mandatum, it would have done so when it promulgated the 2002 edition of the GIRM and when it reprinted the CE in 1995. Thus, Rome had two chances to do this and the Holy See chose not to do so. To my knowledge, Paschale Solemnitatis remains in force and has not been abrogated by the Holy See. and, it remains consistent with the other documents that the CDWDS has cited.
 
It’s not that simple.

A Circular Letter from a Congregation is not necessarily “law.” So it does not necessarily supersede what a diocesan bishop may decide. The diocesan bishop is the chief liturgist and legislator for his diocese, while OF COURSE always acting in communion with the Pope and all other bishops. It’s not accurate to simply assume that diocesan bishop is “lower” than anything that comes from the Vatican. Read Lumen Gentium and the Code of Canon Law regarding the nature of the episcopacy and the papacy.

I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as many might like. And, from what I’ve observed, many bishops don’t either as I’ve observed such a wide variety of practices in many dioceses regarding this specific ritual (which I of course am not assuming indicates there are a whole bunch of dissident or ignorant bishops out there).
I agree. I guess some would be happier if the bishops consulted the CAF on a greater number of issues…
 
*Responses from the CDW are not given for the benefit of just one bishop (or archbishop, as the case may be). The clarification that Cardinal O’Malley received on the question of the washing of women’s feet on Holy Thursday may validly be used as precedent by other bishops when considering the pastoral situation in their dioceses.

At best, we can say that this Q&A from the CDW apparently was not published in its entirety and so we do not have the entire text of the document to which we can refer. It was merely quoted by the Archdiocese of Boston in explaining Cardinal O’Malley’s decision to begin washing women’s feet on Holy Thursday. Until the text is published in its entirety, there is still room for doubt for all that it covers and how far its directive extends. But it would also be uncharitable to fault bishops who avail themselves of the precedent it sets.*

Michelle Arnold
CAF Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4983978
 
Responses from the CDW are not given for the benefit of just one bishop (or archbishop, as the case may be). The clarification that Cardinal O’Malley received on the question of the washing of women’s feet on Holy Thursday may validly be used as precedent by other bishops when considering the pastoral situation in their dioceses.

At best, we can say that this Q&A from the CDW apparently was not published in its entirety and so we do not have the entire text of the document to which we can refer. It was merely quoted by the Archdiocese of Boston in explaining Cardinal O’Malley’s decision to begin washing women’s feet on Holy Thursday. Until the text is published in its entirety, there is still room for doubt for all that it covers and how far its directive extends. But it would also be uncharitable to fault bishops who avail themselves of the precedent it sets.

Michelle Arnold
CAF Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4983978
Actually, with all due respect to Ms. Arnold (she and I have exchanged PMs on this), the fact remains that the letter from the CDWDS which I quoted is dated May 2008, well after what the Metropolitan of Boston did. Furthermore, this letter was specifically addressed to him and in addition, it does not appear anywhere in the source that she cites, namely the diocesan newspaper. In addition, the text of the letter was not even published in the article that she cited. Thus, to use this to justify and make your argument when we do not even have the actual document is rather moot.

The authoritative documents of the Holy See, including PS, the GIRM and the Ceremonial for Bishops clearly indicate that, as the CDWDS notes, the Mandatum is reserved to male persons. Deviation from this was allowed for one metropolitan. It was not a blanket dispensation. Had that been the case, the CDWDS would have made mention of it in its letter from May 2008.
 
This document is a response letter that only restates what is in the Rite and then leaves it up to the local ordinary. There is nothing in it that over rules the authority of the USCCB.

Peace,
FAB
FAB,
Here’s the point you keep missing, that I keep repeating. The 1987 “document” is not a statement of the USCCB. It is not a decision by the bishop’s conference. It has no force of law–absolutely none. You are confusing the authority of the bishops with the authority of the liturgy committee newsletter, but the two are not the same thing. The newsletter article is nothing more than that, simply an article which has no force, no authority.

On the other hand, an official interpretation (“response to a question”) from the Holy See does have force of law because the Congregation for Divine Worship has the authority to issue official and binding interpretations of liturgical law–that is one of the primary functions of the Congregation.

That’s why the decision by the Congregation far outweighs any newletter published by a committee.

At no point in the letter from Rome does the Holy See say that interpreting the rubrics is a matter for the local ordinary to decide. I’m not sure where you get that from because the letter itself says the exact opposite of that.
 
The USCCB has authority only from the bishops who give it their own.
Wrong. Canon law provides certain authorities to national conferences of bishops.

CIC, vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1L.HTM
Can. 455 §1. A conference of bishops can only issue general decrees in cases where universal law has prescribed it or a special mandate of the Apostolic See has established it either motu proprio or at the request of the conference itself.

§2. The decrees mentioned in §1, in order to be enacted validly in a plenary meeting, must be passed by at least a two thirds vote of the prelates who belong to the conference and possess a deliberative vote. They do not obtain binding force unless they have been legitimately promulgated after having been reviewed by the Apostolic See.

§3. The conference of bishops itself determines the manner of promulgation and the time when the decrees take effect.

§4. In cases in which neither universal law nor a special mandate of the Apostolic See has granted the power mentioned in §1 to a conference of bishops, the competence of each diocesan bishop remains intact, nor is a conference or its president able to act in the name of all the bishops unless each and every bishop has given consent.
The USCCB does not have authority to override liturgical rubrics.
Depends upon the specific conference. The USCCB DOES have the ability to legitimately override certain norms, as granted by the Holy See in various places. Specifically, postural issues for particular national conferences are a standard authority, granted by the Roman GIRM, and thus the reason that national versions of the GIRM do in fact differ from each other, once passed by 2/3 vote of that National Conference’s membership in plenary coucil.
That is reserved to the Holy See.
It is reserved to the Holy See to approve local overrides to the universal rubrics. Rome has done so for several conferences in specific cases, for example, the authorization for the Far-east conferences to permit the bright red cassocks to clerics in those nations, as that color is in fact the local traditional color for clerics of several faiths.

The USCCB, the AusCCB and the CCCB have all been granted permission to make standing reception the norm; in fact, that is a universal permission to the conferences to make that decision, NOT the local bishop. Some conferences never adopted it; others made it the norm; it is relatively recently that Rome altered the authority such that kneeling reception may not be prohibited. (But standing reception may be declared either normative or prohibited, while kneeling may be declared mandatory, or non-normative, but may not be prohibited.)

Lots of elements of liturgy are under the discretion of the national conferences; they are not delineated clearly in canon law, but the means by which that authority is granted are.

The USCCB can’t override the CDWS without Papal approval; it is within the competence to enact such legislation, and that legislation is subject to veto by the pope. They have not enacted such legislation, and should they ever do so, it will require papal approval before they may publish the legislation and/or act upon it.
 


Lots of elements of liturgy are under the discretion of the national conferences; they are not delineated clearly in canon law, but the means by which that authority is granted are.

The USCCB can’t override the CDWS without Papal approval; it is within the competence to enact such legislation, and that legislation is subject to veto by the pope. They have not enacted such legislation, and should they ever do so, it will require papal approval before they may publish the legislation and/or act upon it.
That’s precisely the point (and overall a good post, but I’ve quoted only the part I’d like to repeat for the sake of discussion). The USCCB has not enacted such legislation. That’s the point which so many readers/posters here keep missing. All too often people think that what’s read in a newsletter carries the same authority as the actual liturgical norms of the Church, yet this is not true.

Yes, the USCCB cannot override the CDWS, and even moreso, a committee newsletter most certainly does not overturn the CDWS authoritative interpretation.
 
I asked a canon law lawyer about who’s authority ruled the Holy See or USCCB. He said that it is very unlikely of any conflict because of consultation and the approval that the Holy See. There are items though that do become part of liturgy and law, which is allowed under the canon, and that is practices of local custom. The washing of feet other than that of just 12 men has become a custom of the Church in America for over 20 years. In some places, such as my diocese it is allowed. As such it is local custom and is allowed under the liturgy and canon.
There are also pastoral components to these practices. The importance to show that no one is excluded from the service orr Jesus, and that no one is excluded from doing service for Jesus can be particularly exhibited in this yearly ritual.

Peace,
FAB
 
I asked a canon law lawyer about who’s authority ruled the Holy See or USCCB. He said that it is very unlikely of any conflict because of consultation and the approval that the Holy See. There are items though that do become part of liturgy and law, which is allowed under the canon, and that is practices of local custom. The washing of feet other than that of just 12 men has become a custom of the Church in America for over 20 years. In some places, such as my diocese it is allowed. As such it is local custom and is allowed under the liturgy and canon.
There are also pastoral components to these practices. The importance to show that no one is excluded from the service orr Jesus, and that no one is excluded from doing service for Jesus can be particularly exhibited in this yearly ritual.

Peace,
FAB
However, both you and the canon lawyer have not taken into account Paschale Solemnitatis, nor the fact that the washing of the Feet of 12 men is not just a custom in the Church in America. It has been the universal custom. In fact, the Holy Father does this mandatum in Rome.

It is not about being exclusive. It is about following the tradition that has been repeatedly spelled out by the Holy See. The USCCB is not the rule-making authority here. If it wants to make an adaption, such has to receive a 2/3 vote of the Latin Rite bishops in order for it to be submitted to Rome. Then, the Holy See makes that call.
 
However, both you and the canon lawyer have not taken into account Paschale Solemnitatis, nor the fact that the washing of the Feet of 12 men is not just a custom in the Church in America. It has been the universal custom. In fact, the Holy Father does this mandatum in Rome.
Once again. This document does not have the force of law. It was a private response and left the final decision and action to the local ordinary.
Just remember, the Pharasis were very much entrinched in the rule of law. As such they became oppressive, even to the point of the crucifiction of Christ.
As I have tried to express, look beyond the law to the meaning of the action. Looking at John 13 “he began to wash his disiples’ feet”. It Doesn’t say aposltes and we know many were his desiples including women. It is the message that we must serve each other as Jesus served us. Should this action only apply to men, or the clergy? Certainly not. It is to apply to everyone, men, women, children included.

Peace,
FAB
 
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