For Anglicans - differences in Masses

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Contarini said:
I don’t know where you get that idea. I think the evidence points pretty solidly in the opposite direction. Cranmer’s convictions were solidly Protestant, indeed specifically Reformed in my opinion, before the death of Henry VIII. To some degree he sold out–or at least watered down–his Protestant principles in order to maintain his position under Henry VIII. Diarmaid MacCulloch documents Cranmer’s battle for “evangelicalism” (in the 16th-century sense) in great detail in his magisterial biography.

I’m not sure that Rome recognized such a distinction, frankly. Certainly Henry’s position was ambiguous.

If you’re talking about the Anglican Missal, sure. But this dates from 1921. By your own premises, then, it follows that Anglicans had no valid Mass for three and a half centuries, and then had to get it from the RCs. This makes no sense to me. It would have been far more honorable, on these premises, to follow Newman and convert to the RCC. The Anglo-Catholicism you defend looks like sheer fantasy to me. I know that you have equally harsh opinions of my version of Anglicanism. I am speaking honestly and will not take offense at you for doing the same thing.

If you are talking about the traditional BCP, then your claim is simply nonsense.

Never mind that there is no “Vatican I” Mass, though I understand that you are referring essentially to the Mass of Pope Pius V.

]

Sure, it sounds goofy. But how is it unorthodox, much less apostate? Actually I’ve become rather fond of it, though I wouldn’t want to hear it all the time.

Edwin
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I agree with Contarini, as to Cranmer.

GKC
 
Contarini said:
They were expected to confess publicly if they committed a very serious sin, true. Private confession is generally thought to have only become common among laity in the early Middle Ages, though a friend of mine (a moderately traditionalist Catholic) claimed that St. John Chrysostom refers to private confession as if it were a normal practice. I haven’t looked at the passage in question myself.

The public confession that we have in the Anglican tradition was a Protestant practice replacing private confession and expressing Law-Gospel theology. Anglo-Catholics need to deal with that. It’s one of the basic ambiguities in Anglicanism. It’s true that Catholics have the Confiteor–but that was originally part of the priest’s and servers’ devotional preparation for Mass. The placement of the confession in Anglican liturgy clearly reflects 16th-century Protestant theology. I don’t see this as a bad thing, necessarily, but it is in fact an innovation and Anglo-Catholic traditionalists need to be honest about this.

I think that the practice of using the confession throughout the year except during Easter is a pretty good one, myself.

Depends whom you ask. I don’t think he’s awful–just vastly overrated by people of a contemporary liturgical bent (i.e., post-Vatican-II Catholics and mainline Protestants). I think some of his songs are very good, but he’s not a patch on Wesley or Gerhardt or the translations of John Mason Neale. I mentioned him because you mentioned one of his songs: “Gather Us In.” I actually had my first quarrel with my wife (then my girlfriend) over this song–she sang it in church and I started criticizing it afterwards. . . . We’ve influenced each other over the years, so I probably like it more than I did then, but I still wince at the “not in the dark of buildings confining” part.

I’ve skimmed it and will probably come back to it later. It’s very interesting–thanks! Definitely the Canadian BAS goes a lot farther than the 1979 US BCP. One of my long-term concerns is that 1979 may turn out to play a similar role to 1549, in being a relatively conservative transitional form. At some point in the next few decades there is going to be a move toward a new BCP in the U.S., which is going to depart far more radically from the tradition. I’m pretty sure of that.

Edwin
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I agree with Contarini, as to the fate of the 79 book. Have for years.

I also agree with his statement “Depends whom you ask”. I have been thinking of getting it copyrighted.

GKC
 
What have you disagreed with Edwin about regarding Cranmer? Cranmer is a pretty simple guy to characterize IMO.

Congrats with the new books.

Kids are on the mend but 2 out of 3 are still feeling like garbage. It’s been like an infirmery in our house, no joke! Awful stuff…I felt like a plague from Constantinople hit us, yeesh!
GKC said:
I’m almost certain I’ve never agreed with Contarini about Cranmer before.

In other news, I bought 13 new books yesterday.

How’s the family?

GKC
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
What have you disagreed with Edwin about regarding Cranmer? Cranmer is a pretty simple guy to characterize IMO.

Congrats with the new books.

Kids are on the mend but 2 out of 3 are still feeling like garbage. It’s been like an infirmery in our house, no joke! Awful stuff…I felt like a plague from Constantinople hit us, yeesh!
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I’m almost certain Contarini and I have never discussed Cranmer.

Glad to hear the kids are feeling better. I’ve been reading JUSTINIAN’S FLEA, which gives me an idea on your analogy

GKC
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
What have you disagreed with Edwin about regarding Cranmer? Cranmer is a pretty simple guy to characterize IMO.

Congrats with the new books.

Kids are on the mend but 2 out of 3 are still feeling like garbage. It’s been like an infirmery in our house, no joke! Awful stuff…I felt like a plague from Constantinople hit us, yeesh!
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Glad they’re feeling better!
 
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