? for believers in the Trinity as God

[ComeHome2Rome]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament & Jesus, although did say He & the Father were One & He is I AM, didn’t clearly reveal God as Trinity either and that the clear definition of Trinity wasn’t revealed in the Bible at all, but only became clear a few hundred years after Jesus’ Resurrection?

I believe in the Trinity, but every now & again I wonder.

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

 

[Attejohannes]

As an orthodox, you certainly know the Old Testament Trinity (the Lord as three angels visiting Abraham (Genesis 18).

In the New Testament there are several instances 1) in which Jesus and God the Father are mentioned as identical (John 1; Romans 9:5 etc) and 2) In which the Holy Spirit is linked with God the Father or Father and the Son (John 14: 16-17; the grand commission in Matthew 18:19; 1. Corintheans 3: 16). And, of course the Annunciation (Luke 1: 36) reveals us that while Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, He should be called as the Son of God.

Therefore there has been quite from the beginning an understanding among Christians that when we talk about God, we talk about three (uncreated) Persons.

While there was not any exact terminology regarding the Trinity before the Council of Nicea (the word Trinity, if I remember correctly, was first used by Tertullian in the beginning of the third century), the doctrin was there, all along. And the early Christians had no problems with it.

So far so good. As a practical Lutheran I have always considered that we should not bother ourselves too much with matters that have not been revealed to us. With our limited intellect we cannot penetrate the mysteries of God and we should be careful to make dogmatic statements of matters that God has not deemed fit to make known (for example, the Filioque dispute).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Incarnation another great mystery.

 

[philial]

Without the Trinity you have to face the problem of a loving God with no one to love, a communicating God with no one to communicate with, a father without a Son!!!

That would mean God would have been forced to create the angels, at least, in order to fulfill his needs. No, by being the Trinity, God is complete & self-contained as a community, a family, a fully communicating being.

This means He was free to create or not, and as he did, so it was an act of selfless love, not of his selfish need.

 

[bzkoss236]

As an orthodox, you certainly know the Old Testament Trinity (the Lord as three angels visiting Abraham (Genesis 18).

In the New Testament there are several instances 1) in which Jesus and God the Father are mentioned as identical (John 1; Romans 9:5 etc) and 2) In which the Holy Spirit is linked with God the Father or Father and the Son (John 14: 16-17; the grand commission in Matthew 18:19; 1. Corintheans 3: 16). And, of course the Annunciation (Luke 1: 36) reveals us that while Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, He should be called as the Son of God.

Therefore there has been quite from the beginning an understanding among Christians that when we talk about God, we talk about three (uncreated) Persons.

While there was not any exact terminology regarding the Trinity before the Council of Nicea (the word Trinity, if I remember correctly, was first used by Tertullian in the beginning of the third century), the doctrin was there, all along. And the early Christians had no problems with it.

So far so good. As a practical Lutheran I have always considered that we should not bother ourselves too much with matters that have not been revealed to us. With our limited intellect we cannot penetrate the mysteries of God and we should be careful to make dogmatic statements of matters that God has not deemed fit to make known (for example, the Filioque dispute).

And not to mention that we are told by Jesus to baptize “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”, which if any of these were not God, would be pointless to baptize in the name of. And also, since there is only one God, that must mean that these 3 are the same one God, but as they are also individuals, they must be individual persons in the one God. Hence, the Trinity.

 

[jrtrent]

I don’t know that it’s reconciled for me, but I like the definition given in the quote below, and especially the acknowledgement that it’s okay if our human minds can’t grasp, or perhaps even adequately express, the reality of God’s nature.

Orthodox Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the Holy Trinity, the one God. Following the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers, the Church believes that the Trinity is three divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia). It is paradoxical to believe thus, but that is how God has revealed himself. . . The source and unity of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus, the Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction. To try to comprehend unbegottenness (Father), begottenness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity, says the holy Gregory the Theologian, and so the Church approaches God in divine mystery, approaching God apophatically, being content to encounter God personally and yet realize the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend Him. orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Trinity

 

[campeador]

Genesis Chapter 1:26
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P3.HTM#-4

 

[jericho777]

Also God is expressed in the plural form. Gen 1:1 actually translates"In the beginning Gods (plural) created the heavens and earth." And in Gen 1:1 the word “God” is the third word mentioned. In Hebrew even word position can have significance. In Deut 6:4 God is expresses as singular and plural at the same time.

 

[aspirant]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament

Assuming you mean explicitly revelation (which I don’t believe happened) as opposed to implicit revelation (which I do think was happening), no, it doesn’t really bother me. I think the gradual self-revelation of God, the preparation God made for the incarnation, was well suited to his people and their circumstances.

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE.

There is only one God. God’s people, living as they did in the midst of many forms of polytheism, desperately needed to know that and practice accordingly.

And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

Christ more explicitly reveals that the one God is three Persons. Subsequent people had questions regarding what this does and doesn’t mean. Christian theologians and Ecumenical Councils worked, in the light of revelation and tradition and with the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit, on answering those new questions as they arose. The content of our faith, the revelation we have already received, has been made even more explicit as new questions have arisen. That makes sense to me so, no, it doesn’t bother me.

To use a much easier example, consider new moral questions. Ancient Christians had the fullness of divine revelation, but they nevertheless “did not know” what we know about the morality of driving an automobile because there were no automobiles. Only after the automobile was invented did we begin to ask questions about whether and how we might observe God’s commandments while driving one. Those new questions are not answered with new revelation, but with exploration and application of the revelation already received to the new questions, something ancient Christians would not have done-- or even thought of-- because there was no automobile to occasion the questions.

 

[concretecamper]

All Christians that profess the Trinity are submitting to the Tradition of the Catholic Church. The doctrine is not in the Bible…hmmm

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament & Jesus, although did say He & the Father were One & He is I AM, didn’t clearly reveal God as Trinity either and that the clear definition of Trinity wasn’t revealed in the Bible at all, but only became clear a few hundred years after Jesus’ Resurrection?

I believe in the Trinity, but every now & again I wonder.

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

Just go to the book of Genesis,

At the very first moment of creation when God speaks-the Word is Jesus. And, [let us make man in our image] …in our image?? God did not have a mouse in His pocket.

“Us” is the Father and the Son in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Genesis Chapter 1:26
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P3.HTM#-4

Yes, but not a single ancient Hebrew or Jew believed in anything except One God. They did not / do not believe in or taught or teach in Three Persons in One God aka the Trinity.

Interestingly, Islam’s Koran also uses the ‘royal we/us’ for what Allah says, yet they too do not & have not believed in or taught that God is anything more than One.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I don’t know that it’s reconciled for me, but I like the definition given in the quote below, and especially the acknowledgement that it’s okay if our human minds can’t grasp, or perhaps even adequately express, the reality of God’s nature.

Orthodox Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the Holy Trinity, the one God. Following the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers, the Church believes that the Trinity is three divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia). It is paradoxical to believe thus, but that is how God has revealed himself. . . The source and unity of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus, the Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction. To try to comprehend unbegottenness (Father), begottenness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity, says the holy Gregory the Theologian, and so the Church approaches God in divine mystery, approaching God apophatically, being content to encounter God personally and yet realize the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend Him. orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Trinity

 

[dzheremi]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament…

No, I can’t say I do.

We trust in the Holy Spirit and what He has revealed to us via the apostles, their disciples, the fathers, the councils, etc. See John 16:12-14, the Nicene Creed, etc.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

God is still ONE, it’s just that our comprehension of His existence has evolved. Some of the oldest explicit references to the Trinity is actually in a Gnostic scripture most likely written by Valentinus in the mid second century, the Gospel of Philip:

“The Father” and “the Son” are single names; “the Holy Spirit” is a double name. For they are everywhere: they are above, they are below; they are in the concealed, they are in the revealed. The Holy Spirit is in the revealed: it is below. It is in the concealed: it is above.

The idea of the concealed and revealed is important here – the concept of the Trinity may have been concealed for ages, but it was Christ who revealed its truth to us.

Those who receive the Name of the father, the son, and holy spirit…[are] no longer a Christian, but a Christ

The emphasis is mine… but I think the important bit is that “name” is singular, emphasizing the single unified nature of the Trinity.

Yes, this is Gnostic scripture not contained in the Bible, but it indicates that the Trinity was a very real belief of Christians very early on. There are also certainly indications of it in canonical scripture, as others have mentioned. It may not have been said explicitly, but the idea of the unity of the Trinity is there.

 

[ajecphotos]

Matthew 17:

** 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 **

How Does one explain this?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament & Jesus, although did say He & the Father were One & He is I AM, didn’t clearly reveal God as Trinity either and that the clear definition of Trinity wasn’t revealed in the Bible at all, but only became clear a few hundred years after Jesus’ Resurrection?

I believe in the Trinity, but every now & again I wonder.

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

I think the only problem was with God the Son - Who was not incarnate yet. So naturally, the concept would not be present.

I respectfully differ in regards with the Spirit of God. Here’s a small sample of the Holy Spirit’s work in the OT (RSVCE):

*Ge 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”

Ge 41:38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find such a man as this, in whom is the Spirit of God?” 39 So Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discreet and wise as you are; 40 you shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command; only as regards the throne will I be greater than you.”

Nu 27:18 And the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him; 19 cause him to stand before Eleazar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight. 20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.

Dt 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him; so the people of Israel obeyed him, and did as the Lord had commanded Moses.

1 Sa 10:6 Then the spirit of the Lord will come mightily upon you, and you shall prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

1 Sa 10:10 When they came to Gibe-ah, behold, a band of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came mightily upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Sa 19:20 Then Saul sent messengers to take David; and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.*

So the concept of the Spirit of God is pretty abundant in the OT.

Paul also explains the mystery of Christ and that it was kept hidden until His Incarnation and the Revelation of God to His Apostles:

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

This same Spirit of God made it known to us.

The Jewish people had plenty of opportunities to hear Christ and the Apostles. They just did not agree with them or with God’s revelation

So while the Trinity is indeed a divine mystery, the Jewish people did have the Spirit of God with them.

Peace.

 

[campeador]

Yes, but not a single ancient Hebrew or Jew believed in anything except One God. They did not / do not believe in or taught or teach in Three Persons in One God aka the Trinity.

Interestingly, Islam’s Koran also uses the ‘royal we/us’ for what Allah says, yet they too do not & have not believed in or taught that God is anything more than One.

The nature of The Trinity wasn’t fully revealed until the coming of Our Lord, although there are several hints, one of which I offered above. Here are some more:

**Genesis 3:22 **—
Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad!

Genesis 11:7—
Let us then go down and there confuse their language, so that one will not understand what another says."

Isaiah 6:8 —
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?" “Here I am,” I said; “send me!”
There are several more instances in the Old Testament referring to God in the plural. The ancient Jews must have wondered why the divinely inspired authors of the Bible spoke of God in this way.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

The 'Royal We" is used by God in the Bible & by Allah in the Koran, but both Jews & Muslims have only & always believed & taught in a single diety not a trinitarian diety.

The nature of The Trinity wasn’t fully revealed until the coming of Our Lord, although there are several hints, one of which I offered above. Here are some more:

**Genesis 3:22 **—
Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad!

Genesis 11:7—
Let us then go down and there confuse their language, so that one will not understand what another says."

Isaiah 6:8 —
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?" “Here I am,” I said; “send me!”
There are several more instances in the Old Testament referring to God in the plural. The ancient Jews must have wondered why the divinely inspired authors of the Bible spoke of God in this way.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The 'Royal We" is used by God in the Bible & by Allah in the Koran, but both Jews & Muslims have only & always believed & taught in a single diety not a trinitarian diety.

There is only a single deity which at the end of a very long conversation we call God. Trinity doesn’t distract from One Nature, it explains through revelation to understand the One nature. And as you see in a very human analogical method related to human understanding which varies with mileage depending on person to person and their ability to think abstract in relation to Gods nature and human nature.