? for believers in the Trinity as God

[dzheremi]

The 'Royal We" is used by God in the Bible & by Allah in the Koran, but both Jews & Muslims have only & always believed & taught in a single diety not a trinitarian diety.

While I agree that arguing from the use of pronouns is not a very good idea, you might want to re-think this idea that Muslims have only and always believed and taught a single deity (I don’t know about Jews). In addition to the satanic verses controversy (not the book by Salman Rushdie, but this controversial incident that appears in some hadith collections), there is also the fact that it is apparently mainstream Sunni belief that the Qur’an, as “divine speech”, is uncreated and eternal. Of course, in Christianity, those attributes belong only to God, and yet somehow we are the “associators” and the Muslims are the pure monotheists, despite their at least quasi-divine book. Go figure. It’s a very strange sort of monotheism, from a Christian perspective.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

There is only a single deity which at the end of a very long conversation we call God. Trinity doesn’t distract from One Nature, it explains through revelation to understand the One nature. And as you see in a very human analogical method related to human understanding which varies with mileage depending on person to person and their ability to think abstract in relation to Gods nature and human nature.

As Christians, we don’t believe in One God (period).

We believe in One God…(plus)…made up of Three Distinct Persons aka the Holy Trinity.

We can’t just say ‘One God’ and leave it at that or else other monotheists will think we believe in a single entity as God as they do, but we don’t.

We always add to ‘One God’ otherwise people will misunderstand us to literally mean One God (period) as the Jews & Muslims believe.

What we, Christians, believe about God is completely unique and different than what Jews & Muslims believe.

Just like there is only one humanity yet made up of billions of unique individual persons; we believe God is One yet made up of 3 Unique Individual Persons.

Our belief is weird and I don’t understand why the Old Testament did not teach this about God since God is unchanging; however, I do believe it.

Of course, since Trinity was never taught before & would have been condemned (& was by those Faithful to the OT Faith when it was revealed), yet it was true, I do wonder what is currently not being taught yet we’ll find out later is true that we would condemn now?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

As Christians, we don’t believe in One God (period).

“We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

My point exactly

Our Creed does end after “One God”, our Creed has to continue to clarify what we mean by “One God” since we don’t mean One God )period).

“We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

My point exactly

Our Creed does end after “One God”, our Creed has to continue to clarify what we mean by “One God” since we don’t mean One God )period).

No matter how you want to slice it…

It is one God.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 15:26 But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning.

All in One and One in All.

ONE GOD!

 

[PJM]

=ComeHome2Rome;10564349]Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament & Jesus, although did say He & the Father were One & He is I AM, didn’t clearly reveal God as Trinity either and that the clear definition of Trinity wasn’t revealed in the Bible at all, but only became clear a few hundred years after Jesus’ Resurrection?

I believe in the Trinity, but every now & again I wonder.

No

Because actually he did:thumbsup:

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

Mt. 3: 13-17
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

And Jesus [GOD THE SON] being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove,[GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [GOD THE FATHER]

Mt. 28:18-20
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

And if you find this insufficient

“Jesus” is mentioned 932 times

“The Father” 237 times

and 'The Holy Spirit" 91 times

In the New testament.

 

[GaryTaylor]

As Christians, we don’t believe in One God (period)…

I think we do, and struggle to understand as we would like to understand.

We believe in One God…(plus)…made up of Three Distinct Persons aka the Holy Trinity.

One Nature/Essence, three divine persons or hypostases. A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is.

We can’t just say ‘One God’ and leave it at that or else other monotheists will think we believe in a single entity as God as they do, but we don’t.

But we do say One God, What they believe I have no idea. If its not what we believe I resort to prayer and attempt conversation where possible.

We always add to ‘One God’ otherwise people will misunderstand us to literally mean One God (period) as the Jews & Muslims believe.

I’ll give you this one, and we can both imagine what it would sound like to somebody who never heard anything such as. This though is an age old question and from the OT in regards to the HS.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Baptism-Transfiguration
Matthew 3- And behold a voice from Heaven that said, “This is my Son, The Beloved, in whom I am delighted.

Luke 3 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 9 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Mark 9- Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

Psalm 2 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.

Matthew 12 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations

John 5 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

John 5 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 12 Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

Mark 1- And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

What we, Christians, believe about God is completely unique and different than what Jews & Muslims believe.

Somewhat, that’s one of those varies with mileage.

Just like there is only one humanity yet made up of billions of unique individual persons; we believe God is One yet made up of 3 Unique Individual Persons.

And I believe its self-evident. Jesus Christ coming to judge the living and dead. And if you add the presence of the HS through St Mary, it certainly ventures into awe if you hadn’t already reached awe.

Our belief is weird and I don’t understand why the Old Testament did not teach this about God since God is unchanging; however, I do believe it.

I hear you, mystery unlocked through prayer and confirmed. Very Biblical and Apostolic.

Of course, since Trinity was never taught before & would have been condemned (& was by those Faithful to the OT Faith when it was revealed), yet it was true, I do wonder what is currently not being taught yet we’ll find out later is true that we would condemn now?

I wonder if Pilot asked himself that or the Romans for the first 300 years.

Does make for an interesting conversation with something to think about though.

 

[Bix]

Do you ever get even a little tiny bit bothered by the fact that God did not ever reveal Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament & Jesus, although did say He & the Father were One & He is I AM, didn’t clearly reveal God as Trinity either and that the clear definition of Trinity wasn’t revealed in the Bible at all, but only became clear a few hundred years after Jesus’ Resurrection?

I believe in the Trinity, but every now & again I wonder.

How is it okay that for thousands of years God’s chosen had only been taught that God is ONE. And that the first Christians didn’t know about God being Trinity as we now know?

How have those of you who have ever been bothered by this come to reconcile this?

Please forgive any typos and my format. I actually typed this out while referencing the Bible rather than copy and pasting, sorry…

**(Luke 3:22)

“And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”

(Luke 4:1) “And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned to Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.”

(Luke4:14) “And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.”

(Luke 4:18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised."

(Luke 4:21) And he began to say unto them, This day is the scripture fulfilled in your ears."

(1 Corinthians 12:13) " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles whether we be bond or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. "

(Acts 5:3) “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?”

(Acts 5:5) And Ananias as hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost; and great fear came on all them that heard these things."

(Acts 8:15-17) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 - (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them; only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17- Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

(Romans 9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscious also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,"

(1 Peter 1:12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which tongs the angels desire to look into into,"

**

 

[concretecamper]

I have read on this post lots of biblical passages that supports the existence of the 3 person that make up the Trinity. But you cannot find the DOCTRINE of the Trinity in the bible. So why do protestants believe in the trinity? I am not trying to start an argument …I truly would like to know.

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[JonNC]

I have read on this post lots of biblical passages that supports the existence of the 3 person that make up the Trinity. But you cannot find the DOCTRINE of the Trinity in the bible. So why do protestants believe in the trinity? I am not trying to start an argument …I truly would like to know.

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I can’t speak for protestants, but Lutherans accept all seven of the Great Councils of the early Church, so it isn’t surprising that we accept the doctrines set down in them.

The conclusion of the Augsburg Confession states, in part: Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

I think it’s quite natural to not be able to grasp the Trinity - for me, this is a good sign! That I can’t fully understand makes me glad!

Perhaps the Athansian Creed is good to remember:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

 

[concretecamper]

JonNC:

Quote:

I can’t speak for protestants, but Lutherans accept all seven of the Great Councils of the early Church, so it isn’t surprising that we accept the doctrines set down in them.

The conclusion of the Augsburg Confession states, in part: Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic.

Jon

Thanks Jon. I wonder about the evangelical denominations???

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[Bix]

I have read on this post lots of biblical passages that supports the existence of the 3 person that make up the Trinity. But you cannot find the DOCTRINE of the Trinity in the bible. So why do protestants believe in the trinity? I am not trying to start an argument …I truly would like to know.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

IMHO~

1. due to the references in the Bible
2. My simple thought is because they originally broke off from the Catholic Church and kept many doctrines.

God Bless~

 

[YiiNaa]

A lot of Christians on this site do not understand why God is plural in the OT. It is a plural of majesty.

Jesus was a first century jew, who proclaimed the schema, the trinity is a later doctrine that is not taught in the bible. Messianic Jews do not believe in the Trinity

 

[PJM]

=YiiNaa;10599304]A lot of Christians on this site do not understand why God is plural in the OT. It is a plural of majesty.

Jesus was a first century jew, who proclaimed the schema, the trinity is a later doctrine that is not taught in the bible. Messianic Jews do not believe in the Trinity

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

2 Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.

The purality of God in the OT is but hints of the Trinity. Of and Like God because it IS God, who always was, is and always shall be One.

 

[JonNC]

A lot of Christians on this site do not understand why God is plural in the OT. It is a plural of majesty.

Jesus was a first century jew, who proclaimed the schema, the trinity is a later doctrine that is not taught in the bible. Messianic Jews do not believe in the Trinity

a lot of Christians on this site understand the teaching of scripture, Christ’s own words, and the teachings of the Church since its beginning that God is a triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, in whose name (singular) we are instructed to baptize.

Jon

 

[Seeker]

A lot of Christians on this site do not understand why God is plural in the OT. It is a plural of majesty.

** why would the Almighty GOD use a plural of majesty in OT??, why couldn’t he just say “I”, that would have avoided all sorts of confusion**

Jesus was a first century jew, who proclaimed the schema, the trinity is a later doctrine that is not taught in the bible. Messianic Jews do not believe in the Trinity

** as i stated in your thread on the “Trinity”, you are messianic jew and not an Anglican/Unitarian, i am correct>?? **