For Better or for Worse

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In this forum I have read threads of marriages being troubled. There are many problems that can arise in a marriage. Almost every thread that I’ve read about a troubled marriage, someone, in fact multiple people tell the person to leave. In several threads the person has talked to their priest and the priest tells them to leave. When I say leave I mean separate and divorce. What ever happened for better or for worse? Catholics telling Catholics to leave their spouse? This almost never happened in my parents generation. Does my generation have more problems than my parents? I agree in some extreme cases, separation, divorce and anullment is necessary. I’d like your comments.
 
I think there is greater awareness of and preparedness to discuss issues that warrant separation, compared to previous generations. This is most notable with regard to the treatment of women in marriage. Domestic violence and other forms of abuse should never be tolerated and it is right to advise women (or men) to leave situations that are dangerous. In the past, such violence and abuse was ignored, if not outright accepted.

Whenever statistics are published regarding the percentage of women who are sexually or physically abused I am astonished. And deeply saddened.

Also alarming is the link between domestic violence and child abuse, so when children are involved the advice to separate may be even more appropriate!
 
I think there is greater awareness of and preparedness to discuss issues that warrant separation, compared to previous generations. This is most notable with regard to the treatment of women in marriage. Domestic violence and other forms of abuse should never be tolerated and it is right to advise women (or men) to leave situations that are dangerous. In the past, such violence and abuse was ignored, if not outright accepted.

Whenever statistics are published regarding the percentage of women who are sexually or physically abused I am astonished. And deeply saddened.

Also alarming is the link between domestic violence and child abuse, so when children are involved the advice to separate may be even more appropriate!
I agree. In the the cases you mentioned separation is acceptable. If all the threads I read where because of dangerous situations, I wouldn’t be asking these questions. People are told to leave because of big problems. For example alcoholism. The last thread I read the persons spouse started to drink heavily. The person never mentioned abuse and it was a long thread. They were told to leave buy there priest. I can’t say I agree there. My father drank heavily. My mother or I were never in any danger. She never left and eventually after 40 years of heavy drinking he quit.
 
I agree. In the the cases you mentioned separation is acceptable. If all the threads I read where because of dangerous situations, I wouldn’t be asking these questions. People are told to leave because of big problems. For example alcoholism. The last thread I read the persons spouse started to drink heavily. The person never mentioned abuse and it was a long thread. They were told to leave buy there priest. I can’t say I agree there. My father drank heavily. My mother or I were never in any danger. She never left and eventually after 40 years of heavy drinking he quit.
Each situation is different. Some spouses can stay in a situation in which the other spouse is drinking and not be adversely affected spiritually and mentally. Most, however, cannot, and to live with alcoholism is to live with abuse even if it isn’t physical.

Living with alcoholism means you have to see the person you love become an entirely different person every time they drink. It means that that person will ignore what is best for the family in pursuit of the next buzz. It means that the wishes, hopes and prayers of the other person in the relationship are totally disregarded on a daily basis.

I have a family member (not a spouse) with a serious substance abuse problem. This person would get so drunk every. single. night. that she could not remember the names of her family members, couldn’t walk up the stairs, sometimes couldn’t walk at all. This person would expect minor children to commit felonies by going out and purchasing controlled substances for her, lest they incur her wrath. This same person refused to live up to her responsibilities in her family role at ALL, and was verbally and emotionally abusive of anyone who suggested that she stop with the substance abuse.

Perhaps you can live in such a situation. Most of us cannot. It is heartbreaking, terrifying, and horrifically lonely because you cannot ever count on the other spouse to be an adult, much less a husband or wife. And if there are children in the home and the children perceive substance abuse to be “normal” behavior, statistics show that such children are likely to repeat either or both the substance abuse or the toleration of bad behavior in their own lives, perpetuating these horrors into future generations. The responsible spouse has a duty to ensure to the best of his or her ability that children grow up in a safe and calm environment where they can learn about normal relationships, expectations, family dynamics, and boundaries.

There are two factors at work in your initial question. First, many people, especially women, in previous generations were told to never divorce no matter what, including, as others have pointed out, in cases of gross physical abuse. Second, there was a heavier emphasis on what other people might think–i.e., “Yes, he’s an alcoholic who drinks to the point of passing out every evening, but what will the neighbors say if I tell him to sober up or leave?” Many such problems were not talked about at all.

Another important point to remember is that while there were serious problems which affected the previous generations as they have every generation, these problems are grossly exacerbated now and far more widespread because of a lack of self-control and personal responsibility in our society. Our kids have been told for the last thirty years that they have to think of themselves first, and that if something feels good to them, they should do it and disregard the consequences to everyone else. It’s hardly surprising that affairs and substance abuse are at an all-time high.

One last point: in previous generations, certain diseases either didn’t exist or weren’t nearly so common. If a man had an affair (and I say man, but of course women had affairs too) he could be reasonably certain that unless he was with a prostitute or a woman who slept around a LOT, he wouldn’t bring home a VD to his wife. Syphilis and gonorrhea and, I think, chlamydia did exist, but they weren’t very common. Genital warts were fairly rare. I’m not sure about HPV, but HIV didn’t exist. Now, if a spouse has reasonable suspicion that the other spouse is sleeping around or engaging in certain types of drug use, they have a responsibility to themselves to at a bare minimum not sleep with the other spouse again until the erring spouse is tested and has repented. No one can reasonably expect an innocent spouse to risk contracting HIV, much less the myriad of other, less deadly diseases. Throw in the fact that a lot more spouses ARE sleeping around, and you have yet another layer to this problem. Finally, if the erring spouse is bringing drugs into the home, the home can be seized and auctioned by the police as part of a drug raid. The innocent spouse has every right to protect family assets by separating from a spouse who is bringing that kind of thing into the home.

Is this an ideal situation? Certainly not. Ignoring it, however, will not make it go away.
 
I agree. In the the cases you mentioned separation is acceptable. If all the threads I read where because of dangerous situations, I wouldn’t be asking these questions. People are told to leave because of big problems. For example alcoholism. The last thread I read the persons spouse started to drink heavily. The person never mentioned abuse and it was a long thread. They were told to leave buy there priest. I can’t say I agree there. My father drank heavily. My mother or I were never in any danger. She never left and eventually after 40 years of heavy drinking he quit.
I do not know how your family dealt with the situation on a practical level, and I’m sorry all of you had to deal with the alcoholism.

But my take on the subject is that in many cases today, there are more legal ramifications that can effect the innocent spouse as well as better awareness of all the other effects that happen from being in a difficult relationship.

For example, if there are illegal drugs in the house, the house can be seized and/or any children the couple have can be removed from the home and placed in foster care. If one spouse gets drunk, drives and injures someone, not only does the family have to deal with the criminal courts, but can be sued and all the families assets are at risk of a civil judgement. A spouse who’s mental illness causes them to be verbally abusive can be damaging to the other spouse and/or the children much like someone who is physically abusive.

In every case, the person involved has to make (with the presumed guidance of someone who knows much more than what is posted on the internet) the decision to leave based on what is at risk. And especially if there are children involved, that risk can be huge - therefore I think many people respond in a better safe (leave) than sorry (tell the person to stay and something very bad happens).

And most people reply to posts based on their own experiences and point of view - if you’ve been in or seen the fall out from a marriage with an alcoholic that went badly, you’re much more inclined to tell someone else who posts in anything resembling the same circumstances to get out. You, on the other hand, had an experience that apparently did not have unacceptable consequences, so you’re more inclined to see the reasons that person posting should stay.

I tend to not post replies to either stay together or to leave, because I know there never is a truly “good” answer that will magically fix everything. 🤷

Ending the legal marriage to protect oneself physically, mentally, emotionally or financially - particularly if their are children involved, is simply the right thing to do. The spiritual marriage I leave up to the wisdom of the church.
 
Nothing ever came of the post which said “I have a great marriage! We don’t really fight, communicate well, and enjoy each other’s company.”

So, most posts you see on marriage will be involving problems. It’s a good thing Catholics recognize separation is sometimes necessary- abuse is not appropriate to “live out” as a for-worse situation.
 
In this forum I have read threads of marriages being troubled. There are many problems that can arise in a marriage. Almost every thread that I’ve read about a troubled marriage, someone, in fact multiple people tell the person to leave. In several threads the person has talked to their priest and the priest tells them to leave. When I say leave I mean separate and divorce. What ever happened for better or for worse? Catholics telling Catholics to leave their spouse? This almost never happened in my parents generation. Does my generation have more problems than my parents? I agree in some extreme cases, separation, divorce and anullment is necessary. I’d like your comments.
I’ve noticed the same thing, not just on here but in real life was well. To be clear, I’m not talking about when people suggest divorce in severe cases like abuse and whatnot, but when people are telling someone to leave their spouse over things that I’d consider everyday or unexceptional problems. So what if you found out that your wife slept with more people than she admitted to before you were married? It’s in the past and certainly not something to leave her over. You’re fighting more than normal and your spouse is a wreck? Why on earth would you instantly suggest divorce as opposed to finding out what’s upsetting your spouse so much? Those are just a couple things I’ve seen with other people. My wife and I have been going through absolute hell for the past year (far worse than the horrible stuff that had been going on for the 3-4 years prior to that). We’ve both been at our breaking point several times and the stress levels have been far beyond anything I could have imagined previously. We’ve had some huge, hurtful fights and the way my wife has responded to some of what has happened has confounded and upset others. I had someone tell me, “I don’t know how you can put up with that.” They wouldn’t come right out and say it, but they suggested that I’d be better off if our marital circumstances should change. I let them know how disgusted I was with what they said and made sure they knew that there’s no way I’d ever consider a divorce. For one thing, she’s my wife. For another, we’re Catholic. We’re one in God’s eyes and we swore to accept and stick by each other through the good and bad. I also knew most of the baggage my wife was bringing with her into our marriage and how that impacts how she reacts to a lot of what we’re going through now. How disgusting and awful a person would I be if I abandoned her for that? No matter what happened to her in the past, I still love her and can’t imagine living without her. Knowing what we’ve been through and what we’re dealing with now, I look at what broke up the marriages of our divorced friends and can’t comprehend how someone could leave their spouse over something so trivial. I also can’t fathom how a fellow Catholic could ever suggest divorce. No matter how terrible these things are that we’re dealing with, they’ll pass eventually. I want my wife to be there with me once we get through this. I can’t imagine leaving her during the bad times knowing that the good times will return sooner or later.
 
If you’ve read my thread you’ve seen that I do not want to get divorced. I never thought I’d ever be in this position. My wife exchanged over 5000 text messages and over 5000 minutes of phone calls with her “friend”. I stuck it out. I forgave her. I got us into counseling. We went to Retrouvaille. However, she did not participate. In a no fault state like California people can get divorced for any reason that they want. My spouse has left her family and the church and I really cannot do anything about it. I can’t contest the divorce. I thought our situation was a “better or worse, in sickness and in health” scenario that we could get through, but it takes two to tango. I eventually had to leave because I was being used to pay the bills and I just could not look myself in the mirror and do it any longer. I gave fair notice that if an attempt at some sort of reconciliation was not made, I would stop paying the bills and move out. What I have learned is that adultery is a sickness. Its like my wife was addicted to drugs. She did not, and would not stop. I talked to her. Our adult children talked to her. Friends and family talked to her, but it just didn’t do any good. Now that the divorce process has begun, she might realize just how much she is going to lose. Its a shame. It really is a shame.
 
In this forum I have read threads of marriages being troubled. There are many problems that can arise in a marriage. Almost every thread that I’ve read about a troubled marriage, someone, in fact multiple people tell the person to leave. In several threads the person has talked to their priest and the priest tells them to leave. When I say leave I mean separate and divorce. What ever happened for better or for worse? Catholics telling Catholics to leave their spouse? This almost never happened in my parents generation. Does my generation have more problems than my parents? I agree in some extreme cases, separation, divorce and anullment is necessary. I’d like your comments.
I’m with you. I would only suggest giving up on your spouse if there is abuse or repeated infidelity and only when seeking help didn’t work.

Otherwise you should continue to fight for the one you made a promise to.
 
The phrases in the marriage vows—“for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health,” refer to the circumstances of life. Circumstances which can arise in every life and are not foreseeable.

The vows themselves are a commitment, one to the other, of fidelity and permanence, no matter what the future may hold in the way of circumstances. What is taken for granted is that each spouse is promising to remain faithful in love to the other, throughout life, no matter what.

The “for better or for worse,” does not, I think, mean that a spouse has the freedom to violate those very vows with impunity, for the vows must be made with good will and firm commitment by both parties. If one party or both, did not really mean them to begin with, then what good are they?

The key is to be a good judge of character before marriage!
 
I have wondered the same thing as the OP when reading here. I don’t see how in many cases people really believe that marriage is for life, good or bad, come what may.

I’ve had a very very hard marriage for about 10 years. Many here would have advised me to leave. I didn’t (by the grace of God, not my own strength, that is for sure). My husband has returned to the faith and overcome his addiction.

I do not mean to judge anyone here. I do wonder at times though why we don’t encourage people to get help and to stick it out. God can and does heal horrible marriages and a commitment is a commitment (not saying you should stay and be beaten but usually that is not the case).

Just IMHO.
 
I have wondered the same thing as the OP when reading here. I don’t see how in many cases people really believe that marriage is for life, good or bad, come what may.

I’ve had a very very hard marriage for about 10 years. Many here would have advised me to leave. I didn’t (by the grace of God, not my own strength, that is for sure). My husband has returned to the faith and overcome his addiction.

I do not mean to judge anyone here. I do wonder at times though why we don’t encourage people to get help and to stick it out. God can and does heal horrible marriages and a commitment is a commitment (not saying you should stay and be beaten but usually that is not the case).

Just IMHO.
👍
 
Always keep the following in mind:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/domestic-violence/when-i-call-for-help.cfm

A quote from the link:
An abused woman may see her suffering as just punishment for a past deed for which she feels guilty.** She may try to explain suffering by saying that it is “God’s will” or “part of God’s plan for my life” or “God’s way of teaching me a lesson.” This image of a harsh, cruel God runs contrary to the biblical image of a kind, merciful, and loving God. Jesus went out of his way to help suffering women.** Think of the woman with the hemorrhage (Mk 5:25-34) or the woman caught in adultery (Jn 8:1-11). God promises to be present to us in our suffering, even when it is unjust.
 
In a no fault state like California people can get divorced for any reason that they want. My spouse has left her family and the church and I really cannot do anything about it. I can’t contest the divorce.
Been there and done that.

There are some who hold that No-Fault divorce is Unconstitutional. Two women in Florida and Ohio tried to sue on such grounds because their religious liberty was being violated.

The Florida woman was almost held in contempt in Family Court except for the appeals court overriding the family court judge. Even then, the family court judge wanted to hold that family law superseded the appellate Court’s jurisdiction because the two types of law are “apples and oranges”.

The Ohio woman tried to get the Catholic church to get involved in the suit, in order to get it before the US Supreme Court. The Catholic Church refused to do so.

With Today’s Court, even the most Conservative Judges would rule against a suit because the Common Law upon which the Constitution is based, allowed for a unilateral divorce with no recourse for the unwilling party. Scalia and Thomas would gleefully cite such history and say “take it up with your State legislature”.

Even Covenant Marriage in the 3 States that allow it has been an abject failure. All one spouse has to do is move to another State, and presto, new State rules apply.

Federalism has its drawbacks from a religious perspective I am afraid.
 
In this forum I have read threads of marriages being troubled. There are many problems that can arise in a marriage. Almost every thread that I’ve read about a troubled marriage, someone, in fact multiple people tell the person to leave. In several threads the person has talked to their priest and the priest tells them to leave. When I say leave I mean separate and divorce. What ever happened for better or for worse? Catholics telling Catholics to leave their spouse? This almost never happened in my parents generation. Does my generation have more problems than my parents? I agree in some extreme cases, separation, divorce and anullment is necessary. I’d like your comments.
I couldn’t agree more. Love is fundamentally supposed to be unconditional. If it’s conditional, it’s not love. And if it’s not love it comes from somewhere other than God. Our society is truly sick, love is a DECISION! You chose to love even when you don’t FEEL it. We don’t always FEEL love, even for our kids sometimes, but good parents would ALWAYS take a bullet for their kids.

I’ve always thought that St. John of the Cross’ “dark night of the soul” happens to marriages as well as individuals. If we become one flesh in marriage (and as Catholics, we know that is the case), then the same spiritual journey a person makes is experienced by the married flesh. That is my opinion. And if God desires a “dark night of the soul” for the individual (whereby he removes all feelings of comfort so that we learn to trust what is real, Him, rather than feelings, which can be deceptive) then He must intend for the married flesh to experience a similar deprivation of the senses, so that it too can learn to count on what is real and not be build itself upon the sand of feelings! In our culture we call it “the seven year itch.” But in my opinion, it’s “the dark night of the married soul.” Telling folks to just leave, to abandon one’s covenant is a horrible injustice! If one is married, one has a responsibility to fight for his or her marriage.

We’ve become hedonists in our society, and that’s what you are seeing, Gabanzo, with such “Catholics” who would counsel such filth. I’ve read your story. Your fidelity is inspiring. Four years of faithfulness to a wife who left you but is still your wife. You are an inspiration. The marital vocation is not easy, but we don’t just give up. It is the idea that we CAN just give up that has fostered such sickness within our people. We have become idolaters of pleasure, and once the pleasure is gone, we move on to another victim.

We should spread the Gospel message of love as far and wide as possible. We need to teach our children the unconditional nature of love, and to honor their commitments, particularly the most precious covenant of matrimony that reflects the love of the Trinity itself. Remember that in the life of the Trinity, there were most definitely bad times. The Father gave his Son to die. Imagine if the Son had said, “No way, I’m done. This isn’t what I envisioned for myself.”

I will move Heaven and Earth to make sure my precious boys receive my understanding of love and that they apply that as a litmus test for any woman they will ever consider marrying. God save them from this heartbreak. It is excruciating. And all these folks who tell you to stop praying for your wife to come back and just give up–they are enablers, and ought to be ashamed of themselves.
 
I couldn’t agree more. Love is fundamentally supposed to be unconditional. If it’s conditional, it’s not love. And if it’s not love it comes from somewhere other than God. Our society is truly sick, love is a DECISION! You chose to love even when you don’t FEEL it. We don’t always FEEL love, even for our kids sometimes, but good parents would ALWAYS take a bullet for their kids.

I’ve always thought that St. John of the Cross’ “dark night of the soul” happens to marriages as well as individuals. If we become one flesh in marriage (and as Catholics, we know that is the case), then the same spiritual journey a person makes is experienced by the married flesh. That is my opinion. And if God desires a “dark night of the soul” for the individual (whereby he removes all feelings of comfort so that we learn to trust what is real, Him, rather than feelings, which can be deceptive) then He must intend for the married flesh to experience a similar deprivation of the senses, so that it too can learn to count on what is real and not be build itself upon the sand of feelings! In our culture we call it “the seven year itch.” But in my opinion, it’s “the dark night of the married soul.” Telling folks to just leave, to abandon one’s covenant is a horrible injustice! If one is married, one has a responsibility to fight for his or her marriage.

We’ve become hedonists in our society, and that’s what you are seeing, Gabanzo, with such “Catholics” who would counsel such filth. I’ve read your story. Your fidelity is inspiring. Four years of faithfulness to a wife who left you but is still your wife. You are an inspiration. The marital vocation is not easy, but we don’t just give up. It is the idea that we CAN just give up that has fostered such sickness within our people. We have become idolaters of pleasure, and once the pleasure is gone, we move on to another victim.

We should spread the Gospel message of love as far and wide as possible. We need to teach our children the unconditional nature of love, and to honor their commitments, particularly the most precious covenant of matrimony that reflects the love of the Trinity itself. Remember that in the life of the Trinity, there were most definitely bad times. The Father gave his Son to die. Imagine if the Son had said, “No way, I’m done. This isn’t what I envisioned for myself.”

I will move Heaven and Earth to make sure my precious boys receive my understanding of love and that they apply that as a litmus test for any woman they will ever consider marrying. God save them from this heartbreak. It is excruciating. And all these folks who tell you to stop praying for your wife to come back and just give up–they are enablers, and ought to be ashamed of themselves.
I do want to add that I did not see that “filth” on this thread, but have seen it on others.
 
In this forum I have read threads of marriages being troubled. There are many problems that can arise in a marriage. Almost every thread that I’ve read about a troubled marriage, someone, in fact multiple people tell the person to leave. In several threads the person has talked to their priest and the priest tells them to leave. When I say leave I mean separate and divorce. What ever happened for better or for worse? Catholics telling Catholics to leave their spouse? This almost never happened in my parents generation. Does my generation have more problems than my parents? I agree in some extreme cases, separation, divorce and anullment is necessary. I’d like your comments.
For better or worse generally doesn’t mean abusive situations and infidelity. It two to make any marriage work. Not one. But two. No one deserves to be, or should tolerate, abuse. That would be verbal, emotional, physical or sexual. Your generation doesn’t have to put up with it as much as people had to when your parents were growing up. People are getting married later, and are successful on their own. This is especially true of women, who might have been suck in bad marriages in your parents’ time. Not so anymore. There is also less of a stigma attached to being divorced. And there are more resources available and easier to find than they used to be.
 
I’ve noticed the same thing, not just on here but in real life was well. To be clear, I’m not talking about when people suggest divorce in severe cases like abuse and whatnot, but when people are telling someone to leave their spouse over things that I’d consider everyday or unexceptional problems. So what if you found out that your wife slept with more people than she admitted to before you were married? It’s in the past and certainly not something to leave her over.
Actually, that’s grounds for an annulment because the other spouse (who was lied to, and didn’t know about the partners her/his spouse was with) was not able to give full consent. If you lie about things, because you know it will affect whether or not the other person will go through with the marriage, then that warrants an annulment.
You’re fighting more than normal and your spouse is a wreck? Why on earth would you instantly suggest divorce as opposed to finding out what’s upsetting your spouse so much? Those are just a couple things I’ve seen with other people. My wife and I have been going through absolute hell for the past year .
I’m sorry that you’re going through a rough time with your marriage, but not everyone has the same problems and situations. It’s not possible to judge whether or not another person is warranted in seeking a divorce when their home has turned into a battlefield.
 
I don’t think that every troubled marriage thread ends up with people advising divorce. I had my own troubled marriage thread last year and nobody suggested this. I got a lot of emotional support, people prayed for me, I got some good advice on what to do. It was all very positive, ie geared towards what can be done, rather then negative: divorce as an option.

We recently had a thread where not a single person advised the OP to divorce, but all offered suggestions on what could be done and tried to get the OP to see the situation in a different light. I thought that showed serious respect for the sacrament of marriage by our posters.

But then, when a person claims they are abused by their spouse I don’t think it is moral to advise that person to stay and suffer. My father mentally and emotionally abused my mother and us children and I know what kind of damage that does. I’m not sure that such arrangements are marriages to start with. I guess this poses a question of where the boundaries of ‘worse’ are. I don’t know. I guess we all have a limit of what we can take. I put up with a lot during my own marriage crisis, but I would not put up with continual abuse from my husband.
 
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