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Veritatis3
Guest
- How do you decide which teachings of the Church you will follow?
- If the Church can error on one teaching, what makes you think she isn’t wrong on a whole host of other teachings as well?
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Saintlucy
Guest
The Church cannot error in matters of faith and morals. Her members, who are the Body of Christ, cannot pick and choose what they want to believe and remain in union with her.
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Veritatis3
Guest
Amen to that. Since coming to this website less than a year ago, I have read the comments of many Catholics who state, “I dont believe that” or “the Church is wrong.” Many times this statement comes from Catholics who refuse to accept the teachings of the Church regarding contraception.
If you profess to be Catholic you profess to believe everything the Church has taught and currently teaches. If you don’t believe everything, you aren’t Catholic.
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MaryandJoseph
Guest
I believe in and have faith in all that Holy Mother Church teaches because my beloved Catholic Church is under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
But its so frustrating for me to talk about my Catholic faith with Catholics
I was discussing altar railing and receiving Holy Communion on the tongue and my love of Latin prayers and I was accused of being pre-Vatican 2 ( it was said with obvious venom)
I swam the Tiber in 2004 so I have no clue how things “used to be”.
Cafeteria Catholics are bad enough in the pews, but what/how does one respond when the cafeteria Catholics are the priests and bishops and deacons? Many in my diocese and yep, I pray for them.
But its so frustrating for me to talk about my Catholic faith with Catholics
I was discussing altar railing and receiving Holy Communion on the tongue and my love of Latin prayers and I was accused of being pre-Vatican 2 ( it was said with obvious venom) I swam the Tiber in 2004 so I have no clue how things “used to be”.Cafeteria Catholics are bad enough in the pews, but what/how does one respond when the cafeteria Catholics are the priests and bishops and deacons? Many in my diocese and yep, I pray for them.
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Veritatis3
Guest
I know your frustration. Thanks be to God, my pastor is an orthodox priest.I believe in and have faith in all that Holy Mother Church teaches because my beloved Catholic Church is under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
But its so frustrating for me to talk about my Catholic faith with Catholics
Cafeteria Catholics are bad enough in the pews, but what/how does one respond when the cafeteria Catholics are the priests and bishops and deacons? Many in my diocese and yep, I pray for them.
After careful discernment and much prayer, my family has started accepting the Most Blessed Sacrament on our knees and on the tongue. Most are receptive and a few have followed.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
Yes, as long as it IS what the Church teaches, and not what some posters on a forum THINK the Church teaches. There have been some doozies posted.
Labeling people “cafeteria Catholics” is a bad idea. Some people truly do not understand Church teaching, some have had very poor catechesis, and some have actually been advised by those in authority whom they know and trust. The actual culpability is really unknown to us. Plus, you have to make sure you aren’t in that group. Every time we sin, we choose to ignore Church teaching.
Labeling anybody anything is actually a bad idea in general. Praying for them is a better idea.
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gelsbern
Guest
In the past I have asked for a definitive list of what one MUST believe as a Catholic. So for me, unless it’s spelled out specifically somewhere, that is how I choose. I’ve seen a lot of people attempt to list the required beliefs but they always end up throwing one or two things in there that are not required. These are the same people calling other people cafeteria Catholics.
The church cannot error in faith and morals, however humans can, even the Pope unless he invokes the very specific circumstances which grant his statements infallible.
The problem is that Catholics make claims that such and such must be believed even though it is simply not the case.
I’ll give one example. The Assumption of Mary. There are a lot of Catholics who believe she was taken up into heaven before she died, however there are others who believe she died first, and simply was the first one to experience what we all will experience when Christ returns.
According to the teachings of the Church, a Catholic is free to believe either way and based upon my own personal studies, I believe the latter. But you would be surprised how terrible I have been treated in the past for my belief even though there has never been a definitive statement from the Church.
I feel that a lot of people are misclassified as “cafeteria Catholics”. And I think that those who consider themselves a “cafeteria Catholic” and lay the label on to other people are just as much a cafeteria Catholic as the people they accuse unless they have studied every detail of the Catholic faith and follow it to the letter.
Personally I hate labels of any kind. A person who tries to be as Catholic as they can based on how they were taught isn’t any less of a Catholic than someone who was fortunate enough to have a better catechism.
The very first Spiritual Work of Mercy is to to instruct the instruct the ignorant, not shun and reject them.
newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary#Catholic_teaching
newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm
The church cannot error in faith and morals, however humans can, even the Pope unless he invokes the very specific circumstances which grant his statements infallible.
The problem is that Catholics make claims that such and such must be believed even though it is simply not the case.
I’ll give one example. The Assumption of Mary. There are a lot of Catholics who believe she was taken up into heaven before she died, however there are others who believe she died first, and simply was the first one to experience what we all will experience when Christ returns.
According to the teachings of the Church, a Catholic is free to believe either way and based upon my own personal studies, I believe the latter. But you would be surprised how terrible I have been treated in the past for my belief even though there has never been a definitive statement from the Church.
I feel that a lot of people are misclassified as “cafeteria Catholics”. And I think that those who consider themselves a “cafeteria Catholic” and lay the label on to other people are just as much a cafeteria Catholic as the people they accuse unless they have studied every detail of the Catholic faith and follow it to the letter.
Personally I hate labels of any kind. A person who tries to be as Catholic as they can based on how they were taught isn’t any less of a Catholic than someone who was fortunate enough to have a better catechism.
The very first Spiritual Work of Mercy is to to instruct the instruct the ignorant, not shun and reject them.
newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary#Catholic_teaching
newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm
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Irishgal49
Guest
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was on a Catholic “dating” site and they had you check whether or not you agreed with the Church on 7 key teachings, which stunned me because I’m Catholic I don’t say yes to 2or 3 and no to the rest, that’s just foreign thinking to me. I clicked on the match choice that I will NOT accept someone who is not in agreement with all 7 things on the choices.
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Dave_B
Guest
Hi Veritatis, I see you are getting answers from orthodox Catholics only. So if you dont mind, I will present a contrary view, although as you will note I’m not a Catholic
I do have a liberal view of faith matters.IMO the teachings of the church, like the holy scriptures, have evolved over time. The teachings DO contain truth, but it is not of the scientific or modern historical kind. This means IMO that church teaching is not “without error”, but like scripture is “inspired”.
If you look back over time at church teaching a lot of things change and positions change over time. Just one example of this is usury which was in the early church and middle ages forbidden as mortal sin, but the restrictions relaxed with the reformation.
Hope I havent upset you all too much… again! God bless
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TimothyH
Guest
Personally, I don’t worry about what other’s believe.
I try to remember that I am a beggar at the banquet, a dog not fit to eat the scraps off the master’s table. Am I getting to Mass on time? Am I reverent and prayerful at Mass in the face of talking, cell phones ringing and commotion? Am I receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in a state of Grace? How am I being faithful to the teaching of the Church? These are the things I am concerned with, not with what other’s believe.
Anyone who reads the Old Testament reads example after example of those who had seen God’s power with their own eyes go on to abandon God’s law and teaching. They had seen the Red Sea parted and yet they worshipped a golden calf. They had seen God stop the flow of the Jordan River, yet they didn’t trust God’s battle plans. God made them a temple and there he dwelt among men, yet the Israelites persisted in pagan worship.
I really wonder if people who complain about what other people believe really understand the stories in the Old Testament. Many times God used the disbelief and distrust of some to test others, to see if they would remain faithful and humble. And that just might be what God is doing now.
"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14)
Given Christ’s words, I would be very cautious about pointing out the faults of others and complaining about other people’s beliefs. I would instead be considerate of the fact that God just may be using their disbelif and lack of trust in the teaching of His Church to test my faith, and my ability to be humble.
-Tim-
I try to remember that I am a beggar at the banquet, a dog not fit to eat the scraps off the master’s table. Am I getting to Mass on time? Am I reverent and prayerful at Mass in the face of talking, cell phones ringing and commotion? Am I receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in a state of Grace? How am I being faithful to the teaching of the Church? These are the things I am concerned with, not with what other’s believe.
Anyone who reads the Old Testament reads example after example of those who had seen God’s power with their own eyes go on to abandon God’s law and teaching. They had seen the Red Sea parted and yet they worshipped a golden calf. They had seen God stop the flow of the Jordan River, yet they didn’t trust God’s battle plans. God made them a temple and there he dwelt among men, yet the Israelites persisted in pagan worship.
I really wonder if people who complain about what other people believe really understand the stories in the Old Testament. Many times God used the disbelief and distrust of some to test others, to see if they would remain faithful and humble. And that just might be what God is doing now.
"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14)
Given Christ’s words, I would be very cautious about pointing out the faults of others and complaining about other people’s beliefs. I would instead be considerate of the fact that God just may be using their disbelif and lack of trust in the teaching of His Church to test my faith, and my ability to be humble.
-Tim-
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Veritatis3
Guest
We are our brothers keeper. If our brother is in sin, we must help bring them into conformity with Church teaching. If they reject the Church, they reject Christ.
To allow our brothers and sisters to remain in sin without correction is wrong.
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Veritatis3
Guest
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TimothyH
Guest
Really? By complaining from three thousand miles away on a message board? By complaining that they don’t have the right to use the title “Catholic”? By pointing out the faults of others? Seriously?
And I’ll bet that nintey nine percent of the people on this message board wouldn’t have the guts to call out their best friend if he were doing something to jeapordize his salvation. I’ll bet that ninety nine percent of the people on this message board would never speak to that friend if he were to call them out for some sin they were engaged in.
These people are members of the Body of Christ in baptism along with us. It’s like breaking your left wrist and then yelling at it because it had the audacity to break. You don’t curse your wrist because it is broken, you nourish it, nurse it and even favor it. Ever think of inviting one of those cafeteria Catholics to play golf or over for a barbeque?
Oh, thank God i’m not like “Those” people! (wink, nod). You know, those “Caf-a-teeeer-ria” Catholics who don’t kneel and recieve in their tounges. And meanwhile Christ is asking a harlot with five husbands for a drink of water.
Bah. Take the logs out of your own eyes. The questions asked in the original post are execllent. But whoever said that we reject the teaching of the Church when we sin was absolutely correct. The degeneration into hipocrisy on some of these threads is disgusting.
-Tim-
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maryjk
Guest
Are you accusing priests, bishops and deacons of being cafeteria Catholics because they don’t demand using an altar rail, receiving on the tongue or using only prayers in Latin?I believe in and have faith in all that Holy Mother Church teaches because my beloved Catholic Church is under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
But its so frustrating for me to talk about my Catholic faith with Catholics
Cafeteria Catholics are bad enough in the pews, but what/how does one respond when the cafeteria Catholics are the priests and bishops and deacons? Many in my diocese and yep, I pray for them.
Or were your two paragraphs not related?
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maryjk
Guest
We need a like button.
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GeorgetownHoya
Guest
I find the term “Cafeteria Catholics” offensive and find the term used by the more closeminded Catholics to quell rightly deserved criticism of some questionable Church stances. This type of paranoia is one of the reasons why many people choose to leave the Catholic faith.
Just because one raises relevant questions about his/her faith does not make him/her a Heretic.
Just because one raises relevant questions about his/her faith does not make him/her a Heretic.
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karow
Guest
Thank you.
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karow
Guest
This is kind of like asking, “How do you decide to stop beating your kids?” There’s no right way to answer without making yourself look really bad or starting an argument.
If you do feel the call to be your brother’s keeper in matters of faith, the most charitable and effective way to help other sinners is through personal actions. Raise your kids in the Church, make a strong Catholic marriage with your spouse, be a shining example of what a decent, caring, Catholic follower of Christ can be.
Coming online and posting questions like this, you’re either going to provoke a flame war or you’re going to create a self-referencing, self-congratulatory coffee klatch. Either way, not much is going to be done to change the hearts and minds of the people you see who are erring in their ways.
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Heliotropium
Guest
A “Cafeteria Catholic” is not a Catholic that has questions about Church practices or teaching but a Catholic that does not follow or adhere to the doctrines of the Catholic Faith depite their questions. Maybe you would be less offended by the term if you didn’t take it out of context.
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Carlan
Guest
Friends, we are sinners and so very many of us lean on our own understanding, We pray for enlightenment for ourselves and for all…sinners. Amen. Carlan
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