For Catholics who support the death penalty

[Ender]

When has the Pope said he supports the death penalty?

At least a half dozen popes spoke out on this issue prior to JPII and all of them supported it and recognized the justness of capital punishment. That’s why Church doctrine recognizes the right of States to employ it.

Ender

 

[Love_God_Too]

N
That is why I stand with the Bishops in supporting an end to Capital Punishment as it stands today.

Some how I just don’t see you as supportive of that as with the abortion issue. Due to politics of course, since you already agreed it should not be taking place in America, IE: the developed world. If you were these republican states that still exercise this barbarism will abolish it.

 

[Ender]

So much for soon to be Saint John Paul’s opinion I guess.

Well, inasmuch as it is an opinion and not Church doctrine we are not obligated to agree with it.

*…prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. *(Cardinal Dulles)

Ender

 

[Ender]

How many innocent people are OK to die for you? Let me answer for you. You will say none, of course. Well it has been proven conclusively that we cannot insure that an innocent wouldn’t be killed in our justice system. Therefore, logically, you cannot support the death penalty. If you do, then you accept innocent death as a consequence of your belief.

It turns out that there are significantly larger numbers of innocents killed by repeat killers than even the opponents of capital punishment claim have been executed in error. If you were to base your position on capital punishment solely on which approach leads to more innocent deaths then you would have to support expanding its use, not eliminating it.

You cannot base law on what may happen.

I would tend to agree with that … but you surely must note that this is in fact the only reason the Catechism gives for using capital punishment - when it is believed to be the only way to protect society against future crimes.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Quite frankly this is just a weakly veiled attempt to protect a political philosophy at the expense of their faith. A way to gel them together in some strange perversion of politics and faith.

This is simply an uncharitable (mis)characterization of the points being made. It not even a response to the arguments let alone a rebuttal.

Ender

 

[Ender]

The Church’s opposition to the death penalty is predicated on the presumption that society has the means to protect itself from violent criminals without taking their life.

Be careful how you phrase this. The Church no more opposes capital punishment than she opposes war. That is, she may recognize them as unfortunate necessities but her doctrines recognize their appropriateness in certain situations. The clergy opposes the use of capital punishment as a practical matter. The Church recognizes the States right to use it as a matter of doctrine.

Ender

 

[Love_God_Too]

Nope, torture is an intrinsic evil, it can never be justified under any circumstances ( unlike Capital Punishment)

I wonder if we were able to go back in CAF’s archives to see your posts during the time that torture was being debated. Around the time of your joining CAF. I would hope you are not exercising revisionism.

 

[Love_God_Too]

This is simply an uncharitable (mis)characterization of the points being made. It not even a response to the arguments let alone a rebuttal.

Ender

I apologize if you feel offended. If it did not apply to you, I don’t know why you would feel so however.

 

[Love_God_Too]

Be careful how you phrase this. The Church no more opposes capital punishment than she opposes war. That is, she may recognize them as unfortunate necessities but her doctrines recognize their appropriateness in certain situations. The clergy opposes the use of capital punishment as a practical matter. The Church recognizes the States right to use it as a matter of doctrine.

Ender

The church opposed George Bush’s Wars too. I direct you to John Paul’s address to the diplomatic corp on that.

catholicism.about.com/od/thechurchintheworld/f/popes_on_iraq.htm

 

[Love_God_Too]

It turns out that there are significantly larger numbers of innocents killed by repeat killers than even the opponents of capital punishment claim have been executed in error. If you were to base your position on capital punishment solely on which approach leads to more innocent deaths then you would have to support expanding its use, not eliminating it.
I would tend to agree with that … but you surely must note that this is in fact the only reason the Catechism gives for using capital punishment - when it is believed to be the only way to protect society against future crimes.

Ender

Note: You never answered the question you evaded it. How many innocents is an acceptable percentage in your desire to maintain your right to State murder?

 

[Brendan]

If church teaching does indeed think it’s OK to kill people, which I don’t believe it does, I guess I am against that teaching.

The quote from the Catechism was right in front of you. What does it say?

What don’t you paraphrase CCC 2267 in your own words. Tell us what read in that statement.

If you disagree, do you think that we get to pick and choose what the Church teaches to suit our personal tastes. If so, that seems to be in conflict in regards to what you were saying about politics.

 

[Brendan]

I wonder if we were able to go back in CAF’s archives to see your posts during the time that torture was being debated. Around the time of your joining CAF. I would hope you are not exercising revisionism.

I am very familar with what I wrote. I am against torture. If you feel otherwise, post where I said I approved of torture.

Take a look at this example. My main objection to the Harry Potter series is that the main character uses torture

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2905830&highlight=torture#post2905830
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2890671&highlight=torture#post2890671

And here is one from my early days,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1265619&highlight=torture#post1265619

If you look at this one - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1258913&postcount=19 you can see I am arguing AGAINST torture.

So where, exactly do you see me stating that torture is anyting but an evil.

 

[Shannon46]

To not punish or execute a criminal would be like saying it’s ok to murder inocent people!!!

 

[Corki]

It turns out that there are significantly larger numbers of innocents killed by repeat killers than even the opponents of capital punishment claim have been executed in error. If you were to base your position on capital punishment solely on which approach leads to more innocent deaths then you would have to support expanding its use, not eliminating it.

Ender

Indeed. In fact, I would say that more people are killed by repeat offenders than are executed in total - guilty or innocent.

In a quick Google search, the number of executions since the US started again in 1976 is a little under 1300. That’s an average of 35 per year - nationwide. In just one city (Phildelphia) 16% of all the murder victims in a given year were killed by criminals on parole - that’s 65 people in a single city, in a single year. *

BTW, this doesn’t even include the numbers of rapes, asssults or attempted murders committed by parolees.

But it’s really not a numbers issue. When opponents of the death penalty throw out the number of death penalty recipients who were later found to be innocent, the numbers just don’t hold water. It is horrific to end the life of someone who is innocent. But there has to be a way to protect the public from criminals who get out and commit more crimes.

And the numbers can be twisted the other way too.

I would tend to agree with that … but you surely must note that this is in fact the only reason the Catechism gives for using capital punishment - when it is believed to be the only way to protect society against future crimes.

*

 

[KateKimmer]

CAF is the only place I know where after the Pope calls for capital punishment to be abolished people still support it.

How very perplexing.

yep…kind of like war.

 

[Corki]

I’m glad to hear it. The interesting thing is I didn’t hear when he was doing it from MOST of those who espouse your narrow view of our church.

Are you talking about this thread? If you didn’t hear a lot of denounciation of torture on this thread, it may be that some posters are trying to stay on topic, which is the death penalty vs. abortion as life issues.

If you are talking about another thread, please point us to that so we can see what you are talking about.

Some how I just don’t see you as supportive of that as with the abortion issue. Due to politics of course, since you already agreed it should not be taking place in America, IE: the developed world. If you were these republican states that still exercise this barbarism will abolish it.

There’s a number of reasons for this.

1. First of all the threat to human life (innocent or not) is exponentially greater when it comes to abortion than to the death penalty. So, it make sense that our energy is more focused in that direction.
2. Second, abortion is a national issue. The death penalty is local. Only about 35 states have the death penalty and most of those don’t use it. In the most recent year I could find stats, 2010, executions were carried out in only 12 states. So for the vast majority of Catholics, it is a social issue but not one they can do anything about. If you live in a no-capital punishment state, you don’t have anything or anybody to rail against or a state captial to hold your rally.
3. The current climate is already anti-death penalty. In addition to the states who don’t execute at all, several others have suspended all executions and the USSC regularly hears challenges to captial punishment - individual cases and general applications (ie methods). Compare this to abortion where the government often takes the position of trying to increase the availability and usage of abortion.
4. As Catholics, we should put our efforts, first and foremost, in fighting those evils that the Church herself has identified as absolutes. Abortion is one of those, euthenasia is one of those, slavery is one of those, etc. Capital punishment is not one of those. Yes, the last two Popes have spoken out strongly against the death penalty but not as an intrinsic evil but as something that is **no longer **necessary in our modern society.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Well all know, it’s not okay to bomb an abortion clinic/planned parenthood or shoot an abortion doctor. But for Pro-Death Penalty Catholics, why is it okay to execute a criminal? I mean their both “murderers” by Catholic standard, right?

From the Catechism:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

The last paragraph/part is why the USCCB and the last two popes have called for an end to the death penalty. Keep in mind though that there are situations where it could be acceptable, although not today in our society.

 

[InJesusItrust]

What about the concept of a Just War? Is that also out of the question now?

 

[Love_God_Too]

Are you talking about this thread? If you didn’t hear a lot of denounciation of torture on this thread, it may be that some posters are trying to stay on topic, which is the death penalty vs. abortion as life issues.

If you are talking about another thread, please point us to that so we can see what you are talking about.

There’s a number of reasons for this.

1. First of all the threat to human life (innocent or not) is exponentially greater when it comes to abortion than to the death penalty. So, it make sense that our energy is more focused in that direction.
2. Second, abortion is a national issue. The death penalty is local. Only about 35 states have the death penalty and most of those don’t use it. In the most recent year I could find stats, 2010, executions were carried out in only 12 states. So for the vast majority of Catholics, it is a social issue but not one they can do anything about. If you live in a no-capital punishment state, you don’t have anything or anybody to rail against or a state captial to hold your rally.
3. The current climate is already anti-death penalty. In addition to the states who don’t execute at all, several others have suspended all executions and the USSC regularly hears challenges to captial punishment - individual cases and general applications (ie methods). Compare this to abortion where the government often takes the position of trying to increase the availability and usage of abortion.
4. As Catholics, we should put our efforts, first and foremost, in fighting those evils that the Church herself has identified as absolutes. Abortion is one of those, euthenasia is one of those, slavery is one of those, etc. Capital punishment is not one of those. Yes, the last two Popes have spoken out strongly against the death penalty but not as an intrinsic evil but as something that is **no longer **necessary in our modern society.

Why don’t you go to work to end it in the state the executes more people than the rest of the country combined, TEXAS, your state. As pointed previously and supported by the Innocence Project, Texas is perhaps, the least accountable state, as it relates to the death penalty. Oh wait, your are against the death penalty, except for all the time you have spent defending it. Faith in Party or Faith in God ? That is truly the question…

How does one justify the support and protection of inexperencial cellular life while having such disregard for a life lived is beyond me.

 

[Love_God_Too]

I am very familar with what I wrote. I am against torture. If you feel otherwise, post where I said I approved of torture.

Take a look at this example. My main objection to the Harry Potter series is that the main character uses torture

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2905830&highlight=torture#post2905830
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2890671&highlight=torture#post2890671

And here is one from my early days,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1265619&highlight=torture#post1265619

If you look at this one - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1258913&postcount=19 you can see I am arguing AGAINST torture.

So where, exactly do you see me stating that torture is anyting but an evil.

LOL So you are against Harry Potter but not the death penalty regardless of What soon to be Saint John Paul said… Pssssst Harry Potter is just a movie.