For Catholics who support the death penalty

[Tony2255]

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Besides detention how else would you defend someone from an unjust aggressor?

Yes, I am concerned for human life, as I would hope most people are. And I am not saying you cannot defend yourself. But I do believe you should ask for forgiveness because killing in any form is wrong. And yes I understand your references to CCC. I’m just stating my views. But I hardly believe the Church will excommunicate me for it.

 

[Tony2255]

It was one example given as to how the death penalty would be acceptable. And I will say this most of the class was equally divided on the matter. But yes they quoted the references from the CCC. Relax folks. You are arguing why its ok to take another person’s life. Other’s feel that it isn’t ok to take life, period. And that’s a bad thing??? It’s not like they are saying set these people free to roam the streets.

As far as the courts finding people guilty, well haven’t they proved time and time again that they aren’t infallible?

 

[Brendan]

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Yes, I know. I specifically mentioned that in my list.

Besides detention how else would you defend someone from an unjust aggressor?

As I mentioned, detention is a bit part of it.

But since the CCC statement will also include the lives of guards and other prisoners, what are the State’s options for safeguarding their lives?

I am convinced that incarceration will be an effective means to safeguard lives in the vast majority of cases. But I will also hold, as does the Church, that there might be cases, however rare, when detention cannot safeguard the lives of guards and fellow inmates.

Yes, I am concerned for human life, as I would hope most people are. And I am not saying you cannot defend yourself. But I do believe you should ask for forgiveness because killing in any form is wrong. And yes I understand your references to CCC. I’m just stating my views. But I hardly believe the Church will excommunicate me for it.

The question then becomes, do you place your own view ahead of the Church’s?

No offense, I have shown you where the Church states that certain killings are not just OK, but even an act of Justice. Don’t you think it is a bit arrogant to state that you know better than the Church on the subject of what is, and is not, an offense against the 5th Commandment?

If I tried, in this thread, to claim to know more than the Church does about Captial Punishment, all of you would have field day criticising my position. So how are your claims any different?

 

[Rence]

Pilate held the responsibility of the state… Where the crowds shouted Crucify Him! Crucify Him!

Pilate was a tool in God’s plan. Jesus is the lamb of God, and He was sacrificed for us all. Jesus was not a rapist, murderer, repeat criminal, cardel manager, buttonman, etc. Comparing Pilate to one of our Justices isn’t appropriate. Neither is comparing Jesus to a criminal.

 

[Rence]

With all do respect, once again, Jesus was executed in an unjust act of capital punishment. Isn’t that enough for you theologically speaking? You simply cannot be prolife and pro death penalty. NOT plausible.

Of course one can be pro-life and not against the death penalty. It isn’t rocket science to recognize the difference between a criminal and a non-criminal. And Jesus was not executed by the ‘power’ of man. He was a sacrifice to God for us. How does a Catholic not see that?

 

[Rence]

Sorry my moral law has never changed. I am prolife period… I exercise no tortured logic to justify executing people. Nor to support torture either… Like many on the right do…

Your moral law isn’t in despute. You have the right to your opininon. The problem is you are holding people to religious laws and teachings that don’t exist. It’s fine and dandy that you reject the death penalty in all circumstances, that’s your right. However, it’s not contrary to Catholicism to recognize the need for it in some circumstances.

 

[Ender]

killing in any form is wrong.

The Church has been very clear about when life may be legitimately taken. She has never believed that killing in any form is wrong.
*“It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.” *(Catechism of Pius X)
Ender

 

[Tony2255]

Brendan; I did not say the Church’s teachings on capital punishment and self defense are wrong. I simply believe that should I kill anyone I would ask for God’s forgiveness because I will have felt that I did wrong. God forbid any of my family were killed I would not ask for the death penalty. And that is my right. The Church says I can not that I have to. Where we differ is that I would ask for forgiveness and you wouldn’t (and according to Church law that is ok).

If that is arrogant, then ok I am arrogant and I will pray on it. I will also pray for you.
John 8:7.

 

[Love_God_Too]

This is also incorrect but it kind of makes the point. It should come as little surprise to anyone that the Church has no doctrine on the war with Iraq so it is a rather gross exaggeration to claim that the Church opposed that war. It may be true that JPII was unhappy Bush made that decision and did not personally feel it was warranted but that in no way means “the Church” opposed the war.

That the Church had no position on the war should be clear from the fact that there was never anything said to dissuade Catholics from participating in it. Had “the Church” found it to be an immoral war then she would have had the obligation to keep Catholics from being a part of it. That this never happened is all the evidence needed to demonstrate that “the Church” took no position.

Ender

" Bush Good John Paul BAD" Unbelievable… You don’t mind if I stick with the Pope do you?

 

[Love_God_Too]

Your moral law isn’t in despute. You have the right to your opininon. The problem is you are holding people to religious laws and teachings that don’t exist. It’s fine and dandy that you reject the death penalty in all circumstances, that’s your right. However, it’s not contrary to Catholicism to recognize the need for it in some circumstances.

What circumstances are justified today. Pray tell? In the western world… Do we need to kill people in TEXAS like we do now? I’m talking LIFE & DEATH not some semantic obscure canonical law argument.

 

[Love_God_Too]

If you think I am not already, you are grossly mistaken.

I have some problems with the way the Innocence Project works, but I will take your word for it on the accountability.

I have never defended it, at least not in over a decade and certainly not on CAF or anywhere that you would have encounted it.

I thought we were talking about abortion vs death penalty. That’s the question for this thread. If you want to talk about party politics, you should probably start another thread.

Who has expressed disregard for life lived? Even those who support the death penalty don’t do so because they disregard life. Catholics are allowed to disagree when it comes to how justice is applied.

And if you are referring to an unborn child as “inexperencial cellular life” that’s just beyond disgusting. Straight out of PP’s playbook.

Facts are facts… Painful or not… I pray God saves your soul…I feel he’s already given up on your party. You keep saying you are against the death penalty while you keep defending it. Very Odd…

 

[Love_God_Too]

Let’s start with this: the State has no right to murder anyone. On the other hand the accidental execution of an innocent person does not qualify as murder so the question itself is meaningless.

As far as what you’re trying to ask, there is no solution that guarantees safety for everyone; all we have is a choice between risking more innocent lives or fewer. There is no option that risks none but the one that risks fewer is the one where capital punishment is used.

Ender

All I can say to this this position of disregard for human life is WOW…

 

[Love_God_Too]

Your moral law isn’t in despute. You have the right to your opininon. The problem is you are holding people to religious laws and teachings that don’t exist. It’s fine and dandy that you reject the death penalty in all circumstances, that’s your right. However, it’s not contrary to Catholicism to recognize the need for it in some circumstances.

Again I ask, What circumstance are justified in the Western world???.. Please define for me the churches position of rare as it is applied to the US…What justifies that in your view…We already know John Paul disagrees… Please enlighten us with your greater knowledge…

 

[KateKimmer]

As it was explained in a recent RCIA class. The death penalty is only condoned in situation where a society or community has no means of detention. Which would leave the community in extreme danger. I do not believe this pertains to the U.S. and most nations.

Thou shalt not kill. No exceptions, ever.

I served in the Marines and some will say, “well that’s different.” I don’t believe it is. I made that choice to join and I will be held responsible for my actions. Self defense or not you are still accountable. Our faith in the Lord should be the only defense we need. We must pray for mercy for our actions.

No matter how heinous the crime or how justified the reason, God is the only one to decide if and when someone dies.

This is not entirely accurate. Society has the right to kill human beings that have
committed and been found guilty of HEINOUS crimes. The church knows this.

I think people are forgetting that prison is no answer. VERY FEW, if any of the criminals in our prison system are rehabilitated.

There is absolutely NO FORMAL BAN on capital punishment from the Roman Catholic Church. Thank God!

 

[Qoeleth]

There is no such thing as a pro-death penalty Catholic. Doesn’t Jesus say, “You who are without sin cast the first stone”? And, if you claim to be without sin, you are defying God (cf. 1 John) The commandment is quite clear “Thou shalt not kill.”

War, execution, abortion, they are all morally wrong. The life of another is not something we have power over. Maybe even putting people in prison is immoral…

 

[MidnightSun12]

Again I ask, What circumstance are justified in the Western world???.. Please define for me the churches position of rare as it is applied to the US…What justifies that in your view…We already know John Paul disagrees… Please enlighten us with your greater knowledge…

I very much doubt that Pope John Paul would have issues voting for a candidate who is against abortion if it meant ceding ground on the death penalty issue.

Some evils are worse then others. Abortion is wrong even beyond the fact that it murders an innocent life every time it is performed…it is wrong because the very design of the act is concieved in evil. Even if it stastically worked out that the death penalty would be unjust for every single inmate in the US at this particular point in time, you cannot say that the act is categorically concieved out of evil.

For example, if it turned out that every single American family (at a hypothetical point in time) did not have serious recourse to use Natural Family Planning to postpone a pregnancy, would using NFP all the sudden become intrinsically evil like using contraception? Absolutely not! In such a case, the pope would have sufficient reason to inform Catholics that NFP is being increasingly mis-used, but he would never put NFP in the same category as contraception.

 

[Brendan]

War, execution, abortion, they are all morally wrong. The life of another is not something we have power over. Maybe even putting people in prison is immoral…

For the first two, the Church says otherwise, at least in certain circumstances.

Really now, God commanded the Israleites to go to war. Who do you think guided the stone that killed Goliath?

If what you say is true, God Himself is not a good enough Catholic for you.

You should really read some St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Tony2255]

Ioannes Paulus PP. II Evangelium vitae paragraphy 56

*56. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offence”.46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated. 47

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: **in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.
**
In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.48
*

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

Very rare, if not practically non-existent.

both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely.

Very Limited way or Abolished completely. - Blessed Pope John Paul II

 

[Corki]

Ioannes Paulus PP. II Evangelium vitae paragraphy 56

56. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offence”.46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated. 47

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: **in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.
**
In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.48

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

Very rare, if not practically non-existent.

both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely.

Very Limited way or Abolished completely. - Blessed Pope John Paul II

Tony this is right on. The death penalty is not wrong because it is immoral or an intrinsic evil. The application of the death penalty, in most cases, is wrong because it is unneccessary. The words “tendency” and “rare” make that very clear.

 

[KateKimmer]

why would it be unnecessary?