For Catholics who support the death penalty

[KateKimmer]

Even though some people don’t like it the FACT is that the Catholic Church has never
said the death penalty must not be used. Never, not once.

Pope John Paul was against it, but he did not speak ex cathedra regarding it.

I am going to address the white elephant in the room. What about soldiers right now in
Aghanistan and previously to that Iraq, who kill ? They get an exemption?

Yes,because they are defending our Country. Death penalty is defending our society
and giving some justice (albeit small) to the family of the victims who will never see their loved one again, or in the case the person is still alive, try to give them some compensation for the hurt they will have to endure until they draw their last breath.

Ever notice how many people are against the death penalty,but say NOTHING regarding the victims and the victims’ families? They say ZIP.

And also, criminals are RARELY, if EVER, rehabilitated.

 

[Brendan]

why would it be unnecessary?

Again CCC 2267

If there other effective means to safe guard human life, the state should use them. In a modern society, that would mean detention. But the possibility remains that there might be cases where detention is not an effective means to safeguard human life ( which would include safeguarding other inmates or cases where a criminal has such status as to threated people outside of prison walls aka order hits)

Those circumstance could be included by the State when it evaluates the level of saftey offered by non violent means to determine their effectiveness.

 

[KateKimmer]

Anyone miss Timothy McVeigh? or Ted Bundy? I don’t.

 

[Brendan]

Anyone miss Timothy McVeigh? or Ted Bundy? I don’t.

On Timothy McVeigh, he had been baptized Catholic but never raised in the Faith. While on death row, he had a reversion.

He asked for, and recieved, Sacramental Confession, and just before he died, he recieved Last Rites (which includes absolution and viatcum)

So we will see him in Heaven

In addition, since willful acceptance of just punishment carries with it the remediation of temporal punishment due to sin (indulgence) to varing degrees, his purgation was greatly reduced, if not eliminated.

 

[Tony2255]

Even though some people don’t like it the FACT is that the Catholic Church has never
said the death penalty must not be used. Never, not once.

Pope John Paul was against it, but he did not speak ex cathedra regarding it.

I am going to address the white elephant in the room. What about soldiers right now in
Aghanistan and previously to that Iraq, who kill ? They get an exemption?

Yes,because they are defending our Country. Death penalty is defending our society
and giving some justice (albeit small) to the family of the victims who will never see their loved one again, or in the case the person is still alive, try to give them some compensation for the hurt they will have to endure until they draw their last breath.

Ever notice how many people are against the death penalty,but say NOTHING regarding the victims and the victims’ families? They say ZIP.

And also, criminals are RARELY, if EVER, rehabilitated.

CCC:

1933 This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us. The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies.39 Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"94 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.

Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."95 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."96

2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."97

The war itself is a whole other animal. Is it just? This country? Innocent civilians? Orders? Love they enemy? Oil vs Defense? etc etc etc It could go on forever and never come to an agreement. (Before you launch attacks. I’m just trying to give examples of what might be said)

If criminals are rarely if ever rehabilitated why are there so many Catholic ministries within prison. Also if only 1% are being rehabilitated wouldn’t that point to a problem with our penal system. Because it sounds as though you are saying that the 99% are beyond saving.

Are the families in pain because their loved one is now standing in the presence of our Lord? Or that they must wait to experience such joy?

I sense many pent up feelings. I hope all is well. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

 

[KateKimmer]

.

So we will see him in Heaven

I HIGHLY doubt that.
I have never once read or heard that he a “reversion” . But even if he did, he never once issued a public statement of remorse or any type of apology.

 

[KateKimmer]

Are the families in pain because their loved one is now standing in the presence of our Lord? Or that they must wait to experience such joy?

The surviving family members have no guarantee that their loved one is with God.
Perhaps their loved one died without a chance for repentance. Another injustice to their loved one.

 

[KateKimmer]

CCC:

1933 This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us. The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies.39 Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"94 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.

Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."95 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."96

2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."97

The war itself is a whole other animal. Is it just? This country? Innocent civilians? Orders? Love they enemy? Oil vs Defense? etc etc etc It could go on forever and never come to an agreement. (Before you launch attacks. I’m just trying to give examples of what might be said)

If criminals are rarely if ever rehabilitated why are there so many Catholic ministries within prison. Also if only 1% are being rehabilitated wouldn’t that point to a problem with our penal system. Because it sounds as though you are saying that the 99% are beyond saving.

Are the families in pain because their loved one is now standing in the presence of our Lord? Or that they must wait to experience such joy?

I sense many pent up feelings. I hope all is well. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

Just punishmenet for crimes is NOT equatable to “hatred and anger”
Just because we are called to forgive people does not mean that they deserve ZERO punishment. If that were the case, why have any jails at all. Just let everyone do whatever crime they felt like and say “we forgive you all is well”.
One more thing , just because there are prison ministries, Catholic or other Christian ministries, does not mean teh criminal is rehabilitated. Most, if not all, ex-cons
are exactly that…CON ARTISTS.
There have been many, many statistics that show FEW criminals are rehabilitated successfully.
I will continue to support the death penalty with absoutely no qualms. I am on the side of the victims, not the perpetrators!

 

[Corki]

I HIGHLY doubt that.
I have never once read or heard that he a “reversion” . But even if he did, he never once issued a public statement of remorse or any type of apology.

Even Wikipedia says he requested a Catholic chaplain before he died. If he received Last Rites, including a final confession, we have every reason to hope that he is in Heaven.

 

[KateKimmer]

Even Wikipedia says he requested a Catholic chaplain before he died. If he received Last Rites, including a final confession, we have every reason to hope that he is in Heaven.

if he was truly sorry, why no official apology?

 

[Corki]

if he was truly sorry, why no official apology?

We don’t really know but it doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is the final disposition of his soul.

 

[KateKimmer]

Doesn’t matter???
You do know he killed many, many people right?
You do know that contrition is required for sin to be forgiven, right?
Perhaps if you had lost a loved one in the oklahoma massacre, your opinion would be different.

 

[Corki]

Doesn’t matter???
You do know he killed many, many people right?
You do know that contrition is required for sin to be forgiven, right?
Perhaps if you had lost a loved one in the oklahoma massacre, your opinion would be different.

Contrition is required. Absolutely. So is restitution, which in his case is that he lost his life. There is no requirement for a public apology. It doesn’t matter if he killed one or a thousand people. No man’s sins are beyond God’s mercy.

 

[KateKimmer]

Since none of us know if there was contrition in timothy mcveigh’s heart, then none of us know for sure he is in heaven. I have serious doubts.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

" Bush Good John Paul BAD" Unbelievable… You don’t mind if I stick with the Pope do you?

For starters, you could try sticking on topic and not interjecting your own views of what you think others believe. I believe you’re the one who brought up politics and all that - and it really hasn’t nothing at all to do with this subject. I’ve known people who support the death penalty who have voted for five-plus different parties at times. Forget the politics and try reading what others have posted concerning Church teaching. You’ll get further that way.

As far as sticking with popes, let’s just say that the opinions of various popes have been different. For instance, JPII seems to be personally against the death penalty (note, this does not make the Church against it!). Fine. That’s his opinion. Now, there’s another pope - it might have been Innocent III, but I’m not sure - who had robbers executed and their heads posted on stakes by roads leading to Rome. It sounds to me like his personal opinion was the death penalty was just fine.

If you’re going only by opinions, then you’re in quite a bit of a quandary because here you have one pope that’s against it and one that’s for it. Who to believe? Well, skip on by them and go back to what the Church officially says regarding the topic. I don’t think I need to re-post it for you since it’s been in front of your eyes four, five, maybe six times already.

 

[Love_God_Too]

For starters, you could try sticking on topic and not interjecting your own views of what you think others believe. I believe you’re the one who brought up politics and all that - and it really hasn’t nothing at all to do with this subject. I’ve known people who support the death penalty who have voted for five-plus different parties at times. Forget the politics and try reading what others have posted concerning Church teaching. You’ll get further that way.

As far as sticking with popes, let’s just say that the opinions of various popes have been different. For instance, JPII seems to be personally against the death penalty (note, this does not make the Church against it!). Fine. That’s his opinion. Now, there’s another pope - it might have been Innocent III, but I’m not sure - who had robbers executed and their heads posted on stakes by roads leading to Rome. It sounds to me like his personal opinion was the death penalty was just fine.

If you’re going only by opinions, then you’re in quite a bit of a quandary because here you have one pope that’s against it and one that’s for it. Who to believe? Well, skip on by them and go back to what the Church officially says regarding the topic. I don’t think I need to re-post it for you since it’s been in front of your eyes four, five, maybe six times already.

I’ll still stick with John Paul if you don’t mind.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I’ll still stick with John Paul if you don’t mind.

I’m waiting for you to state that the other pope was evil because of his beliefs.

 

[Love_God_Too]

For starters, you could try sticking on topic and not interjecting your own views of what you think others believe. I believe you’re the one who brought up politics and all that - and it really hasn’t nothing at all to do with this subject. I’ve known people who support the death penalty who have voted for five-plus different parties at times. Forget the politics and try reading what others have posted concerning Church teaching. You’ll get further that way.

As far as sticking with popes, let’s just say that the opinions of various popes have been different. For instance, JPII seems to be personally against the death penalty (note, this does not make the Church against it!). Fine. That’s his opinion. Now, there’s another pope - it might have been Innocent III, but I’m not sure - who had robbers executed and their heads posted on stakes by roads leading to Rome. It sounds to me like his personal opinion was the death penalty was just fine.

If you’re going only by opinions, then you’re in quite a bit of a quandary because here you have one pope that’s against it and one that’s for it. Who to believe? Well, skip on by them and go back to what the Church officially says regarding the topic. I don’t think I need to re-post it for you since it’s been in front of your eyes four, five, maybe six times already.

By the way, I believe it’s disingenuous to suggest that politics does not serve a significant role in this debate. One needs only to scroll back and see the defense of the war, torture, death penalty, and disregard for the poor party, over and over again. It’s the forest and the trees thing. My opinion of course.

 

[Love_God_Too]

I’m waiting for you to state that the other pope was evil because of his beliefs.

I can certainly state some evil Popes if you like. Have you ever watched the Borgia’s?

 

[Brendan]

I HIGHLY doubt that.
I have never once read or heard that he a “reversion” . But even if he did, he never once issued a public statement of remorse or any type of apology.

The prison chaplain said that he did. As far as public statement or apology, That has never been a requirement for absolution.

Strapped to a gurney, awaiting the lethal injection Monday that would punish him for the Oklahoma City bombing, Timothy McVeigh asked to see a priest.

Bureau of Prisons officials said McVeigh, a self-described agnostic, received the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick by an unidentified prison chaplain.

“McVeigh did see last rites which were provided by a BOP chaplain,” said Jeff Grondolsky, a spokesman with the Bureau of Prisons.

articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/justice/mcveigh.03_1_timothy-mcveigh-first-federal-execution-mcveigh-attorney?_s=PM:LAW

This falls under Matt 20:1-16. He came late to the vineyard, but he came and received a day’s wage.