For Catholics who support the death penalty

[hosemonkey]

No, Pope Pius XII noted that those guilty of capital crimes, by their own actions, forfeit their right to life. But that is distinct from saying they are no longer humans. God made them human, they are the among those who possess a Thomistic rational soul, and to state otherwise is a denial of Church teaching.

Split whatever hairs you like, they have forfeited their right to life. The church teaches that society has the right to protect itself against dangereous predators. These people should not be allowed to live out their lives in relative comfort while their victims are long dead. I disagree with the death penalty as presently applied. Too much time elapses between crime and punishment. Fair trial, using all resources, two appeals, if proven guilty, execution the following Friday. Full stop. Guillotine. Swift, humane, cheap.

 

[hosemonkey]

Brendan to which authorities are you referring? “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted from God.”

Germany 1933-1945 Governing Authority, Nazi Party.

Tony, you do not have to deal with that authority any more, the war is over. Principle is correct, that government was incorrect.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan to which authorities are you referring? “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted from God.”

Germany 1933-1945 Governing Authority, Nazi Party.

That authority?

Well, the Holy Spirit inspirted St. Paul to declare that while under Roman Rule, did He not? Chrits Himself recognized the principle when He declared to Pilate, “You have no authority over me that did not come from above”

Now the defintion of good and of wrong doing are that of he Church’s not the governemnt, so when a government punishes one for doing good, that is error.

But we can certainly all admit that crimes like murder fall under the category of doers of evil.

I’ll ask again, since you never answered the question: Under whose authority did St. Paul state that the civil authorities act with when they “bear the sword”?

 

[Corki]

I always ask people who are against the death penalty whether they acknowledge that the Church does teach the death penalty is a just punishment for murder. That point is not up for consideration. Its not vengeance to want someone to receive a just penalty for their crime. You can forgive someone and still wish their crime to be punished justly. Wanting someone to receive the death penalty for committing a crime does not mean you want them to go to hell. You can try and argue that the death penalty is not necessary in some cases, but you can never argue it would be an unjust punishment for a 1st degree murder. In terms of time to repent, in the U.S death row inmates are getting 13 years on average to repent of their crimes.

I will take the bait here.

I am against the death penalty **in spite of **understanding that the Church teaches it is a just punishment for some crimes. The Church does not teach that the death penalty is always wrong but neither does she teach that it is the only or even the preferred method of meeting out justice to certain criminals, especially in countries with developed systems of incarceration. My objection to the death penalty comes from its application,not its prohibition by the Church since no such prohibition exists. It is delivered too infrequently and too erratically to be a good deterrant. In most cases, a murderer has a better chance of aquittal than of execution. The motivation for using the death penalty seems to be as much to exact revenge as it is to meet out justice.

But here’s the quandry. In my opinion, the US does not have a system in place that can protect society from the worst criminals without executing them (Pope John Paul’s condidtion). But neither do we have a system in place that assures that death sentences are given out in a manner that is just and without corruption.

 

[Tony2255]

During the time St. Paul wrote that he was referring to God’s authority over the Romans.

And you say that the Nazi’s erred. So who’s to say this Government erring, ie attempt to force Catholic healthcare to include birth control.

The argument fits when it suits you. You can pick and choose which civil authorities you deem fit.

Funny thing is I’ve said more than once that, currently, the Death Penalty does not go against Church doctrine. What I have said is that I believe it’s wrong and should be abolished. And that was responded to by being called arrogant. Does that go against the Christ’s teachings?

JOHN PAUL II, HOMILY, St. Louis, January 27, 1999

"The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform (cf. Evangelium Vitae, 27). I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_27011999_stlouis_en.html

Pope Benedict XVI encouraged countries around the world to end the death penalty as a legal sanction at his Nov. 30 general audience.

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-benedict-end-the-death-penalty/

“I don’t even want it for murderers, for the Mafiosi, for traitors or for tyrants,” Father Lombardi added. “I don’t want it out of vengeance, or to free ourselves from troublesome and expensive prisoners, not even for alleged mercy.”
“Because,” he said, “I seek a greater justice. And it is good to walk on this path to increasingly affirm, in favor of everyone, the dignity of the person and of human life, of which we are not the ones to dispose.””~ Father Lombardi

crisismagazine.com/2011/i-dont-want-the-death-penalty-for-anyone

Arrogance?

And with that I bid you adieu…

 

[Ender]

Just punishmenet for crimes is NOT equatable to “hatred and anger”

Not only is it not commensurate with hatred, the state has a moral obligation to apply a just punishment for crimes.

Just because we are called to forgive people does not mean that they deserve ZERO punishment.

This is another point that is often misunderstood. Forgiveness absolutely does not mean that punishment is avoided.

I will continue to support the death penalty with absoutely no qualms. I am on the side of the victims, not the perpetrators!

Supporting the death penalty is acceptable because the Church approves of it. What we see in CCC 2267 is opposition to its use in current society because it is believed to cause more problems than it solves. That is, it is a prudential objection to its application, not a moral objection to its existence.

Ender

 

[RACJ]

CAF is the only place I know where after the Pope calls for capital punishment to be abolished people still support it.

How very perplexing.

Sorry, many crimes, such as the killings in Tulsa, are so heinous that I'd vote to execute the perps if I was a juror. And I'd do it quickly, unless an issue such as mental retardation was a mitigating factor. :( Blessings, Rob

 

[Brendan]

During the time St. Paul wrote that he was referring to God’s authority over the Romans.

Interesting, the Church considers the Bible to be written for all time.

And you say that the Nazi’s erred. So who’s to say this Government erring, ie attempt to force Catholic healthcare to include birth control.

The argument fits when it suits you. You can pick and choose which civil authorities you deem fit.

No contradiction at all. The Church is infallible in matter of Faith and Morals. THerefore we look to the Church to define what is good and what is evil.

It follows to the secular authorites, as St. Paul noted, to punish those who do evil, with the sword if necessary.

In both the case of the Nazi’s and the Birth Control mandate, I stand on firm ground. The Church has declared that both the killing of innocents AND the use of contraception are intrinsically evil. Therefore it falls to the civil government to enact laws that prohibt both of those. Sadly, in the case of the Nazi’s and the in the case of the Obama adminsitration, the civil authorities have not only failed to promote the good and punish the evil, they have promoted it.

Funny thing is I’ve said more than once that, currently, the Death Penalty does not go against Church doctrine. What I have said is that I believe it’s wrong and should be abolished. And that was responded to by being called arrogant. Does that go against the Christ’s teachings?

If you are claiming that the teachings of the Church do not correspond with God’s desire, then you are mistaken. It is the Church that is infallible on matters of Faith and Morals, not either of us. If either of us have opions on matters of Faith and Morals that run do not coincide with the Church’s then those opinions need to change, for they are, by definion, in error.