For Dads eyes only: Sex life with kids, NFP etc

[PolarGuy]

I give criticism where it’s earned.

OK, I’ll give advice to the OP:

OP: Avoid obnoxious, useless, sexist “advice.”

There, I offered advice.

 

[underacloud]

I give criticism where it’s earned.

OK, I’ll give advice to the OP:

OP: Avoid obnoxious, useless, sexist “advice.”

There, I offered advice.

You will note I asked for constructive advice.

Try again!

(PS I’m a man and I reject your accusation of sexism.)

 

[PolarGuy]

I’d personally say my advice was far more constructive than lots of other (useless) “advice” offered OP.

Now, as for you, Under, you are free to reject my claim that OP was the victim of sexism - but he was, whether you reject it or not.

Whether you are a man; a woman; or a space alien; is irrelevant: OP got sexism, and you, for that matter, admitted he was given a double standard.

Poor OP. He deserved better.

 

[underacloud]

…and you, for that matter, admitted he was given a double standard.

Not all double standards are bad. Many exist for very good reasons, as explained.

Poor OP. He deserved better.

The OP deserves some constructive advice, which I have attempted to give. The OP can weigh the merits and applicability of that advice for himself. Meanwhile, your participation in this thread remains merely to criticise others and not to offer any constructive advice to the OP. Perhaps you can put your energies into addressing the OP’s questions? No doubt he deserves to benefit from your great wisdom.

 

[Dulcie]

I dont think anyone else has mentioned it, but perhaps your wife is up to something shady? The constant excuse-making is very concerning. The kids in the bed thing just sounds like a coy.

The OP’s wife is a stay-at-home mother to two small children, who also happens to live with her parents. Unless she has a Time-Turner, Hermione Granger-style, I think this suggestion is rather unrealistic!

Speaking as a woman, I can think of few things that would lower my libido more than being permanently in “mummy” mode, even when in the marital bed itself, and with my parents constantly around as well so that I would also be in “daughter” mode. You have to feel at least slightly sexy to desire sex, and these conditions are not ideal. Which is why a lot of posters are suggesting that the OP’s initimate relationship with his wife is unlikely to improve until they have more space for themselves as a couple, to rediscover each other, both by moving into their own home and by stopping the children from being constantly in the marital bed with them.

 

[SWolf]

I’m REALLY unimpressed with some of the posters’ “advice”:

1. This is Dad’s fault because he “doesn’t know how to please his wife” sexually; or
2. This is Dad’s fault because his wife is up to something “shady;” or
3. This is Dad’s fault because he’s somehow “not a man” for not “securing” a place for his family to live (as if saving money, as opposed to irresponsibly borrowing more than one can afford to repay is somehow ‘manly.’

1. It makes life better for both. She still has a marital debt to conjugal relations with her husband though.
2. No evidence present
3. Living with your in-laws and being unable to secure one’s own place is incredibly unattractive, equivalent to a 400 pound wife. If a woman wanted sex with her unwilling husband and she admitted to being obese, I would tell her to lose weight.

Seriously, folks: If the OP were a woman, would there ever be a hint of advice suggesting that she didn’t know how to please a man? No, of course not.

Double standards, as usual.

There would of course be advice that he was doing something shady, because there’s always the assumption that the husband is cheating.

This, however, is very true.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The Billings Method. I am going to book a session though so we can have a more one-on-one approach to get the best information.

They each have their own beds, but you know kids, they cry and whine during the night. It’s easier for us in the short term (so we can sleep) to let them in our bed. Of course in the long run, we’re probably creating bad habits.

The billings method has an online charting system and the possibility to work with an instructor.

woomb.org/

 

[CallMeDad]

Count me on the side of those who say get out of the in-law’s house sooner rather than later. OP does not mention how his wife’s relationship is with her parents, but I would have to imagine that she is not at her best with two young children running around her ankles all day. A wife can feel judged if she feels she is constantly under a microscope. The best way to deal with that in my opinion is to move out, although a steady stream of assurances does help somewhat in the meantime. She needs to be in an environment where she can let her tensions go when she lays down with you at the end of the day, and it may be that she cannot do that where she is now. I understand about saving for the house, but it sounds like you need to look pretty seriously at finding a way to make an apartment work in the meantime.

That, and if I were you I would feel my own tensions in your environment. Also not conducive.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

1. It makes life better for both. She still has a marital debt to conjugal relations with her husband though.
2. Living with your in-laws and being unable to secure one’s own place is incredibly unattractive, equivalent to a 400 pound wife. If a woman wanted sex with her unwilling husband and she admitted to being obese, I would tell her to lose weight.

Not necessarily. Sometimes, life happens. Anyone who let’s their financial situation rob them of sexual intimacy with their spouse is insane.

And my advice for the 400 lbs woman would be to lose weight because she owes it to both herself and her husband. But an obese wife doesn’t get a man of the hook for sex. And living with parents, being a new mom, or whatever else the wife is complaining about doesn’t get her out of sex either.

I’m of the belief that denying a spouse sexual intimacy is an act of cruelty, and I am always in favor of letting the denier know in no uncertain terms exactly what they’re doing, that they’re violating their vows, and that they are seriously damaging the marriage. No game playing, no trying to “woo” or beg, just upfront communication.

If she knows what she’s doing to her husband and marriage and continues to do it, then he will know where he stands with his wife.

 

[bitterhope]

In my jurisdiction, lending institutions are obligated to properly assess a borrower’s capacity to repay a loan. Simply accepting $ estimates of income and expenses from the applicant, divorced from the reality of circumstances, is unacceptable. Realistic expenses, number of incomes, etc impact ability to repay. Are the U.S. Lending institutions truly required to close their eyes to the facts when assessing a loan?

My family was approved for our loan because of our family size. Yes, we were asked about income, debts, marital status, employment, and number in household/number of minor dependents. Thankfully we were approved for a low income family loan due to us having a big family/low income/no debt–much better interest rate. If it is illegal to ask these questions, every lender I know is doing it wrong.

To the OP, my husband and I have 8 kids and I can’t imagine needing a 4 bedroom house that costs $600,000. To me that’s not a realistic option. You might want to readjust your ideas of what is needed to raise a family. Our family of 10 is quite comfortable in a 3 bedroom house that cost quite a bit less than $130,000 on a nice chunk of land (3 acres) for the kids to roam. Kids don’t require nearly as much as we adults seem to think they need. If you all are currently surviving in a single bedroom, imagine how nice it would be to have even just TWO bedrooms.

My husband and I had four kids in less than 3 years of marriage (2, 1 and then twins). It is not easy but there is no reason whatsoever for a wife to consistently deny her husband intimacy. I fear that this is a sign for struggles to come. I’ll keep you all in my prayers.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Just wanted to chime in re how she feels about sex and what you’re doing.

Asking her honestly why she doesn’t enjoy it would be a really good place to start, especially if you can do this at a time when you aren’t going to be interrupted by the kids or her parents. I really like the idea of going to a movie and dinner and then a hotel for a few hours, or if at all possible overnight.

If she’s not enjoying it anymore, her body may have changed its responses to certain things after she had kids…and that’s okay, not to mention perfectly normal! DH and I had a few issues like this after I had DD. Without being too graphic, things that used to be really good for me weren’t anymore, and so I was frustrated because no, sex wasn’t much fun for me, and he didn’t understand why I wasn’t as into it because his doing A, B, and C had always been awesome from my perspective, and he was doing A, B, and C, so I ought to enjoy it, right? It ended up that it was almost like the first couple of months we were married in that we had to find out again what I liked and what I didn’t. This wasn’t at all a reflection on him; he had been doing what he knew I liked, and it wasn’t his fault my body had changed and no longer liked certain things but did like others. Once we slowed down, took more time, and tried some other things (all okay in Church teaching, I should add) while I made sure to communicate better about what I did and didn’t like now, things sorted out much better for both of us.

There’s also the fact that she just might be massively touched out. I admit I dislike being in constant close contact with people more than the average person (babywearing, unless for a specific purpose like going through an airport, stressed me out), but if she’s carrying the kids around all day and then sleeping with them at night, she really is never getting a break to relax, not be touched, and just be herself.

As a side note, I find the idea that she’s fooling around utterly ludicrous. Any woman who could manage that on top of being a SAHM to several small children in her parents’ house should be extensively studied by efficiency groups.

 

[UbiCaritas]

My family was approved for our loan because of our family size. Yes, we were asked about income, debts, marital status, employment, and number in household/number of minor dependents. Thankfully we were approved for a low income family loan due to us having a big family/low income/no debt–much better interest rate. If it is illegal to ask these questions, every lender I know is doing it wrong.

To the OP, my husband and I have 8 kids and I can’t imagine needing a 4 bedroom house that costs $600,000. To me that’s not a realistic option. You might want to readjust your ideas of what is needed to raise a family. Our family of 10 is quite comfortable in a 3 bedroom house that cost quite a bit less than $130,000 on a nice chunk of land (3 acres) for the kids to roam. Kids don’t require nearly as much as we adults seem to think they need. If you all are currently surviving in a single bedroom, imagine how nice it would be to have even just TWO bedrooms.

My husband and I had four kids in less than 3 years of marriage (2, 1 and then twins). It is not easy but there is no reason whatsoever for a wife to consistently deny her husband intimacy. I fear that this is a sign for struggles to come. I’ll keep you all in my prayers.

The OP lives in Sydney. Housing prices there are insane, comparable almost to those in New York, from what I understand. We live in Texas, in a 4 bedroom (3, if you think of one of them as a play room, and we do) house for which we paid about $130K a couple of years ago. It’s in a decent, if certainly far from ritzy, neighborhood; we can let kids play outside without worrying about shootings/gangs/etc. We drive cars that are 8-9 years old (which is about standard on our street) and live modestly. Aside from a date night last month, I can’t remember the last time we had beef (hamburgers every couple of weeks aside) on the menu; beans and other meatless dishes are SOP, with chicken a couple of nights/week. I mention all of this to give a perspective on our standard of living.

Our house in New York, DC or Sydney areas would have cost about $500-$600K (in US dollars, I should add).

 

[SWolf]

Not necessarily. Sometimes, life happens. Anyone who let’s their financial situation rob them of sexual intimacy with their spouse is insane.

And my advice for the 400 lbs woman would be to lose weight because she owes it to both herself and her husband. But an obese wife doesn’t get a man of the hook for sex. And living with parents, being a new mom, or whatever else the wife is complaining about doesn’t get her out of sex either.

I’m of the belief that denying a spouse sexual intimacy is an act of cruelty, and I am always in favor of letting the denier know in no uncertain terms exactly what they’re doing, that they’re violating their vows, and that they are seriously damaging the marriage. No game playing, no trying to “woo” or beg, just upfront communication.

If she knows what she’s doing to her husband and marriage and continues to do it, then he will know where he stands with his wife.

True.

He has every right to call her out on not having sex. The man with the wife who let herself go has the same obligation.

The more ideal situation is when one isn’t doing sex out of duty, but is emotionally fully into it. The current environment of living with her parents with kids screaming does not seem conducive to that for his wife.

 

[TyburnTreeHuggr]

Hey OP,

Dad of just over a year here. I have to imagine it’s tough for you. NFP isn’t that fun for my wife and me (she too, can’t figure out any mucus pattern- and to those who say she’s not trying or what have you, sometimes a lady’s hormones are just an anomaly) and sometimes a guy doesn’t get as much affection as he’d like. I would second the poster who said the breast feeding and new baby are probably what’s decreasing her libido and making mucus observations that much harder.

Being a Midwestern American myself (and a bootstraps kinda guy), when we couldn’t live in the city comfortably, what with student loan debt and my wife wanting to stay home with our boy, we packed up and moved to a small town. Now, we’re 30 plus miles from the nearest shopping center BUT, cost of living is lower, saving is easier (there’s less to spend it on), and life is more centered around needs than wants.

I have no idea what housing is like in Australia, but I’d say find a decent job in a rural town, learn to live simply, and you could have it made! Also, getting away from family isn’t necessarily bad either: then you can raise your family how you like and your wife will feel less judged.

That’s my take, anyway.

Ps. What’s your occupation, if I may ask?

 

[EmilyRenee]

Thanks, Tyburn Tree Hugger…

I, too, am a small town Midwestern lady though we live in the city now. I have a beautiful 17 month old baby girl born ten months after our wedding. My husband could have almost written the post. (We do have our own apt though). I nanny for a little guy so my baby girl can stay with me but we still have income because we are broke.

Baby girl still sleeps with us and is still nursing 6+ times a day. My cycle hasn’t returned and I have mixed signals, that even with doing a pp class, I can’t accurately figure out. I don’t trust nfp, so I refuse sex. I know that I cannot handle another baby right now, so I will not put myself in a position to have one.

Fwiw, I don’t feel supported by anyone, including my husband, in parenting, and I don’t trust him. I have felt let down in every way since delivering the baby. It was a traumatic delivery and I likely have some ptsd from it.That being said, my husband and I realized how different our parenting ideas were AFTER we had our lo. He hates that she’s in our bed but she literally won’t sleep without and I need sleep. He doesn’t get up with her at night and can’t get her to sleep. I’m exhausted… we could use counseling, I’m sure, but he refuses to go, saying that if I wanted to make love with him, it would solve all our problems and counseling wouldn’t help. I disagree…i don’t trust him anymore and he’d too hard œn tr baby and me, and I rrefuse to bring more children into this.

Op, make sue there isn’t some underlining reason your wife isn’t happy. My husband wont listen to me and thinks I’m selfish and over reacting.

 

[Xantippe]

The OP lives in Sydney. Housing prices there are insane, comparable almost to those in New York, from what I understand. We live in Texas, in a 4 bedroom (3, if you think of one of them as a play room, and we do) house for which we paid about $130K a couple of years ago. It’s in a decent, if certainly far from ritzy, neighborhood; we can let kids play outside without worrying about shootings/gangs/etc. We drive cars that are 8-9 years old (which is about standard on our street) and live modestly. Aside from a date night last month, I can’t remember the last time we had beef (hamburgers every couple of weeks aside) on the menu; beans and other meatless dishes are SOP, with chicken a couple of nights/week. I mention all of this to give a perspective on our standard of living.

Our house in New York, DC or Sydney areas would have cost about $500-$600K (in US dollars, I should add).

Right. I don’t know Sydney, but we used to live in the DC metro area, and there was about a year (2006-2007) where I hunted for a decent house under $400k and didn’t find one. The closest I came was a $399k house that faced the bare wall of the metro line. There was no other side of the street–it was just the wall. The runner up was (I think) a $435k house in a great little neighborhood with very good schools–but it had a water tower looming over it literally in the neighboring lot. (That was all just before the housing crash.) And these weren’t exactly close-in neighborhoods–it would have been a 75-90 minute public transportation commute for my husband (we didn’t have a car or drive then).

I got sick of looking at dinky $475k and $495k houses in bad neighborhoods with bad schools where half the bedrooms were probably in violation of code (basement bedrooms, tiny windows). I eventually gave up on the DC metro area and we moved to Texas, where we now have twice the house for half the money and nearly twice the income we had then, plus two kids in private school.

Big coastal metro areas are hard on median income families, even if it’s a good median income.

 

[Xantippe]

Another thing–bear in mind that Australian dollars aren’t exactly equivalent to US dollars.

I was just playing with an online exchange calculator, and it says that $600,000 Australian is equivalent to around $457,000 US.

 

[LongingSoul]

Another thing–bear in mind that Australian dollars aren’t exactly equivalent to US dollars.

I was just playing with an online exchange calculator, and it says that $600,000 Australian is equivalent to around $457,000 US.

However the average wage rates and cost of living make the value pretty comparable.

 

[alphawoman]

Thanks, Tyburn Tree Hugger…

I, too, am a small town Midwestern lady though we live in the city now. I have a beautiful 17 month old baby girl born ten months after our wedding. My husband could have almost written the post. (We do have our own apt though). I nanny for a little guy so my baby girl can stay with me but we still have income because we are broke.

Baby girl still sleeps with us and is still nursing 6+ times a day. My cycle hasn’t returned and I have mixed signals, that even with doing a pp class, I can’t accurately figure out. I don’t trust nfp, so I refuse sex. I know that I cannot handle another baby right now, so I will not put myself in a position to have one.

Fwiw, I don’t feel supported by anyone, including my husband, in parenting, and I don’t trust him. I have felt let down in every way since delivering the baby. It was a traumatic delivery and I likely have some ptsd from it.That being said, my husband and I realized how different our parenting ideas were AFTER we had our lo. He hates that she’s in our bed but she literally won’t sleep without and I need sleep. He doesn’t get up with her at night and can’t get her to sleep. I’m exhausted… we could use counseling, I’m sure, but he refuses to go, saying that if I wanted to make love with him, it would solve all our problems and counseling wouldn’t help. I disagree…i don’t trust him anymore and he’d too hard œn tr baby and me, and I rrefuse to bring more children into this.

Op, make sue there isn’t some underlining reason your wife isn’t happy. My husband wont listen to me and thinks I’m selfish and over reacting.

I really feel for you in your situation, EmilyRenee. Postpartum NFP can be extremely difficult and require extended abstinence if you must avoid. That’s part of responsible parenthood, though it’s bloody hard. It feels extremely unfair to be tacitly forced by a spouse to either give up your desired parenting (and optimal child nutrition) because a lack of patience and self-sacrifice by a husband or be on the receiving end of disagreeableness and dissent. Then you get the “helpful” advice urging early weaning or advocacy for less effective postpartum methods, like Billings. I’ll pray for you, as we’ve done the extended abstinence gambit (though DH has been, if not enthusiastic, quietly ideologically supportive).

More generally, not addressing EmilyRenee…

I wouldn’t be surprised if the OP’s wife has some genuine, deeply felt reasons for wanting to avoid and is either too exhausted or unsupported to express her feelings fully. If a wife expects her husband to be unresponsive or unsupportive in response to her wishes, or if she doesn’t expect the extenuating factor to be reconciled soon, sometimes avoidance is the least harmful way to secure at least a little time of being able to exercise her wishes.

The OP alluded to buying a house for “as many kids as possible”. I wonder the extent to which the wife agrees or disagrees with that vision. Personally, I would find that plan presumptuous and feel like I was being objectified as a baby machine in her shoes. We know nothing about her personal or professional aspirations and how that plan reconciles with her desired life plan.

 

[Xantippe]

The OP alluded to buying a house for “as many kids as possible”. I wonder the extent to which the wife agrees or disagrees with that vision. Personally, I would find that plan presumptuous and feel like I was being objectified as a baby machine in her shoes. We know nothing about her personal or professional aspirations and how that plan reconciles with her desired life plan.

Right.

It may be that that used to be her plan, too, but that she’s finding life a lot harder than she expected.

Hence the lack of enthusiasm for the activity necessary for producing that next baby.