For Eastern Orthodox Christians

[1Tim215Mommy]

As an Antiochian Orthodox Archpriest and graduate of an Orthodox seminary, I find your comment very offensive. Many Eastern Orthodox Bishops are not violating the Faith of the Church. They are the divinely appointed leaders of the Church, not monastics. Some, not all, of whom are not teaching sound Orthodoxy.
It is not up to monastics to determine what is and what is not the True Faith. That authority belongs to the Bishops who are successors to the Apostles. The canons are very clear, monastics are to stay in their monasteries and are not to cause problems in the Church by challenging the authority of the Bishops or undermining the authority of the Pastor of a parish to take care of his flock by challenging his teaching or his practices if he is following the instructions of his Bishop.

Archpriest John W. Morris

I Apologize You Were Offended.

 

[Nine_Two]

And while talking with non-Orthodox is not a heresy, the heresy is when the Orthodox are willing to water down of the Orthodox faith and praxis, or teach things that are completely contrary to the Orthodox faith and praxis, in order to appeal in an accepting and loving manner to those who are not Orthodox in an effort to form some sort of religious union with the non-Orthodox.

The Orthodox understanding of Ecumenism is in line with the Great Commission. It neither waters down the faith or the praxis, nor leads to teaching things at odds with Orthodoxy.

The insular idea that we should have nothing to do with anyone who isn’t Orthodox, on the other hand, does.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Ecumenism as practiced by the Eastern Orthodox Church is not an heresy. I suggest that before you make an accusation like that you actually read some of the documents presented by Orthodox during ecumenical encounters.

Archpriest John W. Morris

This Comment Wasn’t Addressed Towards Me, But I Am Orthodox And I Have Participated In Ecumenical SErvices.

Our Priest Asked Us To Come With Him To A Roman Catholic Parish To Listen To Him Speak…We LOve Our Priest, It Seemed Innocent Enough So We Went To SUpport him.

The Roman Bishop Was There And We Prayed All Catholic Prayers, Some Of Which Directly Contradicted Our Orthodox Theology - Filioque: PrayeRs That Spoke ABout The Holy Spirit Proceeding From The FaTheR And The SoN eternally, But Our Priest Stood There Facing Us And Prayed Them All. Then He Got Up And Spoke About Him.How He Was Raised Anti-Catholic And Through Reading The Fathers Discovered That The Church Christ Established Was Indeed The Catholic Church So He BeCame Orthodox Rather Than Catholic To Appease His Family And SoonAll Orthodox Will Be Lucky Enougrh To Drop Anti-Catholic Stance And Become Catholic. He Told Everyone That Most Orthodox ChristiAns Are Very anti-Catholic (This Is Something I’ve Never Personally Witnessed).

This Was All Done WithTheFull Knowledge And Consent Of The Orthodox Bishop.

This Is The Type Of Ecumenism Practiced In The Orthodox Church. It Felt Really Wrong, But I’m Glad To Learn From You That It Doesn’t Fall Under The Heresy Of Ecumenism…What Does?

 

[searn77]

The Orthodox understanding of Ecumenism is in line with the Great Commission. It neither waters down the faith or the praxis, nor leads to teaching things at odds with Orthodoxy.

The insular idea that we should have nothing to do with anyone who isn’t Orthodox, on the other hand, does.

I absolutely agree. We just need the said Orthodox who venture into Ecumenical meetings to keep the Orthodox understanding of Ecumenism in mind, as there have been many instances when these Orthodox bishops that attend these meetings venture into the Ecumenical heresy. For example, there shouldn’t be Orthodox bishops giving Muslim leaders Korans as gifts,since the Koran is completely opposed to Orthodoxy.

 

[frjohnmorris]

This Comment Wasn’t Addressed Towards Me, But I Am Orthodox And I Have Participated In Ecumenical SErvices.

Our Priest Asked Us To Come With Him To A Roman Catholic Parish To Listen To Him Speak…We LOve Our Priest, It Seemed Innocent Enough So We Went To SUpport him.

The Roman Bishop Was There And We Prayed All Catholic Prayers, Some Of Which Directly Contradicted Our Orthodox Theology - Filioque: PrayeRs That Spoke ABout The Holy Spirit Proceeding From The FaTheR And The SoN eternally, But Our Priest Stood There Facing Us And Prayed Them All. Then He Got Up And Spoke About Him.How He Was Raised Anti-Catholic And Through Reading The Fathers Discovered That The Church Christ Established Was Indeed The Catholic Church So He BeCame Orthodox Rather Than Catholic To Appease His Family And SoonAll Orthodox Will Be Lucky Enougrh To Drop Anti-Catholic Stance And Become Catholic. He Told Everyone That Most Orthodox ChristiAns Are Very anti-Catholic (This Is Something I’ve Never Personally Witnessed).

This Was All Done WithTheFull Knowledge And Consent Of The Orthodox Bishop.

This Is The Type Of Ecumenism Practiced In The Orthodox Church. It Felt Really Wrong, But I’m Glad To Learn From You That It Doesn’t Fall Under The Heresy Of Ecumenism…What Does?

Normally Orthodox do not participate in so called ecumenical services. Our Antiochian Bishops and most other Orthodox Bishops forbid their clergy from participating in such events because of the problems that you mentioned. Some Orthodox Bishops allow limited participation in ecumenical prayers as an exercise of economy. However, there are very strict guidelines originally passed by SCOBA that are designed to prevent events like that you described. The Orthodox Priest who participated in the service you described obviously did not follow them. The Ecumenical Guidelines are currently being revised by the Ecumenical Committee of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in North and Central America to prevent such events in the future.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[Novocastrian]

This Comment Wasn’t Addressed Towards Me, But I Am Orthodox And I Have Participated In Ecumenical SErvices.

Our Priest Asked Us To Come With Him To A Roman Catholic Parish To Listen To Him Speak…We LOve Our Priest, It Seemed Innocent Enough So We Went To SUpport him.

The Roman Bishop Was There And We Prayed All Catholic Prayers, Some Of Which Directly Contradicted Our Orthodox Theology - Filioque: PrayeRs That Spoke ABout The Holy Spirit Proceeding From The FaTheR And The SoN eternally, But Our Priest Stood There Facing Us And Prayed Them All. Then He Got Up And Spoke About Him.How He Was Raised Anti-Catholic And Through Reading The Fathers Discovered That The Church Christ Established Was Indeed The Catholic Church So He BeCame Orthodox Rather Than Catholic To Appease His Family And SoonAll Orthodox Will Be Lucky Enougrh To Drop Anti-Catholic Stance And Become Catholic. He Told Everyone That Most Orthodox ChristiAns Are Very anti-Catholic (This Is Something I’ve Never Personally Witnessed).

This Was All Done WithTheFull Knowledge And Consent Of The Orthodox Bishop.

This Is The Type Of Ecumenism Practiced In The Orthodox Church. It Felt Really Wrong, But I’m Glad To Learn From You That It Doesn’t Fall Under The Heresy Of Ecumenism…What Does?

I can’t speak for Fr. John, but I’m pretty sure that almost all Orthodox clergy would recognise this as false ecumenism.

 

[frjohnmorris]

I can’t speak for Fr. John, but I’m pretty sure that almost all Orthodox clergy would recognise this as false ecumenism.

You are right. Our Antiochian Bishops would never allow such a thing. Ever since the horrible ecumenical service at the meeting of the World Council of Churches in 1991 in Canberra, Australia Eastern Orthodox have declined to participate in so called ecumenical worship. There was a pan-Orthodox meeting called by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Thessaloniki following this incident that decided that Orthodox would not participate in joint services with non-Orthodox at future meetings of the WCC. This principle would apply to the local level.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[Novocastrian]

You are right. Our Antiochian Bishops would never allow such a thing. Ever since the horrible ecumenical service at the meeting of the World Council of Churches in 1991 in Canberra, Australia Eastern Orthodox have declined to participate in so called ecumenical worship. There was a pan-Orthodox meeting called by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Thessaloniki following this incident that decided that Orthodox would not participate in joint services with non-Orthodox at future meetings of the WCC. This principle would apply to the local level.

Archpriest John W. Morris

I’m surprised that the Latin priest was allowed to behave as such. I think that when the Church of England is engaged in any kind of ecumenical worship/dialogue/prayer/charitable work with Eastern Christians the rule is that the filioque should not be used, etc.

 

[ScottEH]

I’m surprised that the Latin priest was allowed to behave as such. I think that when the Church of England is engaged in any kind of ecumenical worship/dialogue/prayer/charitable work with Eastern Christians the rule is that the filioque should not be used, etc.

I think you’re right. Using the Western version of the creed would probably be viewed as a provocation by Orthodox (and rightly so; the issue has never been resolved). I find the story to be a little hard to believe. What she describes isn’t Ecumenism; its syncretism. I don’t think any latin priest that I know who regularly interacts with Orthodox would do such a thing.

 

[ScottEH]

The problem is that OO accuse the Council of Chalcedon of Nestorianism which it was not. if you actually read the acts of the council, you will see that the declaration of Chalcedon, the 4th Ecumenical Council in 451, was based partially on the Tome of Leo, but also on the Letter of St. Cyril of Alexandria to Patriarch John of Antioch. Because of this misunderstanding, the 5th Ecumenical Council, Constantinople II in 553, made it clear that Chalcedon is to be interpreted in conformity with the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who was the chief foe of Nestorianism. Therefore, it is inaccurate to accuse the Council of Chalcedon of surrendering to Nestorianism.

Archpriest John W. Morris

I know, father, that it didn’t surrender to Nestorianism. I just think it is very unfortunate that the OO separated because of a misunderstanding. Because the Council at Ephesus was so recent in their minds, I think that they reacted to Chalcedon too hastily. They probably still had the heresy of Nestorius fresh on their minds, and couldn’t see the dangers of the other extreme on the christological spectrum. In any case, they still aren’t Monophysites.

 

[frjohnmorris]

I know, father, that it didn’t surrender to Nestorianism. I just think it is very unfortunate that the OO separated because of a misunderstanding. Because the Council at Ephesus was so recent in their minds, I think that they reacted to Chalcedon too hastily. They probably still had the heresy of Nestorius fresh on their minds, and couldn’t see the dangers of the other extreme on the christological spectrum. In any case, they still aren’t Monophysites.

Part of the problem was that the non-Chalcedonians were too quick to condemn Chalcedon. Another is that they did not consider the letter of St. Cyril of Alexandria to John of Antioch which admitted that one can believe the same thing, but use different language to express it. St.Cyril incorrectly attributed the statement “One nature of the Incarnate Logos,” to St. Athanasius. However, it came from the heretic Apollinaris of Laodicea. They also confused the term hypostasis used by the council to mean nature with persons. Thus they heard the council teaching that in Christ there are two persons. Even the 5th Ecumenical Council, Constantinople II in 553 which was meant to assure the non-Chalcedonians that Chalcedon must be interpreted in conformity with the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria did not motivate them to return to unity.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[frjohnmorris]

Bless, Father.

I understand fully what you are talking about, but it pains me to hear you speak of our Monastics in this way. I was taught that we are all keepers of the Faith, not just our Bishops. That doesn’t mean that we can go off and do our own thing, but at the same time No Bishop is above the Faith, or our Traditions. The Monasteries play an important part in keeping those Traditions and Faith. I think your warning of caution is good, but also at the same time we should be wary of placing our Bishops on too high a podium.

It is a terrible mistake to put monastics on too high a pedestal. Some monastics confuse their own ideas or the ideas of their Elder with the doctrine of the Church. Just because someone is a monastic does not mean that everything that they say is theologically sound. For example, a priest recently told me that he visited Mt. Athos and went to confession. The monk told him that God was mad with him because he trims his beard. Such teaching is nonsense and shows that that particular monk should not be allowed to hear confessions. Those monastics that advocate so called corrective Baptism for people received by Chrismation are wrong. I know of no other way to write it, but they are wrong and should not presume to interfere in such matters. If a person is received according to the instructions of the Bishop that person is completely Orthodox. I do not share your reverence for monasticism, because I have heard too many stories of unsound teaching coming from monasteries. Therefore, I am very leery of monastics especially those who think that they are superior to the married clergy or married laity.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[searn77]

Basically what you are against is ecumenism the heresy, a new word to me. I cannot agree with you more if ecumenism is done in that manner. I would say it is not ecumenism at all and we cannot go about in doing something at the expense of our own faith.

Ecumenism is basically a call to unity because this is what Christ wants of us. At least this is how the Catholic Church understands it. He bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.

I understand what you’re saying and agree with it but from the Orthodox POV. We believe that the Orthodox Church is one united Church however in history (and in the present) when heresies have attacked the Church this has resulted in not only separations of the heretics from the Orthodox, but also divisions between the Orthodox with other Orthodox. For example look at the situation of Antioch during the time of the Council of Nicea and you’ll see that there were two different Orthodox groups who at the time were not in communion with each other and yet today we recognize them both as being Orthodox. Yet the key understanding here is that the Arians of Antioch had separated themselves from the Orthodox Church by their false beliefs regarding Jesus. The Arians separating themselves from the Church doesn’t make the Church disunited as it was their own false beliefs that cast themselves out. The two groups in Antioch who were both united in faith but divided among themselves is what goes against our Lord’s command for unity. The canons of the Church are clear when dealing with clergy that openly teach heresy that they are to be cast away from the Church in order to save the Church from becoming misled.

This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

The divisions among those who try to follow Christ is truly a sad reality that we live in. We have to be careful of our words though because, from the Orthodox POV, we are not seeking to recover or reunite all of the Christian denominations into one “restored” single Church; rather we are seeking union with Christ in spirit and in truth in the Orthodox Church.

1. • prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”

The canons of the Orthodox Church do not permit common prayer with those who are not Orthodox because even though this would not mean that those praying in common have necessarily achieved full union, it is still participating in a religious union based on something other than truth. As Orthodox Christians we are called to stand firm in our faith. In order to pray and worship in unity we must be united. Until we are united we cannot pray in union. It’s saddening that we cannot pray and worship together and it’s not something that I take pride in. But as I stated before when I talked about by Pentecostal relative, I understand the importance of why I cannot pray with someone of a different faith.

1. • ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;

I’m not sure if I know what this means.

1. • dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;

What kind of dialogue? And what would be the purpose of this dialogue? In today’s age we have had plenty of meetings with different Christian denominations and there are plenty of resources to understand what other Christian denominations believe. If we are just having meetings to discuss issues that we agree on, then what’s the point? Christ did not make a commission for us to go out into the world, meet different religious leaders, and discuss what we have in common. He said “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;” (Matt 28:19-20) These ecumenical meetings have been going on for decades and, while we have somewhat come to better understand different religions and denominations, these meetings have shown little or no fruit in bringing people into the Church. So now that we better understand other denominations and religions, we should lovingly seek these people out to come into communion with God in his Church, rather than friendly seeking these people out in order to have meetings about our common beliefs.

 

[searn77]

BTW, the level of ecumenism varies according to the belief of the church that we are dialoging with. Obviously there is no ecumenism with the Oneness Pentecostal as the chasm is too big to bridge.

But between Catholic, Orthodox and some of the Protestant high churches, there are at least some common grounds that can be broken.

Yes we have common ground but we also have our differences. And yes, some of these differences are semantic, but other differences are not. These have been discussed at plenty of meetings between the Orthodox and Catholics. What is currently being achieved by us coming together at these meetings? Neither side is willing to give up any of their beliefs in order to achieve this unity. I’m Orthodox so I’m obviously coming from the POV that the Orthodox Church is correct. These meetings aren’t bringing anybody to Christ through the Orthodox Church. Our differences have been laid out. The only thing that is currently being done at these meetings is that we are ignoring our differences and coming together in a sort of semi-union where we can pray and worship together but not partake in Holy Communion together. And from what I have heard from Catholic, Orthodox, and Non-Chalcedonian sources is that if you’re a laymen of one of these three Churches in the Middle East, you will most likely be accepted to receive Holy Communion from any of the three Churches.

This sort of union where we ignore our differences is not the kind of union our Lord has in mind; we are to be united in spirit and in truth. That doesn’t mean that we are to be hateful and unloving to our neighbors. We can even recognize the good that people in these other Churches have done (I have a great respect and admiration of Teresa of Calcutta) as Jesus even did with the good Samaritan. But we cannot unite with others in spirit when we are not united in truth.

 

[ScottEH]

Part of the problem was that the non-Chalcedonians were too quick to condemn Chalcedon. Another is that they did not consider the letter of St. Cyril of Alexandria to John of Antioch which admitted that one can believe the same thing, but use different language to express it. St.Cyril incorrectly attributed the statement “One nature of the Incarnate Logos,” to St. Athanasius. However, it came from the heretic Apollinaris of Laodicea. They also confused the term hypostasis used by the council to mean nature with persons. Thus they heard the council teaching that in Christ there are two persons. Even the 5th Ecumenical Council, Constantinople II in 553 which was meant to assure the non-Chalcedonians that Chalcedon must be interpreted in conformity with the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria did not motivate them to return to unity.

Archpriest John W. Morris

I had never heard that bit about St. Cyril misquoting St. Athanasius. Interesting. Maybe that helps explain the actions undertaken by Dioscorus leading up to Chalcedon

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes we have common ground but we also have our differences. And yes, some of these differences are semantic, but other differences are not. These have been discussed at plenty of meetings between the Orthodox and Catholics. What is currently being achieved by us coming together at these meetings? Neither side is willing to give up any of their beliefs in order to achieve this unity. I’m Orthodox so I’m obviously coming from the POV that the Orthodox Church is correct. These meetings aren’t bringing anybody to Christ through the Orthodox Church. Our differences have been laid out. The only thing that is currently being done at these meetings is that we are ignoring our differences and coming together in a sort of semi-union where we can pray and worship together but not partake in Holy Communion together. And from what I have heard from Catholic, Orthodox, and Non-Chalcedonian sources is that if you’re a laymen of one of these three Churches in the Middle East, you will most likely be accepted to receive Holy Communion from any of the three Churches.

This sort of union where we ignore our differences is not the kind of union our Lord has in mind; we are to be united in spirit and in truth. That doesn’t mean that we are to be hateful and unloving to our neighbors. We can even recognize the good that people in these other Churches have done (I have a great respect and admiration of Teresa of Calcutta) as Jesus even did with the good Samaritan. But we cannot unite with others in spirit when we are not united in truth.

I don’t believe we should give up in meeting together.

I disagree that the dialogues are ignoring the differences of stance between each church accordingly.

Even though ecumenism hopes that we may unite ultimately, that objective is obviously not possible now but rather to dialogue, collaborate and coming together on terms that are acceptable to both parties. Ecumenism (striving for unity) is not against Jesus’ desire but it is what he wants for his followers. When we encourage ecumenism we simply are obeying this command of Jesus and so too are meeting together.

 

[Novocastrian]

I had never heard that bit about St. Cyril misquoting St. Athanasius. Interesting. Maybe that helps explain the actions undertaken by Dioscorus leading up to Chalcedon

Possibly, but I’m not sure. I wonder if it might have more to do with the fact that Theodoret outlives Cyril. The Formula of Reunion, although ostensibly a compromise between John of Antioch and Cyril, seems more like an understanding between Theodoret and Cyril to me, and one which the Alexandrian Church was only (just!) willing to accept on the basis of Cyril’s own personal authority. With Cyril out of the picture, there was no restraining influence on the anti-Theodoret party in Alexandria.

Then again, I’m definitely not an expert…

 

[JackieO123]

One phrase to describe what I’ve seen in this thread: Cats and dogs.

 

[frjohnmorris]

And yet, when I referenced Fr. Harrison’s article “Why I Did Not Convert to Eastern Orthodoxy” which mentions the ethnic considerations, the objection was downplayed in another thread.

Seems to me that the fact that most of the world is not Greek or Russian or whatever sort of limits the Orthodox in their ability to “make disciples of all nations”, doesn’t it?

And the fact that they have never gotten out of this mindset suggests that they are a bit like the members of the circumcision group in the book of Acts who weren’t too pleased to hear that the Gentiles were accepting Christ.

A lot of Orthodox have gotten out of that mindset. It all depends on the parish. The Antiochian Archdiocese is filed with coverts to Orthodoxy. Most of our priests are converts. My parish welcomes visitors. We have whole parishes that converted to Orthodoxy through the Antiochian Archdiocese. There was a time when Roman Catholic parishes had a very ethnic flavor. In Canton, Ohio, there is a Catholic Church that used to be the German Catholic Church, one that used to be the Irish Catholic Church and one that used to be the Italian Catholic Church.

Fr. John Morris

 

[Casilda]

A lot of Orthodox have gotten out of that mindset. It all depends on the parish. The Antiochian Archdiocese is filed with coverts to Orthodoxy. Most of our priests are converts. My parish welcomes visitors. We have whole parishes that converted to Orthodoxy through the Antiochian Archdiocese. There was a time when Roman Catholic parishes had a very ethnic flavor. In Canton, Ohio, there is a Catholic Church that used to be the German Catholic Church, one that used to be the Irish Catholic Church and one that used to be the Italian Catholic Church.

Fr. John Morris

I have to comment on this, Father. Firstly, I do agree that Antiochian parishes do welcome visitors first off better than other jurisdiction parishes. However, I do find that most of those converts you are referring to (a mostly convert jurisdiction) are essentially anti-Catholic. After several years of inquiry at various parishes (up to 3 hours away even) and over a year of catechesis listening to my fellow catechumens (one who has subsequently been chrismated) refer to Catholics in an uncharitable manner, for no reason other than hatred. It is as if I am hearing a demon when I hear such hatred. I instantly look towards the Orthodox priest to see/hear his reaction and there has never been any. So Catholic bashing is allowed/permissible? I love all my Christian brothers and sisters, regardless of where they are sitting Sunday morning (or Saturday). Most are on a difficult journey and dont need to be attacked by a fellow believer.

Secondly, about the situation in Canton with German, Italian and Irish Catholic churches, I have lived in various places in the US and have never come across an ethnically Catholic church that was unwelcoming to another group. They may have been at one time (during the influx of immigrants during the Industrial Revolution) but even in the once divided town I am in now, these groups have been intermarrying and now homogeneous.

I had to comment on that because several Orthodox priests we know do the same thing of citing Catholic examples, but they are either outdated or part of the urban-legend-type falsehoods that have plagued Roman Catholicism since…the schism?