For Eastern Orthodox Christians

[Reuben_J]

Well, I can’t really explain “why,” because it does vary. However, even though I’m a baptized Greek Orthodox, the G.O. parishioners I have met/known over the years have been so unwelcoming to me because I am not Greek. When they ask if I am, and I say no, they basically look down their nose at me, as if I don’t belong, which is how I feel and only a slight part of why I’m converting/transitioning to Catholicism. Now, most of the G.O. (not all) have been so kind and loving towards my parents, especially my Mom, because she left the Catholic Church completely to join the G.O. one. I know this all sounds contradictory and somewhat confusing, trust me, I know, but with the G.O. I know/have met, they absolutely hate those who aren’t Greek. Note, I am not saying all, because it isn’t all, but it is most.

My experience was with the Ukrainian Orthodox. We were practically being chased out of the church by their priest when a group of us, young people that time, entering the church to pray. A burly priest approached us, asking, “Who are you? Where do you come from?” We said we are Catholics and just wanted to pray. The next scene was totally unexpected. In a booming voice this huge man said, “Get out! Get out of here!” We were so shocked and as we exited the door, he closed it and we heard a sharp click of the door being locked, probably, from the inside.

I swear I would never go into that church again. And after long years, I still remember it now and prayed that may his soul rest in peace if he had departed and if he is retired, the incident happened a long time already, may the peace of the lord be upon him.

 

[thequietsinger]

That has not been my experience. The Greeks have always received me kindly, especially at the Ephraimite monasteries.

And that’s wonderful! I’m not saying all Greeks are like that, but from my own personal experiences, the ones I know are.

 

[thequietsinger]

I had the same experience with the Greeks. I found the Russians to be much more open to non Russian converts, which was surprising to me, and to their credit.

I’m very sorry to hear that you had to experience what I have. I don’t know if you were/are in the same situation or not, but either way, I know it’s not pleasant. I’ve not met a Russian Orthodox before, but I’ll take your word for it! People can surprise us at times!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Laughable. Rome for centuries proselytized in Orthodox lands.

Which centuries were these?

A map with the same color scheme wouldn’t look too flattering for your church either. According to wikipedia there are 42 Countries where Roman Catholicism is 1% of the population or under (including Russia and China, meaning that there would be humongous grey areas on your map too), and the population of these countries combined is equal to around 2.5 billion people.

So, despite the fact that Catholicism is four times larger than Orthodoxy, the maps would look similar? No.

However, all your endless debates with LionHeart and others over this council or that canon or Photius, etc. aside, the 30,000-foot view of the matter is still this: Catholicism has achieved far more than Orthodoxy with regard to the Great Commission, and since Jesus is the builder of the one Church, I judge that He has determined to build more from Rome than from Constantinople or Antioch, etc. It is clear where to find the center of the Christian Church.

 

[thequietsinger]

My experience was with the Ukrainian Orthodox. We were practically being chased out of the church by their priest when a group of us, young people that time, entering the church to pray. A burly priest approached us, asking, “Who are you? Where do you come from?” We said we are Catholics and just wanted to pray. The next scene was totally unexpected. In a booming voice this huge man said, “Get out! Get out of here!” We were so shocked and as we exited the door, he closed it and we heard a sharp click of the door being locked, probably, from the inside.

I swear I would never go into that church again. And after long years, I still remember it now and prayed that may his soul rest in peace if he had departed and if he is retired, the incident happened a long time already, may the peace of the lord be upon him.

Wow, I must say it’s not gone that far before. That is so terrible though! I mean, I don’t see where you would have done anything wrong. I wouldn’t go back either, and that’s another reason why I never went back to the one I used to live by. The people and Priest weren’t welcoming at all towards me, and I just couldn’t take it. I pray that his soul is at peace, as well.

I went to Eucharistic Adoration in a Catholic Church a few months back, and my Priest there was so happy and excited that I was going to go/went, even though I hadn’t (still haven’t) converted yet. And that’s another thing about Catholics; all the ones I have met and know, and most of you guys on here, have all been so welcoming to me, and it’s something I’ve never felt in a Church/faith before.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Which centuries were these?

The Jesuits were famous for their proselytism in Orthodox lands. The decision to apply canonical akriveia instead of oikonomia and to baptize Latins seeking to be brought into the Orthodox Catholic faith, which was made by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the 1700s was made specifically in response to Jesuit proselytism in the Middle East.

However, all your endless debates with LionHeart and others over this council or that canon or Photius, etc. aside, the 30,000-foot view of the matter is still this: Catholicism has achieved far more than Orthodoxy with regard to the Great Commission, and since Jesus is the builder of the one Church, I judge that He has determined to build more from Rome than from Constantinople or Antioch, etc. It is clear where to find the center of the Christian Church.

And what of when the Nestorian Church was enormous in comparison to the Latins? Furthermore, by this logic, the Protestants have also accomplished great things, because they have baptized many nations, even some in which the Latins never got a strong foothold. But numbers do not matter a priori as an indicator of where the Church is, because according to the multitudes of Fathers (St. Augustine included), baptisms performed outside of the Church are inefficacious, as salvific grace is concerned. To assess then, where the great commission actually is carried out, one must first discern where the orthodox and Catholic faith is taught, as baptisms performed out of this possess no saving efficacy. The numbers game cannot excuse one from seeking out what the truth faith is, for if one places his faith in numbers, he places not his faith in Christ.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Which centuries were these?

The Jesuits were famous for their proselytism in Orthodox lands. The decision to apply canonical akriveia instead of oikonomia and to baptize Latins seeking to be brought into the Orthodox Catholic faith in the 1700s was made specifically in response to Jesuit proselytism in the Middle East.

 

[Randy_Carson]

And what of when the Nestorian Church was enormous in comparison to the Latins?

So, are Catholics heretics, schismatics, or both?

However, the more important question is: how did the matter end? If it is your contention that Catholicism is in error, then wouldn’t one expect to see more fruit of the Spirit pouring forth from Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc? If these are the true churches?

• Have you held an Ecumenical Council in last 1,000 years that I’m unaware of? If not, why not?
• When was the last time a Patriarch held a World Youth Day like the one in Brazil with 3.7 million attendees?
• Why is it that the Pope is known the world over even by non-Catholics, but no one outside your church can name a single patriarch?
• Has a patriarch written a best-seller recently? If not, why not? Why are people interested in what John Paul, Benedict or Francis have to say even if they aren’t Catholic?

Now, I am conscious of the fact that an argument of this type can trend toward an “all or nothing” conclusion, and that is not my position at all. As a dutiful Catholic, I’m supposed to see you as one of the good guys.

But for the sake of this argument, you’re the Church and I’m the Schismatic. Okay…how come you haven’t made disciples of all nations, yet, Church? You’ve been at it for 2,000 years…

Furthermore, by this logic, the Protestants have also accomplished great things, because they have baptized many nations, even some in which the Latins never got a strong foothold.

Yes, they have. Not 1.2 billion, but they have had some successes, and I have some theories, but I accept your point. Um…have you guys done any better in those same places?

But numbers do not matter a priori as an indicator of where the Church is, because according to the multitudes of Fathers (St. Augustine included), baptisms performed outside of the Church are inefficacious, as salvific grace is concerned. To assess then, where the great commission actually is carried out, one must first discern where the orthodox and Catholic faith is taught, as baptisms performed out of this possess no saving efficacy. The numbers game cannot excuse one from seeking out what the truth faith is, for if one places his faith in numbers, he places not his faith in Christ.

So, you don’t accept trinitarian baptism as valid if it is not performed in a Catholic or Orthodox Church? If you do, I apologize for the misunderstanding. If you don’t, doesn;t this strike you as being somewhat akin to the Judaizers insistence that the Gentiles be circumcised?

Numbers may not prove anything…but then again, maybe they do. A tree is known by its fruit. Where is your fruit, Church?

 

[dronald]

So, despite the fact that Catholicism is four times larger than Orthodoxy, the maps would look similar? No.

I wonder what Paul would write about both of your bickering.

Anyways, I’ll give my experience that happened this past summer as I was looking into Apostolic Churches.

There was a Greek festival and my girlfriend at the time (now fiance) decided to check it out and eat some sweet Greek food. Little did we know it was being run by a Greek Orthodox Church so I asked her if we should check it out. We both went inside and were knocked off our feet at how beautiful the place was. One of the men that runs the Church (not the Priest equivalent but someone else involved; forgive my ignorance of Orthodoxy) approached us and explained everything on the walls and on the roof. He explained every picture and was extremely friendly, I absolutely loved everything about the Church. My only issue was that I could barely understand him, and I got looking around and noticed everything was written in English and Greek. I asked the man if the services are done in Greek and he said much of them are.

I never did go back because I don’t think it’s a Church that could work for us due to the language barrier, but I did love the people we met.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wonder what Paul would write about both of your bickering.

It might bring back memories of his disagreement with Barnabas.

 

[dronald]

It might bring back memories of his disagreement with Barnabas.

Yes, sometimes the actions of the men in the Church aren’t nearly as valuable as their writings.

Now excuse me while I go run and hide.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No community is perfect and sometimes it takes a while to get used to it. I will be honest in my church I only know one guy (my sponsor) whom I can genuinely talk with but thats not to say my church community was unwelcoming, my priest has been a great guide.

 

[Cavaradossi]

So, are Catholics heretics, schismatics, or both?

I consider our faiths to be different—let’s leave it at that. There is no need to swing around such harsh words as schismatic and heretic, especially when using them is in violation of forum rules.

However, the more important question is: how did the matter end? If it is your contention that Catholicism is in error, then wouldn’t one expect to see more fruit of the Spirit pouring forth from Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc? If these are the true churches?

The Holy Spirit has poured Its grace abundantly upon us. This is how Geronda Ephraim managed to open 17 monasteries in America alone since 1995, starting from nothing but six monks in the desert of Arizona. The working of the Holy Spirit is how the Church in Russia has tripled its number of parishes and increased its number of monasteries nearly eightfold in just twenty years.

Have you held an Ecumenical Council in last 1,000 years that I’m unaware of? If not, why not?

We have had no need to call any, because the major heresies of the second millennium were adequately refuted by pan-Orthodox synods.

When was the last time a Patriarch held a World Youth Day like the one in Brazil with 3.7 million attendees?

You mean an event like the one in Brazil, where the Pope was greeted by dancing bishops (this is strictly forbidden by the Canons), and where laymen distributed the Eucharist from plastic cups? No thank you; I think rather that we shall stick to the Catholic tradition of worship which was handed down to us from the Holy Fathers, which does not involve such things. Furthermore, the goal of worship is not to be relevant or to excite the passions (God forbid), but it is to participate in the inestimable privilege of worshiping God, for the increase of faith, and for the quenching of the passions, which is why contemporary music such as that used at WYD would also be unacceptable to us.

Why is it that the Pope is known the world over even by non-Catholics, but no one outside your church can name a single patriarch?

By this very criterion, the papacy would then have been false but 1000 years ago when the Pope was not known world over. He is known world over, because he controls a vast organization with an immense amount of wealth, and because of the increased speed of communication we now have in the modern era.

Has a patriarch written a best-seller recently? If not, why not? Why are people interested in what John Paul, Benedict or Francis have to say even if they aren’t Catholic?

By this criterion, I suppose we should also believe that the Holy Fathers (like St. Basil, St. Gregory the Theologian, etc.) are also irrelevant, because their works are not best sellers. This question, frankly, reflects a consumerist mentality in such a way that I cannot even think of a proper answer to it besides pointing out that consumerism is inimical to the Spirit of Christianity. The spoken word is only one component of our kerygma. We cannot truly convert others without first acquiring illumination in Christ, and having the light of Christ shine forth from us. It is for this reason that St. Seraphim of Sarov is reported once to have said, “acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved.”

Now, I am conscious of the fact that an argument of this type can trend toward an “all or nothing” conclusion, and that is not my position at all. As a dutiful Catholic, I’m supposed to see you as one of the good guys.

But for the sake of this argument, you’re the Church and I’m the Schismatic. Okay…how come you haven’t made disciples of all nations, yet, Church? You’ve been at it for 2,000 years…

Why have you not made disciples of all nations yet?

So, you don’t accept trinitarian baptism as valid if it is not performed in a Catholic or Orthodox Church? If you do, I apologize for the misunderstanding. If you don’t, doesn;t this strike you as being somewhat akin to the Judaizers insistence that the Gentiles be circumcised?

No, the Holy Fathers are all quite clear that baptisms performed outside of the Church are not salvific. I am aware that Roman Catholic ecclesiology after Vatican II teaches that heretical and schismatic baptisms are salvific, but we do not accept this, holding to the older patristic model whereby if one in heresy or schism is saved, he is saved in spite of his baptism outside of the Church, and not in virtue of it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I consider our faiths to be different—let’s leave it at that. There is no need to swing around such harsh words as schismatic and heretic, especially when using them is in violation of forum rules.

Probably best.

The Holy Spirit has poured Its grace abundantly upon us. This is how Geronda Ephraim managed to open 17 monasteries in America alone since 1995, starting from nothing but six monks in the desert of Arizona. The working of the Holy Spirit is how the Church in Russia has tripled its number of parishes and increased its number of monasteries nearly eightfold in just twenty years.

It’s nice that they are having some success. I was a candidate at a Trappist monastery many years ago, so I’m always happy to hear of new vocations.

We have had no need to call any, because the major heresies of the second millennium were adequately refuted by pan-Orthodox synods.

Either that or no Patriarch has the authority to call a Council. But okay.

You mean an event like the one in Brazil, where the Pope was greeted by dancing bishops (this is strictly forbidden by the Canons), and where laymen distributed the Eucharist from plastic cups? No thank you; I think rather that we shall stick to the Catholic tradition of worship which was handed down to us from the Holy Fathers, which does not involve such things. Furthermore, the goal of worship is not to be relevant or to excite the passions (God forbid), but it is to participate in the inestimable privilege of worshiping God, for the increase of faith, and for the quenching of the passions, which is why contemporary music such as that used at WYD would also be unacceptable to us.

Yeah, we certainly wouldn’t want young people getting fired up for Jesus or anything.

By this very criterion, the papacy would then have been false but 1000 years ago when the Pope was not known world over. He is known world over, because he controls a vast organization with an immense amount of wealth, and because of the increased speed of communication we now have in the modern era.

Right. In the old days, no one had a clue that there was a Bishop in Rome who occasionally called councils, etc. Would that explain why the eastern Church stopped showing up? We wondered what happened…

By this criterion, I suppose we should also believe that the Holy Fathers (like St. Basil, St. Gregory the Theologian, etc.) are also irrelevant, because their works are not best sellers.

Or is it simply because you can read their works online for free? :compcoff:

This question, frankly, reflects a consumerist mentality in such a way that I cannot even think of a proper answer to it besides pointing out that consumerism is inimical to the Spirit of Christianity.

Could it be that none of the Patriarchs have written anything important in recent memory? Or that very few people care what any of them have to say?

The spoken word is only one component of our kerygma. We cannot truly convert others without first acquiring illumination in Christ, and having the light of Christ shine forth from us. It is for this reason that St. Seraphim of Sarov is reported once to have said, “acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved.”

Yes. Which is why I’ll probably be discontinuing further discussion with EO in the very near future.

Why have you not made disciples of all nations yet?

Because the Russians wouldn’t let us in?

But seriously, I think it is fair to say that by just about any measure, the Catholic Church has been THE agent of Christianity throughout the world for 2,000 years.

No, the Holy Fathers are all quite clear that baptisms performed outside of the Church are not salvific. I am aware that Roman Catholic ecclesiology after Vatican II teaches that heretical and schismatic baptisms are salvific, but we do not accept this, holding to the older patristic model whereby if one in heresy or schism is saved, he is saved in spite of his baptism outside of the Church, and not in virtue of it.

Why does this not surprise me?

Okay. I’ll follow the example of St. Seraphim of Sarov as well as St. Paul who wrote:

Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14).

You may have the last word. I am out.

:tiphat:

 

[RyanBlack]

You may have the last word. I am out.

That’s good, since you seem to have nothing but contempt for our Orthodox brothers and sisters, and your continual anti-Orthodox polemic reflects very poorly on us Catholics, and in no way reflects the mindset of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s good, since you seem to have nothing but contempt for our Orthodox brothers and sisters, and your continual anti-Orthodox polemic reflects very poorly on us Catholics, and in no way reflects the mindset of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

I encourage you to engage some of the Orthodox brothers here in dialogue, Ryan, and see how far you get.

But remember the ground rules: they are the true Church, you are the schismatic.

Have fun.

 

[RyanBlack]

I encourage you to engage some of the Orthodox brothers here in dialogue, Ryan, and see how far you get.

But remember the ground rules: they are the true Church, you are the schismatic.

Have fun.

You might try changing your approach. Some of the insults you’ve been spewing are nothing but nasty polemic, and can’t reasonably be considered attempts at dialogue.

Furthermore, are you not operating from the position that the Catholic Church is the true Church and that the Orthodox are in schism? It’s quite clear that you are.

 

[Rdunbar123]

Yes. I Have Been Told Again And Again About These Demographics. I Am Unconvinced.

Jesus Commissioned The Apostles To Make Disciples Of All Nations. This Was Done By Rome, Not By Constantinople. Your Expansion Has Occurred Largely After Catholics Already Opened The Mission Field. Except In Your Own Countries Of Course Where Rome May Not Feel The Need To Send Missionaries.

This Map Shows The Distribution Of Orthodox…The Darker The Blue The Greater The Percentage Of Orthodox. Lots of Light Blue And Grey On This Map.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ry.png/450px-Eastern_Orthodoxy_by_country.png

yes numbers win, more Roman Catholics, must be correct

 

[Novocastrian]

I encourage you to engage some of the Orthodox brothers here in dialogue, Ryan, and see how far you get.

But remember the ground rules: they are the true Church, you are the schismatic.

Have fun.

I could say the same thing to you!

 

[Randy_Carson]

You might try changing your approach. Some of the insults you’ve been spewing are nothing but nasty polemic, and can’t reasonably be considered attempts at dialogue.

Furthermore, are you not operating from the position that the Catholic Church is the true Church and that the Orthodox are in schism? It’s quite clear that you are.

Ryan-

Prior to a few months ago, I rarely ventured into the Non-Catholic Religions subforum, but you can see that I have been active at CAF for a long time. However, I decided to see what may be happening over here, so I jumped into some threads with the Baha’i, some pagans, some Lutherans, the EO, etc.

Prior to this time, I would have characterized myself as being very opposed to Lutheranism and favorably disposed toward the Orthodox. After all, the Catechism describes our relationship with them this way:

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

However, after quite a bit of “dialogue” with Lutherans and the EO (as well as a bit of outside reading), it has become clear to me that Catholics are much closer to Lutherans (or vice-versa) than I ever realized and that we are much further from the Orthodox than I would have guessed. The Orthodox do NOT share the sentiments expressed in the quote above. As Cavaradossi expressed the situation a few posts ago:

I consider our faiths to be different—let’s leave it at that. There is no need to swing around such harsh words as schismatic and heretic, especially when using them is in violation of forum rules.

Different faiths? Really?

Let me conclude by saying that I do not hold any contempt for the Orthodox nor do I have any desire to engage in “anti-Orthodox polemic”. However, I am asking hard questions because, duh, I am a Catholic who expects others to be Catholic, also, in accordance with Christ’s original intent for the Church as I understand it.

Naturally, I EXPECT them to argue vigorously for their POV. This does not bother me…isn’t that what an apologetics forum is for?