For Eastern Orthodox: Unleavened Bread

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Because dork is nicer than what I was going to say. The point is: Don’t post things that are demonstrably false with reference to what the Armenians themselves say (i.e., their own justification/reasoning for using unleavened bread), no matter what the source. The fact that you’re posting some Chalcedonian very nice guy only makes it all the more obvious that it is mere Chalcedonian polemic that does not add anything to the issue under discussion.
Rome today uses the Synoptic Gospels account of the Last Supper as their basis for using unleavened bread. They did not have this as the basis for the first 8 or 9 centuries though. Do you now understand why I don’t necessarily accept Armenian reasoning at face value over the research of a historian?
 
I’m sorry, but what does Rome’s basis for its own use of unleavened bread have to do with the Armenian reasoning for doing the same, insofar as we can know it based on what their own Catholicos said in the 7th-8th century? I personally don’t care why Rome does anything, only that your source claimed that the Armenians do so out of an allegiance to monophysitism when that is clearly contradicted by the Armenians themselves.
 
I must disagree. I agree that the lambs were slaughtered on the 14th, according both to the Law and the interpretations of the Law found in the Talmud. But then this poses problems for the assertion that the day of unleavened bread must refer to the 15th, simply because this is how the term is used in the Law, because Luke 22:7, quoted by St. John, states that the day of unleavened bread is the day on which the passover must be killed. This should already give us a clue that Jews by the time of Christ had come to regard 14th Nissan and the special events attached to it as being the first day of unleavened bread…
I think I didn’t communicate what I intended clearly (and I think you are misunderstanding Chrysostom’s argument). I agree that when the Synoptics (e.g. Luke) speak of the “Day of Unleavened Bread,” they are referring to the 14th of the month. HOWEVER, Moses in the Pentateuch says that the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is the 15th (Leviticus 23:6). How can this possibly be reconciled? As you said, the 14th was the day of on which the leaven was cast out and the paschal lambs were sacrificed, so it came to be identified as the beginning. Chrysostom (as well as Augustine) was a biblical commentator rather than a rabbi so he valued the word of Scripture chief of all, and Scripture explicitly states that the lamb was sacrificed on the 14th while the Day of Unleavened Bread was the 15th. It would therefore seem to be a contradiction if the Evangelist identified both as the same day. THEREFORE, Chrysostom is explaining how it is not a contradiction. When he says it was the day before “that feast,” he means that it is the day before the 15th, which is the date of “the feast” given in Lev. 23:6. This is the 14th on which the lamb was sacrificed, as it says in Luke 22:7.

If you think instead that he is trying to argue that the day is the 13th, continue reading. He says,

And this one calls the day before the feast of unleavened bread, speaking of the time when they came to Him, and another says on this wise, “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed;” by the word “came,” meaning this, it was near, it was at the doors, making mention plainly of that evening. For they began with the evening, wherefore also each adds, when the passover was killed.

He is not saying that it is the day before the paschal sacrifice. He is saying it is the day before the 15th, i.e., the 14th day, the day on which the paschal lamb was sacrificed. He explicitly says that the paschal lamb was killed that evening (on which the Last Supper was celebrated).

Finally, he states in a later homily in the same series that Jesus kept the Passover on the correct day, being obedient to the law (and he says the same in our Homily 81: “But wherefore did He keep the passover? To indicate by all things unto the last day, that He is not opposed to the law.”). He says rather that the Jews were the ones who kept the Passover on the wrong day. I do not agree with this solution, but he is explicit that Jesus observed the Passover on the correct day. It is best to assume that an author’s views are coherent and not obviously contradictory if it can be avoided.
I disagree with the grammatical argument here. Had St. Augustine intended to convey that the festival simply was in force, rather than that it had begun to be in force, it seems to me that he could have simply used the perfect/preterite ‘egerunt,’ and elected not to use the verb coepio at all.
The important thing is not what Augustine could have written, but what he meant by what he did write. You could easily go through every sentence I have ever posted on this board and give me a way to much more clearly and directly communicate what I intended to. No writer, even one as eloquent as St. Augustine, will always write as clearly as someone thinks he could have. I do not believe the (Schaff?) translation of the passage is literal as he says, “it was the commencement of the days,” whereas the Latin is different. Augustine says uses the pluperfect (“more perfect”) tense, expressing that the days had commenced at some indefinite point prior to the Jews refusing to enter the Praetorium. The use of the verb “begun” does not mean that they had only just begun. Rather, being pluperfect, it means that they “already had begun.” For example, we could say that a child refused to play with his toys, because he had begun to go through adolescence. This statement would not in any way imply that the child had only just (that same year/month/day/hour/minute) entered into adolescence, that his voice had just dropped or anything of that sort. Same thing here. In John’s account of the Gospel, we know that it was already morning at the time of John 18:28, so it could not be the case that the feast had just begun, whether that day means the 14th and 15th, since days for began in the evening for the Jews or else they began at midnight. Nevertheless, in all likelihood, Augustine intended the Days of Unleavened Bread to begin on the eve of the 15th as it says in Exodus: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even , ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even." It could hardly be concluded that Augustine believed the Crucifixion occurred on the 14th from this passage.
 
Thank you as well for your follow-up on the Chagigah, Cavaradossi. I don’t know how even to begin reading the Talmud so I will defer to others on that. However, for the quotation you provided, it is speaking of the offering for the Feast of Tabernacles rather than the Feast of Azymes. Do you think that there might be different rules for different feasts? That is just a possible suggestion.

Whatever the case, and regardless of the question of azymes, I would like to find an explanation of John 18:28 that fits in with a 15th-day Crucifixion since that would be the easiest way to harmonize the Gospel accounts. I do not think those people who say that all three synoptics got the date wrong on one hand or that John deliberately gave the wrong date on the other hold to an acceptable opinion. If the “passover” in question were the Chagigah, that would allow us to avoid something excessively complicated like a two-calendar hypothesis or something ridiculous like Chrysosom’s “the Jew’s forgot about the Passover meal” hypothesis.

Whatever the case, the Jews intended to eat something. It could not have been the seder meal because that was in the evening (whether preceding or following the verse), as you seem to acknowledge. I don’t think the sacrifice you are referring to is the most likely (though possible) candidate since you have said it was an optional sacrifice. One thing to consider is that even if a particular sacrifice could be offered at another time, that does not mean that the Jews would not wish to remain clean to avoid the inconvenience of having to abstain from their ministry for the whole day. After all, different sacrifices were going on throughout the festival week. Therefore, something would not have to be obligatory to be a candidate for the “passover” of John 18:28.

This is a question I will have to read more about. I have heard that Brant Pitre (who wrote a popular apologetical book Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist) is releasing a longer and more academic book that will address these issues.
 
I’m sorry, but what does Rome’s basis for its own use of unleavened bread have to do with the Armenian reasoning for doing the same, insofar as we can know it based on what their own Catholicos said in the 7th-8th century? I personally don’t care why Rome does anything, only that your source claimed that the Armenians do so out of an allegiance to monophysitism when that is clearly contradicted by the Armenians themselves.
I agree with Dzheremi. He provided an article which gave a quote suggesting the Armenian use of unleavened bread at the time that dates from the Sixth Century. If the dating is correct, that would suggest that the use of unleavened bread was already seen as distinctively Armenian and so the practice would already have been firmly established for some time. While the (Latin) Catholic dictionary you quoted disagrees, it is possible they, and the authority they cite, are mistaken on this point. The claim seems a little absurd as well that the use of azymens was a totally novel practice that was imposed for the first time ever at a council long after the schism in order to reinforce their “Monophysite doctrine.”
 
St Cyprian, did he use wine without water added?

newadvent.org/fathers/050662.htm

"Hear what took place in my presence and with myself as witness. It happened that some parents were fleeing; and acting imprudently because of their fear, they left an infant daughter in the care of a nurse. The nurse turned the abandoned child over to the magistrates. In the presence of the idol where the people were gathering, and because she was not, on account of her age, able to eat meat, they gave her bread mixed with wine, which was itself left over after the sacrifice offered by those who are perishing *. Afterwards the mother recovered her daughter. But the girl was no more able to speak and point out the crime that had been committed than she had before been able to understand and prevent it.

"It came about through ignorance, therefore, that the mother brought the child into our presence when we were offering the Sacrifice. The girl mingled with the saints [Jurgens: the term -cum sanctis- applies to the Christian congregation]; and then, growing impatient of our prayers and petitions, was at one moment shaken with weeping and at another began to be tossed about by the violent excitement of her mind. As if by the compulsion of a torturer, the soul of that child of still tender years confessed the awareness of the deed by such signs as it could.

“When the solemnities were completed, however, and the deacon began to offer the chalice to those present, and when her turn came among the rest of those receiving, the little girl, with an instinct of the divine majesty, turned her face away, compressed her mouth with resisting lips, and refused the cup. The deacon persisted, however; and although she was resisting, he poured some into her mouth from the Sacrament in the cup. The result was that she began to choke and to vomit. The Eucharist was not able to remain in that violated body and mouth. The drink sanctified in the Blood of the Lord [santificatus in Domini sanguine potus] burst forth from her polluted stomach. So great is the power of the Lord, and so great his majesty!” (Cyprian, The Lapsed 25)

After that he said…

At the Last Supper, Christ the High Priest OFFERED SACRIFICE to God the Father, in the form of bread and wine “which is in fact His BODY AND BLOOD”

Convicted and of firm belief nothing should be changed.

“As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be anathema.” Galatians 1:6-9”
  1. “Since then, neither the apostle himself nor an angel from heaven can preach or teach any otherwise than Christ has once taught and His apostles have announced, I wonder very much whence has originated this practice, that, contrary to evangelical and discipline, water is offered in some places in the Lord’s cup, which water by itself cannot express the blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit also is not silent in the Psalms on the sacrament of this thing, when He makes mention of the Lord’s cup, and says, “Your inebriating cup, how excellent it is!” Now the cup which inebriates is assuredly mingled with wine, for water cannot inebriate anybody.” 👍
You have to love him. Like him, I wonder too. :)*
 
Just to clarify, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church uses unleavened bread during Pascha.
According to even EO writers, the Armenians’ use of unleavened bread predates the Chalcedonian schism

But they are alone in this particularity, both within our communion and the ancient church as whole as far as I can tell (I have read on here from a Maronite poster that the Maronites once used both leavened and unleavened, but there was no explanation as to when or why).
 
I’m sorry, but what does Rome’s basis for its own use of unleavened bread have to do with the Armenian reasoning for doing the same, insofar as we can know it based on what their own Catholicos said in the 7th-8th century? I personally don’t care why Rome does anything, only that your source claimed that the Armenians do so out of an allegiance to monophysitism when that is clearly contradicted by the Armenians themselves.
Dzheremi, I do apologise for being so thick headed and a little bit blind for missing the date of the Catholicos’ quote. I promise henceforth to never mention Le Brun or anyone quoting him again for the reasons you and others have pointed out.
Please forgive me for being a ‘dork’ and for calling to mind less pleasant terms during this time of preparation for our Lord’s life giving death and resurrection.
 
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