For Evangelicals/Protestants: Are there really 30,000 denominations? (RCs read also)

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All,

You often hear it claimed that there are 30,000 different denominations on this site. (Sometimes it goes up to 33,000!). This is not really accurate. It seems that there may be almost as many Roman Catholic denominations. Read this:

ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm

Then, if you want a follow-up, read this:

ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

I pray that this will help correct the misunderstanding which leads to misrepresentation.

In Christ,

Michael
 
Michael, I see you are an Evanglical Pastor. I welcome you to this forum as our Christian brother, and I love your heart that seeks more of the Spirit’s gift of Wisdom.

To get to brass tacks, I see the authors you mention don’t consider the objective measurement of IRS Tax-Exempt Status. Please forgive me if that sounds cheeky.

I’ve heard Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. on EWTN Live quote the current number of denominations in the U.S. by simply stating the number of such organizations the IRS publishes for tax-exempt status. They all applied separately to distinguish themselves from all the others for tax purposes. If that’s not an objective enough number to indicate the issue, what is more objective?

If only Jesus is Absolute, Unchanging Truth, and Jesus only started one Church, how can each of these claim to be of the teaching of the one true Church founded personally by Christ? But that doesn’t prevent them from being Christian.

As a pastor, I know there is some part or parts of the faith you hold that are absolutely non-negotiable. That constitutes doctrine, yes?

For example, if If I refuse to acccept the neccessity of God saving the Blessed Virgin Mary from any stain of sin from the first instant of her conception in order to prepare a suitable dwelling for the sake of the Lamb, and giving her the Grace to avoid any sin throughout her entire life through her co-operation, all to fulfil His Mosaic Law regarding the holy of holies, then I am opposing the Catholic Doctrine of God’s neccessary Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God to prepare the human way for Jesus.

Protestant friends of mine who have engaged in “denomination hopping” have told me “some will let you baptize children, others won’t.” I said “what if you do (or don’t) want your children baptized in their Church, and that wish opposes the non-negotiable protestant doctrine of that church?” They told me that you’d probably be ‘invited to join another denomination more in line with your personal Christian beliefs.’ Believe or leave?

They didn’t like me to say “protestant doctrine” but, hey if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, why call it an umbrella?

Can the Holy Spirit create more than one Truth? Of course not, because that would require Eternal Truth Himself to change His nature from what is absolute into sheer relativism.

How could the Paraclete lead each of these Christian ecclesial communities to absolute, absolutely correct, and therefore absolutely trustworthy Truth which just happens to differ in “non-essentials” from the others’ ?

Because of the nature of Truth Himself, that question actually doesn’t make any sense to me because it neccessarily offers Truth as having both an absolute and a relativistic nature.

I think the important question isn’t so much how could there be so many Truths, but rather, how could there be more than one?

That would call into question the nature of Truth Himself, and as you and I know, Truth cannot contradict Truth.

Forgive me because I don’t mean to denigrate your question asked in good faith, but from the perspective of Our Lord’s prayer at His Last Supper that all Christians may be One, it seems to me that the important question is not

“how many denominations are there, accurately?”

…that’s really a question for accountants to ponder…

but rather “How can there possibly be more than one Church founded by Jesus?”
 
I’ve seen the Svendsen stuff, its old. Derksen (now sadly schismatic) and Svendsen went back and forth on this a couple years ago. Svendsen is correct that folks are using the original source Barret’s World Christian Encyclopedia incorrectly (or at least not presenting the full picture from that source).

It’s safe to say there are thousands of (maybe not 30,000 but several thousand) separate and distinct Protestant denominations, sects, and cults. But its also safe to say there is not much difference in those Protestant churches (plural) when you compare the conservative “evangelical” branches of Protestantism to each other, and leave out the “liberals” and the pseudo-Christian cults (Mormons, JWs, etc) – just as Catholics would leave out the “modernists” or “schismatics” from Catholicism. There – trying to be fair…

And there is really is only one holy Catholic Church, but one Church with several rites (the Latin or Roman being the most prominent).

So No, it is not correct to say there are just as many Catholic “denominations” since there is only one Catholic Church with different rites. However, there is not just one Protestant “church” but churches (plural) or “denominations.” See also Meads Handbook of Denominations, several hundred Protestant denominations are named and listed in that book alone. And Svendsen is not helping uniting them together since he’s excommunicated Tim Enloe. 😛

Does that help any? :confused:

Phil P
 
While there may be several hundreds of denominations, it’s also true that many (most?) of these are not in formal schism with each other, and share no doctrinal differences. In Protestantism, some denominations are restricted just to certain localities. So a Baptist living in say, Costa Rica would belong to a certain Baptist denomination. When the Costa Rican moves to the US, he’ll go to a Baptist Church here, of a different denomination. But he wouldn’t feel as if he’s made a “conversion” from one religion to another, or had adopted differt beliefs. He takes this state of affairs for granted.

Yes, Protestants are scandalously divided, many-fold, and over a number of essential issues. It truly is “a house divided that cannot stand.” However, to exagerrate with big numbers does no one any good.
 
I am not saying that I agree with everything on his website, but this article was very helpful and confirming. I appreciate all of you who recognize that those who are Protestants and believe the Bible is the word of God are VERY united in actuality even though we do not have an institutional authority which regulates this.

Also, I appreciate those of you who recognize that just because someone is not RC does not mean that they are automatically Protestant, much less evangelical.

Michael
 
The way they split off from one another all the time (as you well know) the higher number certainly seems more likely…LOL

Question:
If you are not Protestant or evangelical then what exactly are you?

I hear people talk about non-denom churches…one of my close friends who is converting to Catholicism often refers to himself as an ex-“Bapticostal”. In general I find that most nondenoms are just escaped Prots who left the rest. I tried ALL that…before coming back to the Faith I was raised in…because I became convinced that it was right Biblically and traditionally. To me…it’s the only one that really makes sense in Biblical context.

Anyway…welcome aboard! 🙂
 
Church Militant:
The way they split off from one another all the time (as you well know) the higher number certainly seems more likely…LOL

Question:
If you are not Protestant or evangelical then what exactly are you?

I hear people talk about non-denom churches…one of my close friends who is converting to Catholicism often refers to himself as an ex-“Bapticostal”. In general I find that most nondenoms are just escaped Prots who left the rest. I tried ALL that…before coming back to the Faith I was raised in…because I became convinced that it was right Biblically and traditionally. To me…it’s the only one that really makes sense in Biblical context.

Anyway…welcome aboard! 🙂
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Not Protestant: Cults, restoration churches, factions, religions that believe the bible, etc.

Not Evangelical: Those who do not believe the Bible is inspired and inerrant.

An Evangelical Protestant is one who believes that the Bible is the final and only inerrant authority in all matters. There are not many of us and surely not many division. We just don’t have a institution that says “You are united.” But we do have a postion that says “you are united.”

I do pray that you understand the difference. Protestants, expecially evangelical Protestants do not like sloppy and misguided misrepresentation. They are called straw men arguments. I am sure that you do not like them either and I am not saying that you do this yourself.

Evangelical Protestants (which is what the Reformers were) are MUCH more united than almost everyone on this site understands. Many are misleading or being misled. I do hope this article at least make some of them think twice before they throw around high number–expecially to an evangelical Protestant.

All I am asking is that if you present a postition that you are against, present it acurately. It does nobody any good to be convinced off illinformed straw men arguments.

Thanks for reading this.

Michael
 
Michael, Michael, Michael— 🙂 You know very well that there is a huge difference between differing rites found within the Catholic Church, and separate denominations found in Protestantism, many of which won’t even fellowship with each other (or with those who fellowship with certain others–seperationism by degrees, I believe it’s called).

As for the 30,000 number that seems to come popping up, there are more reliable sources for these figures than the one you allude to–like the authoritative Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, for example.

Regardless of what the real number is (and this is the real point), even if it were HALF that number, it would still be a scandal for Christ’s Church to be splintered in that way. There is no New Testament or patristic precedent for it–either you were in the Church, or you were out of it. Local churches such as those addressed by the epistles were part of one visible Church, as evidenced by Acts 15 where an authoritative answer was sought to a problem that affected the whole Church. There has been only one Church since then (the Orthodox are in schism, but are still apostically descended from the original Church). The later Protestant Reformers, on the other hand, (after Luther’s generation) consciously placed themselves outside the Church, positing a “spiritual” Church, and setting the model for the splintering that continues unabated to this day.

Amusing sidenote: I once saw an ad for some software in an evangelical magazine that helped you create your own “Church”-- everything from structure, order of worship, to creating creeds, establishing doctrine and setting up a hierarchy.

Blessings,
Vince 🙂
 
Michael, Michael, Michael— 🙂 You know very well that there is a huge difference between differing rites found within the Catholic Church, and separate denominations found in Protestantism, many of which won’t even fellowship with each other (or with those who fellowship with certain others–seperationism by degrees, I believe it’s called).
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This is a mischaraterization. Evangelical Protestant do not quibble in such a way as much as you think. I belong to the Evangelical Theological Society, a group of thousand of Evangelicals from thousands of denominations. We all fellowship together based upon a common confession. When there are those who won’t fellowship because of little non-essential, we don’t identify with them nor they with us. It is the same for the many schisms that RC has . . . in the end, you just don’t claim them.

Again, for evangelical Protestants, there is much more unity than you think. That is all I am trying to say.
Amusing sidenote: I once saw an ad for some software in an evangelical magazine that helped you create your own “Church”-- everything from structure, order of worship, to creating creeds, establishing doctrine and setting up a hierarchy.
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I agree, this has problem. It does not sit well with me. Thanks for letting me know.

It is good to hear from you, as always you present things in a balanced way. Thank you.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
This is a mischaraterization. Evangelical Protestant do not quibble in such a way as much as you think.
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Evangelical Protestants are definitely divided over essential doctrine. They cannot agree on:Infant baptism, historical belief of Christians, or an abomination in the sight of God?

What is the correct interpretation of the Bread of Life discourse of John chapter 5? Is the Lord’s Supper the summit of the Christian life, a sacrament that brings forth the Real Presence of Christ and bestows sacramental grace? Or is the Lord’s Supper merely a pious practice that can be observed once in a while with grape juice an crackers?

Can women be ordained ministers?

Is Christ’s church constituted as a hierarchy with deacons, priests, and bishops possessing valid Apostolic succession, or is it constituted as a congregational fellowship?

Is artificial contraception a grave sin, or an acceptable Christian practice?

Etc. etc.

Not every Evangelical Protestant’s answer to these questions can be correct, and because Evangelical Protestants contradict each other, it is obvious that at least some Evangelical Protestants must be heretics. The Catholic Church, of course, teaches that all Evangelical Protestants espouse heresy, but she realizes that some Evangelical Protestant sects are less heretical than others. For example, the Catholic Church and the majority of the Evangelical Lutherans accept the *Joint Decree on the Doctrine of Justification *.

The greatest division among the Evangelical Protestants centers around the pernicious heresy of “Once Saved, Always Saved”. Evangelical Lutherans that reject OSAS have a far closer understanding of the nature of Justification with the Catholic Church than they do with Southern Baptists. The OSAS confessing Protestant Evangelicals are way out on the fringes of Christianity, and are perhaps, not even Christians anymore, since OSAS is the complete destruction of the Gospel.
 
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Matt16_18:
Evangelical Protestants are definitely divided over essential doctrine. They cannot agree on:Infant baptism, historical belief of Christians, or an abomination in the sight of God?

What is the correct interpretation of the Bread of Life discourse of John chapter 5? Is the Lord’s Supper the summit of the Christian life, a sacrament that brings forth the Real Presence of Christ and bestows sacramental grace? Or is the Lord’s Supper merely a pious practice that can be observed once in a while with grape juice an crackers?

Can women be ordained ministers?

Is Christ’s church constituted as a hierarchy with deacons, priests, and bishops possessing valid Apostolic succession, or is it constituted as a congregational fellowship?

Is artificial contraception a grave sin, or an acceptable Christian practice?

Etc. etc.

Not every Evangelical Protestant’s answer to these questions can be correct, and because Evangelical Protestants contradict each other, it is obvious that at least some Evangelical Protestants must be heretics. The Catholic Church, of course, teaches that all Evangelical Protestants espouse heresy, but she realizes that some Evangelical Protestant sects are less heretical than others. For example, the Catholic Church and the majority of the Evangelical Lutherans accept the *Joint Decree on the Doctrine of Justification *.

The greatest division among the Evangelical Protestants centers around the pernicious heresy of “Once Saved, Always Saved”. Evangelical Lutherans that reject OSAS have a far closer understanding of the nature of Justification with the Catholic Church than they do with Southern Baptists. The OSAS confessing Protestant Evangelicals are way out on the fringes of Christianity, and are perhaps, not even Christians anymore, since OSAS is the complete destruction of the Gospel.
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Goodness, I did not say that there weren’t disagreements or that we were united on 100% of everything did I? You would admit that Catholics are not %100 united, wouldn’t you. It is a false standard that you set up that has NEVER been fulfilled in the history of the Church. I know that you do not mean that everyone has to be united on %100 of everything, but you come across as if you do, and this will corner you in the end.

You have disagreements concerning the meaning of V2 and “outside the Church there is no savation” (inclusivism), and the like, so we also have important disagreements. Your disagreements fall under the interpretation of the Magisterium, ours under the interpretation of the Scripture. I will stick with the Scripture.

I was just saying that we are not as divided on doctrine as you think. When it comes down to it, Evangelicals agree on about 95% of all issues, RCs, I would guess 96%. You make a mountian out of a molehill. It is not that significant.

I would agree, however, that Evangelical Protestant need to find a better way to make their congregations realize that they are united as they are so that there is more of a percieved unity that mirrors the true unity.

Hope you understand. I was just trying to clear up the 30,000 buisness that is SO mischaracterizing.

Michael
 
this is from a post from Katholikos back in June of this year:

An article in the April 16, 2001 Newsweek magazine, that documents the rapid growth of separate, competing, and conflicting Protestant denominations in the world, reports the number of denominations as 33,820.

Newsweek’s source for this number is the World Christian Encyclopedia by David Barrett (2001 edition), where it appears on page 10 of Volume 1. (In 1970, a similar statistical study by Barrett gave the number of denominations as 26,350.) The 2001 figure is broken down as 11,830 traditional denominations and 21,990 paradenominations. He divides Christianity into (Roman) Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant (Barrett is an Anglican clergyman). So if an organization does not belong in one of the first three categories, it’s Protestant. Barrett has some statistical definitions and breakdowns which must be taken into account.

Protestant apologist Eric Svendsen has taken exception to this statistical study, or rather to those who don’t read it his way, and has concluded that are are actually only 8,196 Protestant denominations . He criticizes Catholic apologists for using the larger number, though they most likely get it from publications like Newsweek. I doubt that every apologist has a copy of the statistical study, which costs a couple of hundred dollars or more.
 
‘you have 1000’s of denominations’

‘no we don’t, YOU do.’

‘no we don’t. shut up.’

‘no YOU shut up…’

hee hee. it IS an amusing argument…

i WOULD like to point out, as a licensed baptist minister with a degree in baptist theology, now converted to the catholic church (where i’m eternally happy.) 🙂 that i would contend that there are many, many more than 30,000 denominations in the protestant church. in many churches, each member is a belief system all his own. it could be argued that there are millions of protestant denominations.

so - it comes to a definition (as do most arguments). what do we mean by ‘denomination’? i think the tax exempt status is a pretty good rule of thumb to go by.

michael - thanks for giving us what you feel to be helpful advice. i appreciate your attempt, in brotherly love (please read this entire paragraph sans sarcasm), to help us understand the protestant position more fully. but please also understand that there is a basic difference in type between the unified groups of separate ministries in the catholic church, vs the schismatic and largely mutually exclusive groups comprising the protestant world.
 
jeffreedy789 said:
‘you have 1000’s of denominations’

‘no we don’t, YOU do.’

‘no we don’t. shut up.’

‘no YOU shut up…’

hee hee. it IS an amusing argument…

i WOULD like to point out, as a licensed baptist minister with a degree in baptist theology, now converted to the catholic church (where i’m eternally happy.) 🙂 that i would contend that there are many, many more than 30,000 denominations in the protestant church. in many churches, each member is a belief system all his own. it could be argued that there are millions of protestant denominations.

so - it comes to a definition (as do most arguments). what do we mean by ‘denomination’? i think the tax exempt status is a pretty good rule of thumb to go by.

michael - thanks for giving us what you feel to be helpful advice. i appreciate your attempt, in brotherly love (please read this entire paragraph sans sarcasm), to help us understand the protestant position more fully. but please also understand that there is a basic difference in type between the unified groups of separate ministries in the catholic church, vs the schismatic and largely mutually exclusive groups comprising the protestant world.
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That is great! Thanks. I also see your point in the last paragraph.

I still contend that Evangelical Protestantism is much more unified than any here care to admit. Again, I think the Evangelical Protestants agree on about 95% of the issues, while RCs agree on about 96%. Just a guess, but in the big picture, it is not that different. That is the point of this tread. If people could see fourthings, I would be happy:
  1. Just because you are not Roman Catholic does not mean you get tossed into this big pile called Protestand, must less Evangelical Protestant. Therefore there numbers are grossly misleading.
  2. Evangelical Protestants agree on much more than you think. It is not in chaos as many would have others to believe.
  3. Catholics disagree about the interpretation of the Magisterium. Protestants disagree about the interpretation of the Magisterium. There is not much difference.
  4. I do wish that we (Evangelical Christians) had a better unifying factor. Roman Catholocism does (at least in theory) and I do appreciate this.
Michael
 
michaelp, The site (ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm) does not have an author, it indicates the paper is from Slippery Rock. I would say the Rock that Church is built on is indeed a Slipery Rock. Quite unlike the Rock (Cephas/Simon) that Jesus built his Church on.

The mystery writer did say there were 22,500 Protestant denominations back 15 years ago. Then he tried to say there are Protestants who are not really Protestants. Oh my, who is all mixed up now?

michaelp, did I read that you belong to some exclusive group? You say 1000 people are members of some superior conclave, wasn’t ordinary Protestantism good enough for you? What did you have to do to join? Did you pay a handsome fee? Did you take a test? Did you have to collect signatures alledging you were a real live Christian? What were the requirements?
 
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Exporter:
michaelp, did I read that you belong to some exclusive group? You say 1000 people are members of some superior conclave, wasn’t ordinary Protestantism good enough for you? What did you have to do to join? Did you pay a handsome fee? Did you take a test? Did you have to collect signatures alledging you were a real live Christian? What were the requirements?
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I really don’t understand this one. Someone said that I belong to an exclusive group . . . don’t believe what you hear. I am a Morman, but an inclusive Morman . . . It is a joke. And not a funny on at that.

I belong to the universal body of Christ that finds its expression through its local arm here in Frisco TX. I hope that this is clear. www.stonebriar.org.
 
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michaelp:
I still contend that Evangelical Protestantism is much more unified than any here care to admit. Again, I think the Evangelical Protestants agree on about 95% of the issues, while RCs agree on about 96%.
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Then why doesn’t everybody just come back to the Catholic Church and be done with it? :.)

Chuck
 
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clmowry:
Then why doesn’t everybody just come back to the Catholic Church and be done with it? :.)

Chuck
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Actually, the way we see it, we invite you come back to us!

Nevertheless, thanks for the invite. That is kind.

Michael
 
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