For Evangelicals/Protestants: Are there really 30,000 denominations? (RCs read also)

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Luke1:48:
Which one? :hmmm:
Any one that has the Gospel purely kept. There are alot of them. Most of them will go by the name Evangelical.

Really, there is no one institutional head that either of us must abide under except Christ, since the Church, by definition, is His body.

No, I don’t want to go off on that issue. Let us save it for another time.😉

Michael
 
Because we are human we will never agree 100% on everything. The church consists of peolple who believe Jesus is the Son of God, have repented of sin, and seek God’s will in their lives no matter what denomination one belongs to. So there is one church, many denominations.
 
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michaelp:
Actually, the way we see it, we invite you come back to us!

Nevertheless, thanks for the invite. That is kind.

Michael
 
There should not even be ONE denomination, period! Christianity is a confusing belief system for many because of all the different beliefs. I use to be protestant and where I believed if one believed in free-will, they were dammed for hell unless they changed to election. Within my old church a number of us after the sermon would debate among each other and against the pastor many times, all quoting from scripture and all claiming the Holy Spirit is teaching us. Complete confusion and God is not the author of confusion. Christ prayed that we would be ONE, and the St. Paul argued against divisions in Biblical times saying “Is Christ divided? Did Paul or Peter die for you?” That was just over issues as “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Christ.” So imagine what he would say today over the great multitude of beliefs and divisions.

I pray for my seperated brethern. God give you peace:)
 
I’m still praying that God does the inviting:) Michael you have a great ferver and beautiful heart, and God is not finnished with you yet, a work in progress.God Bless:gopray:
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
I’m still praying that God does the inviting:) Michael you have a great ferver and beautiful heart, and God is not finnished with you yet, a work in progress.God Bless:gopray:
Boy I hope he is not finished with any of us. Thank you for your kindness.
 
Nope, he is not finnished with any of us. Let’s labor to respond to the graces he gives us and always strive to do HIS will. God Bless:blessyou:
 
First of all, michalep, after reading Svendsen’s critique of the 30,000 number, did you go to the original source (now that you knew it), or did you accept his conclusions uncritically?

I ran into Svendsen’s article while trying to figure out if this 30,000 number had any validity. After all, I was a Protestant (yes, I acknowledged that I come from a line of faith that protested Catholic teaching; why are you ashamed of your history?), and this number just didn’t seem realistic.

Bartlett’s is not easy to find, but I was able to find it at a Reformed college library. I was on campus for other reasons, so only had about an hour to get a feel for it.

My conclusion was that yes, 30,000 is inflated, mainly because identical denominations in different countries are counted separately. But Svendsen’s statement of hundreds to thousands of Catholic “denominations” was just as wrong. Some of what he calls Catholic “denominations” are groups NOT in communion with Rome (with women priests supporting abortion, for instance). Then there were some 227 Roman Catholic “denominations”. Guess what, that’s just one less than the number of world geographic areas, which as I said before Bartlett sort of automatically used as a dividing line.

So I came away realizing that while 30,000 is too high, the Roman Catholic Church is (a) far more unified than Svendsen wants to admit, and (b) truly universal in scope.

And I agree with the earlier poster. Even throwing away the shock value of 30,000, how many IS an acceptable number for something that Jesus prayed would be ONE? I found Svendsen’s acceptance of even hundreds of denominations more troubling that a misinterpretation of magnitude.

And yes, a couple years later, I joined the Catholic Church.

Point two. Even granting your statement that Protestants agree on 95% of things, it seems to me that all the important things are in the other 5%. Hey, I’d been in more than a handful of those denominations in my 30 years in the Protestant church, so I speak from some personal observation.

Sure, churches are VERY unified on the need to have a rock band leading a 20-minute Praise and Worship time with all the same choruses that all the other churches are using. But try to get them to agree on the issues an earlier poster gave. Things like faith alone or faith with works, free will or predestination, baptismal regeneration, eternal security, sacraments or ordinances. That’s what divides them, and that’s the core questions of how we are brought back to fellowship with God. The other 95% is fluff.

Thanks for posting your web site. Chuck Swindol’s church. Maybe that’s why the Evangelical world looks unified to you: your senior pastor is one of the people that everyone else in America is following. Even before I knew your church affiliation, I was wondering how much of what you see as Holy-Spirit inspired unity is more a product of Christian Booksellers Association, National Religious Broadcasters, and American idolization of media stars. (BTW, I also worked at a Christian radio station for several years.)

I took a look at your statement of belief.

You believe the Bible is without mistakes as originally written. So how unified are you with the churches that believe the Bible is only without mistakes in the King James Authorized Version of 1611? Think they’d invite you to their pulpit preaching from another version? Would you invite them?

You believe in the Trinity. Good, but that’s not really unified with the Oneness Pentecostals.

You believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Bet you don’t have a lot of pulpit exchanges with United Church of Christ clergy.

The present ministry of the Holy Spirit… does that include speaking in tongues with interpration, prophecy, healing?

If there is mostly unity among Protestants, why are there 4 different kinds of Lutherans? Why do pro-life Lutherans need to set up another organization outside of the church? Two varieties of Reformed? Over a hundred flavors of Baptists?

(continued)
 
(continued)

Third, maybe this will be more useful. You said you wished Evangelical Christianity had a better unifying factor. Well, from my experience, here are some ideas. Maybe you do them already. Not many do.
  • Do you donate from your own church’s financial success to help struggling churches, even if another denomination?
  • Do you send your members back to small churches who are in danger of folding due to declining membership?
  • When someone in your church finds a rock band worship style deadly to their spirit, for instance due to past very bad associations with rock much, do you help them find another church and introduce them to the pastor?
  • Do you suggest your members attend special speakers and events at other churches?
  • If you hear of a person having a conflict in another church, will a staff member of your church be willing to act as a mediator to restore that person to fellowship in the other church?
  • Of course, if you could get all Christians to agree on things like abortion is bad; homosexuals need to be treated with compassion; homosexuals acts are wrong; that all Christians should be concerned for social justice, but neither Republicans nor Democrats have the only answers; … well that would go a long way to presenting a more unified front to the world. You’d even find yourselves in greater unity with Catholics.
In closing, gotta comment on the exchange of invitations, and your answer to “which one”: “Any one that has the Gospel purely kept. There are alot of them. Most of them will go by the name Evangelical”. I’ve been in Evangelical churches all my life (except for a couple years in a Reformed Church). So I know what Evangelical churches teach. I wasn’t even looking to convert when I started studying Catholicism, I just wanted a better understanding of their (wrong, I thought at the time) beliefs.

The clincher for me that compelled me to join the Catholic Church was when I started reading what the earliest Christians wrote, what they preached and exhorted to each other, how they expounded on the nascent scriptures. They believed, in the years closest to Christ, the same things that the Catholic Church teaches today. So in looking for the Gospel purely kept, there was no doubt in my mind it is in the Catholic Church.
 
Fidelis :
Amusing sidenote: I once saw an ad for some software in an evangelical magazine that helped you create your own “Church”-- everything from structure, order of worship, to creating creeds, establishing doctrine and setting up a hierarchy.
Matt. 16:18 “Thou art Software, and upon this Software I will build my church, and the Gates of Bill shall not prevail against it.”😃

kepha
 
Wether the number be 22,000 or 30,000 is not the big scandal here. To be honest nobody really knows except except it is
in the tens of thousands for sure.
The big scandal is the thousads of divisions we have in the church today when the church Christ founded in the bible proclaims to be 1.
The notion of more then one church is scandelous and something protestants can;t reconcile.
The notion that evangelicals all think alike and thus fellowship together and everything is groovy is quite interesting as being in the environment some of this is truth you would agree on the basics as we liked to call it. OF course who determined these basics was entirely subjective of course the Bible ask us to beleive in all things not basics… Church splits with result in the simplist of things some that really don’t even qualify as dogmatic some in one church thought the worship should be more charismatic and speaking in tongues and prophecy was essential in the life of a christian others thought its should be done in moderation and optional in all other things they agreed but this was to much to reconcile thus 2 differnt chuches. Why such a church split over such simple things. THe answer is clear human beings founded these churches and have human interpretations of what the holy spirit is telling them to do. They use the same bible to back up their both supposedly Bibilical arguments. Christ gave are us the mechanism of Peter as our unity in the church theBible cannot unify us alone it ultimatly seperates us in human interpretation. OF course evangelicals are but a small part of protestantism even though they deny being protestants if you are not catholic your protesting the church christ founded. Whether you acknowledge or not. IF you can trace your church was founded by anyone not named CHristguess what your protestant.
 
Michaelp,

It will help you to know that I was kicked out of an Evangelical Free Church of America for questioning the church schedule. The pastors, in particular, the woman pastor (of children’s ministries) falsely accused me of heinous things, and the pastors told me that I was “striving against the leadership of the church.” (A year later, this woman pastor was fired from this church after she was caught in a lie).

We also suspect that one of our daughters may have been abused by someone in this church. For the seven years of our sojourn there, she hated the church and constantly asked if we could find another church. When the end came and we came home crying after the “tribunal” that ousted us, our daughter screamed out, “I TOLD YOU! I KNEW THAT CHURCH WAS EVIL!”

So I have a bit of an axe to grind against Protestant churches, in particular, evangelical churches.

Mind you, I came from excellent evangelical churches. I grew up with Evelyn Christenson as my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor. John Ortberg was in my youth group. I had excellent evangelical credentials and a 40-year record of service in evangelical churches that could have won me “Laywoman of the Year” in almost any evangelical church in the U.S.

Now I don’t trust any evangelical church, and I think Sola Scriptura is an invention of the devil. Those pastors used their Holy Bible to prove that I should be ousted. Because they were the ordained “Leaders,” everyone in the church took their side and considered me “anathema.” Once I was “outside,” I had no life. You know how it is. In the evangelical world, church is your life, especially if you are a woman.

They never called, never wrote, never checked to see if I was OK. I wasn’t. I cried for weeks, and had grisly, sickening nightmares about me and my family being chased down and executed by church people.

Almost two years later, neither of my two daugthers will have anything to do with any church, although they still profess faith in Jesus. My older daughter says, “Mom, if they could treat you that way after all your work in the church, how would they treat me?” She calls herself “damaged” by our church, and still has thoughts of entering a morning worship service and telling them all off.

And my younger daughter simply says she “can’t trust churches.”

The evangelical churches of the world have NO ANSWER for me and my family. There is no “pope” that I can go to to seek justice and restoration. There is no “mediator,” no “structure” that I can appeal to. Just thousands of individual churches, each full of people who “follow the Holy Spirit’s guiding in interpreting the Scripture.” Dandy.

I doubt that any Protestant publishing house would even publish a book about my horrific experiences in this church, although I have worked on one. They would say that I was “striving” or “being unforgiving” or “giving non-believers a weapon to use against us.”

Yet, from what I have read online, there are thousands of evangelicals who have the SAME KIND OF OUSTING EXPERIENCE, and have been horribly “damaged” by their churches. People should be warned and churches held accountable for the havoc they are wreaking in the name of “following the Bible alone.”

My question to you is, “If your church is following the ‘New Testament Church,’ why don’t you accept ALL the teachings of the early church fathers, for example, Eucharist? Why do you pick and choose those teachings that ‘fit’ with YOUR denominational beliefs?”

Thanks for the invitation to your church. I will come back and visit you only when I have been publicly and nationally “restored” to fellowship and those pastors made to admit that they did wrong.

Yes, I believe you are a Christian and that your church is a Christian church, but a poor copy of the original. Heaven help those who go to your churches.
 
Michaelp,

Consider this a direct challenge.

You are the first “opportunity” I have had to state my case before “nationally-recognized” Protestants. You are a link with
Chuck Swindoll, one of the Protestants that I would consider a universally-accepted “leader” of Protestants (along with Billy Graham, James Dobson, and Chuck Colson, although Mr. Colson has gotten himself into a bit of a “pickle” because of his support of ECT! Good for him!).

Contact me. Please.

Ask Pastor Swindoll to “hear my case” and bring it before the Protestant Christians of the world. Ask him to try to bring about true reconciliation, not just “truce,” which is what exists at the moment. When I see any of these pastors or church people on the street, I nod and smile, and they do the same. That’s it. That’s not oneness. That’s “white flag.” Not much of a “witness” to the unbelieving world.

I was the choir director of a children’s choir at that church. The first year I did it, there were 29 children. The next year there were 40. The final year, right before I was kicked out, almost 60 children were planning to join the choir. Obviously I ran a good choir.

I loved those kids. I still do.

When I was ousted from this church, these children were all taken from me. My heart was and still is broken for them. I pity them, in this horrible church with those horrible leaders. I miss them and wonder what happened to all of them. I wonder if they ever questioned what happened to their choir director. One of the moms (who still had the nerve to speak to me) told me last year that some of the parents went to the pastors to ask what had happened, and they were told that I had “chosen” to leave.

What must these children think of me? This is unfair.

When they get older, perhaps they will remember and ask mature, searching questions, and then what will their church tell them? What will the pastors say to cover up their own cruelty?

You can see that the actions of this church could have repercussions far beyond just losing me and my family.

My daughters, oh, my daughters. They were raised in the church, accepted Jesus into their heart at an early age. My older daughter will graduate from a Christian college this winter. Her original career goal was missions, specifically, a drama mission in a large megachurch.

Now she wants NOTHING to do with churches. She is known on her college campus as a “devil’s advocate,” who shreds incoming freshman in class discussions and challenges everything the professors tell her. She has told several professors why she does this, what happened to her parents, and the professors say, “Well, I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do.”

They have no answers for her.

And my younger daughter, who has the singing voice of an angel. Thank God her best friend is a Catholic who invites her to sing at their church and has stuck by her for thirteen years. My younger daughter has NO memory of a GOOD church, other than that friendly Catholic Church.

Please step in and try to help put this back together. I realize that your P and W team and your Sports Outreach and your Small Groups and PDL meetings are all wonderful and exciting and you and Pastor Swindoll and all the rest of your staff are busy with these things.

But can you possibly try to help a woman, her husband, and two daughters who have been so horribly hurt by their church? You realize that all your evangelical work is tainted by the “tumor” in our town? The Bible says, “If one member suffers, all suffer.” Do you believe that? I do.

My husband and I are gloriously Catholic today, and we praise God now that our Protestant church kicked us out. We never would have looked at Catholicism had we not been ousted. It took an ousting to crumble the foundations of Sola Scriptura from underneath us and get us to read church history, the early church fathers, and see just what the “New Testament Church” really believed and practiced.

But we hate to see other Protestants suffer the same kind of treatment. That’s the main reason I long for someone to step in, to bring this case (and others like it) before the Christian community, and to say, “THIS MUST STOP!”

Hendricks wrote an excellent but very depressing book called “Exit Interviews.” This is the closest I have seen to an evangelical response to church abuse, but Mr. Hendrick’s book only had one printing and is only available online today.

I think there should be more Exit Interviews, and that Protestants (and Catholics too, if their church is guilty of such abuse) should sit up and take notice of their “back door.” Pastor Swindoll has the ear of millions of Protestant Christians (and probably quite a few Catholic and Orthodox Christians, too!). No one will listen to me.

Thank you.
 
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michaelp:
Any one that has the Gospel purely kept. There are alot of them. Most of them will go by the name Evangelical.
The one that believes in the rapture or the one that does not? :confused:
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michaelp:
Really, there is no one institutional head that either of us must abide under except Christ, since the Church, by definition, is His body.
By definition the church is his one body, not multiple bodies.
 
Michael,

You make some valid points, and I’ve criticized Catholic use of hte 30,000 figure frequently myself. However, I have to disagree with several of your arguments.

First of all, the Evangelical Theological Society is not a church, but an association of academics. That you would give this as evidence of evangelical unity is an excellent example of what is wrong with the Protestant conception of unity from the start. You don’t have unity among churches just because all your theologians can get together. I’m not disputing the value of this kind of unity, just saying that it isn’t enough. I don’t claim to know the exact denominational composition of the ETS, but as far as I can tell it includes free-church members of specifically evangelical denominations as well as evangelical members of mainline denominations. In other words, you might have Baptists, Pentecostals, and United Methodists or even Episcopalians. Now not only do the actual denominations that make up these traditions not agree with each other, but an evangelical Methodist (Tom Oden, for instance) may have more in common with a Baptist than with a liberal Methodist. In other words, if the ETS represents evangelical unity, then it not only unites traditions that have significant differences and divisions in their Sunday morning worship practice and their doctrinal standards, but even more to the point it cuts across the actual church commitments of its members. So in no sense can the ETS be said to represent a unity that wuld make any sense in terms of traditional ecclesiology. Yours is a highly cerebral, abstract notion of what unity is.

Similarly, the claim that Catholics are “divided” because they have doctrinal differences, or because many Catholics dissent from the teachings of the Church outright, discounts the notion of unity that Catholics are working with. Catholics all belong to a community that claims authority over them–a community that holds each of them accountable. Your model of unity, on the other hand, is abstracted from what people actually do on a Sunday morning. The structures of church governance and discipline under which people live are not those of the ETS but of their actual congregations and/or denominations.

Finally, your “evangelicalism” isn’t identical with Protestantism as a whole. Your definition of Protestantism, excluding the Restorationists, seems fairly arbitrary to me.The claim of Protestant disunity is about Protestantism, and as such it’s obviously true.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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BradW:
The clincher for me that compelled me to join the Catholic Church was when I started reading what the earliest Christians wrote, what they preached and exhorted to each other, how they expounded on the nascent scriptures. They believed, in the years closest to Christ, the same things that the Catholic Church teaches today. So in looking for the Gospel purely kept, there was no doubt in my mind it is in the Catholic Church.
I wish I had time to converse with many of you all, but I wanted to say to Brad in response to this. You are not going to stand with Church history at the day of Judgement and all the conflicting opinions that it has produced. You will stand alone. You will not be able to point to St. so and so or council such and such and say, “But he told me . . .”

I will stand alone and refer in my intergrety to the Word of God. I find great unity with the Saints of the past on some issues, just as you do on SOME issues. But when it comes down to it I understand more and more Luther’s statement that unless I am convinced by the word of God and reason, it would be irresponsible for me to believe. I might as well become Hindu if I were to submit to the low critera of justification of believing “Just because alot of other people do.”

Anyway, that is where I am at. Hope you understand. I don’t believe many things to easy. I don’t like Folk Theology, and I refuse to submit to it without any basis.

The entire body of Christ is united by an ontological unity that happened when God reconciled us to Him. We are one, whether we act like it or not. God works in spite of us and you. This is the great thing about the God to whom “no one can hold back his hand and say why have you done things the way you have done them.”

You all fail to see this. WE ARE ONE whether you know it or not, since we are all part of one body. WE ARE UNITED whether we know it or not. It is a western phenomenon, not a Protestant/Catholic issue that primarily makes us fail to see this.

The local churches are simply the local arm of the larger Body of Christ that is already unified ontologically (in essence). THAT IS IT. There does not need to be an institition that creates “said” unity (and from what I have seen, that is all it is). Their needs to be a realization by all that WE ARE ALREADY UNIFIED (1 Cor 12; Eph 4) . . . Already. There is nothing you or I can do to change the fact that we are one.

This is what this post was about. To help people stop building their staw men arguments by misrepresenting the Church of God.

Thanks
 
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Cat:
Michaelp,

It will help you to know that I was kicked out of an Evangelical Free Church of America for questioning the church schedule. The pastors, in particular, the woman pastor (of children’s ministries) falsely accused me of heinous things, and the pastors told me that I was “striving against the leadership of the church.” (A year later, this woman pastor was fired from this church after she was caught in a lie).

We also suspect that one of our daughters may have been abused by someone in this church. For the seven years of our sojourn there, she hated the church and constantly asked if we could find another church. When the end came and we came home crying after the “tribunal” that ousted us, our daughter screamed out, “I TOLD YOU! I KNEW THAT CHURCH WAS EVIL!”

So I have a bit of an axe to grind against Protestant churches, in particular, evangelical churches.

Mind you, I came from excellent evangelical churches. I grew up with Evelyn Christenson as my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor. John Ortberg was in my youth group. I had excellent evangelical credentials and a 40-year record of service in evangelical churches that could have won me “Laywoman of the Year” in almost any evangelical church in the U.S.

Now I don’t trust any evangelical church, and I think Sola Scriptura is an invention of the devil. Those pastors used their Holy Bible to prove that I should be ousted. Because they were the ordained “Leaders,” everyone in the church took their side and considered me “anathema.” Once I was “outside,” I had no life. You know how it is. In the evangelical world, church is your life, especially if you are a woman.

They never called, never wrote, never checked to see if I was OK. I wasn’t. I cried for weeks, and had grisly, sickening nightmares about me and my family being chased down and executed by church people.

Almost two years later, neither of my two daugthers will have anything to do with any church, although they still profess faith in Jesus. My older daughter says, “Mom, if they could treat you that way after all your work in the church, how would they treat me?” She calls herself “damaged” by our church, and still has thoughts of entering a morning worship service and telling them all off.

And my younger daughter simply says she “can’t trust churches.”

The evangelical churches of the world have NO ANSWER for me and my family. There is no “pope” that I can go to to seek justice and restoration. There is no “mediator,” no “structure” that I can appeal to. Just thousands of individual churches, each full of people who “follow the Holy Spirit’s guiding in interpreting the Scripture.” Dandy.

I doubt that any Protestant publishing house would even publish a book about my horrific experiences in this church, although I have worked on one. They would say that I was “striving” or “being unforgiving” or “giving non-believers a weapon to use against us.”

Yet, from what I have read online, there are thousands of evangelicals who have the SAME KIND OF OUSTING EXPERIENCE, and have been horribly “damaged” by their churches. People should be warned and churches held accountable for the havoc they are wreaking in the name of “following the Bible alone.”

My question to you is, “If your church is following the ‘New Testament Church,’ why don’t you accept ALL the teachings of the early church fathers, for example, Eucharist? Why do you pick and choose those teachings that ‘fit’ with YOUR denominational beliefs?”

Thanks for the invitation to your church. I will come back and visit you only when I have been publicly and nationally “restored” to fellowship and those pastors made to admit that they did wrong.

Yes, I believe you are a Christian and that your church is a Christian church, but a poor copy of the original. Heaven help those who go to your churches.
I am sorry for your bad experiences. Truly. But I could have 100+ people from our church who could write and give the woes of their former Roman Catholic experience as well. But this would not do either of us any good, since Muslim pastor could do the same.

Experience, while important, does not determine truth. Think if Athanasius followed by your criteria, he way kick out 5 times.

Again, I am bound by the Scriptures alone. I respect and look to traditions and I have found neither you or I completely represented–since they contradict many times. The only thing that does not contradict is God’s word which was recognized by the people of God.

Michael
 
My question to you is, “If your church is following the ‘New Testament Church,’ why don’t you accept ALL the teachings of the early church fathers, for example, Eucharist? Why do you pick and choose those teachings that ‘fit’ with YOUR denominational beliefs?”
Who said that mine was the NT Church. It is a common fallacy to think that we are trying to get back to the ONE NT Church. There were many local churches all united by one Spirit in an ontological union. You and I, if we have both trusted in Christ, are united whether we like it or not. You find your expression there, I find mine here.
Thanks for the invitation to your church. I will come back and visit you only when I have been publicly and nationally “restored” to fellowship and those pastors made to admit that they did wrong.
Have no clue what you are talking about, but the services are 8, 9:30, and 11:15.
Yes, I believe you are a Christian and that your church is a Christian church, but a poor copy of the original. Heaven help those who go to your churches.
Thanks for the encouragement . . . truly.

BTW: What did I write to deserve this?

Thanks
 
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