For fans of The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf vs. the Witch-King of Angmar

[dennisknapp]

I was just watching the film version of LOTR the other day (the extended version, not the theatrical version) and came across the part where Gandalf almost has an encounter with the Witch-King of Angmar.

This part of the movie is almost exactly as it is in the book, which is great.

My question to all you Tolkienphiles is this: since no man can kill the Witch-King, what would have happened if he and Gandalf were to fight? In the book it states that once Gandalf became the White no weapon could harm him, so what about the Witch-King.

It seems we have two powerful people that cannot be harmed by the other, but Gandalf in not a “man” per se but an angelic being incarnate in a body.

What would have happened if the Rohan had not arrived to lure the Witch-king away?

Any insight?

Peace

 

[antiaphrodite]

i think you said it when you mentioned gandalf is not a man per se.

 

[dennisknapp]

antiaphrodite:

i think you said it when you mentioned gandalf is not a man per se.

But he is male. It seems Tolkien avoided the issue by having the Rohan appear just before they could get into it.

Do you think it would have been a stand still?

Peace

 

[Other_Eric]

Hi dennisknapp!

I should think that Gandalf ultimately would have declined combat with the Witch King. True, Gandalf was a Maiar spirit, but he was also forbidden by the Valar to come forth in power as one. Gandalf’s charge was to assist the mortal world in solving its own problems. In every instance in the books Gandalf only functions as an agent to help the main characters (the mortals) prevent the unfettered destruction of the world.

 

[dennisknapp]

Other Eric:

Hi dennisknapp!

I should think that Gandalf ultimately would have declined combat with the Witch King. True, Gandalf was a Maiar spirit, but he was also forbidden by the Valar to come forth in power as one. Gandalf’s charge was to assist the mortal world in solving its own problems. In every instance in the books Gandalf only functions as an agent to help the main characters (the mortals) prevent the unfettered destruction of the world.

But he did fight and defeat a Balrog in Fellowship, and I would think the Balrog and the Witch-king are at the same level. Except for the prophacy regarding the Witch-king I see Gandalf winning hands down. If Gandalf the Grey could defeat a Balrog, what could Gandalf the White do?

Peace

 

[JimO]

dennisknapp:

Do you think it would have been a stand still?

Gandalf would’ve killed the fell beast and the Witch King would’ve had to hitch-hike back to Mordor.

 

[Other_Eric]

dennisknapp:

But he did fight and defeat a Balrog in Fellowship, and I would think the Balrog and the Witch-king are at the same level. Except for the prophacy regarding the Witch-king I see Gandalf winning hands down. If Gandalf the Grey could defeat a Balrog, what could Gandalf the White do?

Peace

Hi dennisknapp!

Again, the only reason he even dared to fight the Balrog was specifically to defend the Ring Bearer, since if he had not, the One Ring would have fallen into the hands of Sauron and brought the destruction of the world. Since there was no one else in the fellowship who could deign oppose the Balrog, Gandalf stepped in. The standoff between the Witch King and Gandalf is somewhat different in nature, for although you might be able to say that facially, the prophecy implied that no mortal could kill the Witch King, Gandalf would have had a better handle on its true meaning, and realized that this was not a fight for him, but for a mortal.

 

[dennisknapp]

Other Eric:

Hi dennisknapp!

Again, the only reason he even dared to fight the Balrog was specifically to defend the Ring Bearer, since if he had not, the One Ring would have fallen into the hands of Sauron and brought the destruction of the world. Since there was no one else in the fellowship who could deign oppose the Balrog, Gandalf stepped in. The standoff between the Witch King and Gandalf is somewhat different in nature, for although you might be able to say that facially, the prophecy implied that** no mortal could kill the Witch King**, Gandalf would have had a better handle on its true meaning, and realized that this was not a fight for him, but for a mortal.

If he understood that no mortal could kill him, why would he think it was a fight for a mortal? Gandalf was immortal and of a higher kind than the Witch-king.

Would he have thought that it was up to him (an immortal) to do away with the Witch-king?

This is fun!

Peace

 

[Shiann]

Gandalf, is of the Ainur and not a man.

Gandalf is also required to avoid confrontation where at all possible. He is not to be the hero of this story, but only a player in the transition to the Third Age- Age of Man.

Letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ (draft)…

He [Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’…

…no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the city has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed - and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to mortal hands. …

To answer your question, I believe that Gandalf the White mentions sometime in the story that encountering the Witch King would be just short of encountering the Dark Lord Sauron himself.

It is also my understanding that the Witch King was a tool of Sauron, and wielded the power Sauron gave to him. Gandalf, on the other hand, had this extraordinary well of power but was only able to use it to maintain the balance during the War. Gandalf could only use what power was necessary to match or temporarily overcome that of the enemy at hand.

So if they had to fight, Gandalf could no doubt have accessed Powers that would have allowed him to maintain the balance between Good and Evil, but he would not have been able to completely defeat the Witch King.

Another point to mention, it is apparent in much of Gandalf’s dialogue, that he is aware of certain events- or the path certain events must take in order to maintain the course. He offers advice and comments to help guide the true “players” in their campaign. That said, I suppose Gandalf would understand the fact that he must refrain from battling the Witch King outright, lest it upset the balance.

Therefore, I would say that for all givens, Gandalf would be able to defend himself in battle with the Witch King in perpetuity. Gandalf had access to Powers that would defeat it, but he was forbidden to access them for his own gain.

 

[dennisknapp]

Shiann:

Gandalf, is of the Ainur and not a man.

Gandalf is also required to avoid confrontation where at all possible. He is not to be the hero of this story, but only a player in the transition to the Third Age- Age of Man.

Letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ (draft)…

He [Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’…

…no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the city has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed - and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to mortal hands. …

To answer your question, I believe that Gandalf the White mentions sometime in the story that encountering the Witch King would be just short of encountering the Dark Lord Sauron himself.

It is also my understanding that the Witch King was a tool of Sauron, and wielded the power Sauron gave to him. Gandalf, on the other hand, had this extraordinary well of power but was only able to use it to maintain the balance during the War. Gandalf could only use what power was necessary to match or temporarily overcome that of the enemy at hand.

So if they had to fight, Gandalf could no doubt have accessed Powers that would have allowed him to maintain the balance between Good and Evil, but he would not have been able to completely defeat the Witch King.

Another point to mention, it is apparent in much of Gandalf’s dialogue, that he is aware of certain events- or the path certain events must take in order to maintain the course. He offers advice and comments to help guide the true “players” in their campaign. That said, I suppose Gandalf would understand the fact that he must refrain from battling the Witch King outright, lest it upset the balance.

Therefore, I would say that for all givens, Gandalf would be able to defend himself in battle with the Witch King in perpetuity. Gandalf had access to Powers that would defeat it, but he was forbidden to access them for his own gain.

So, the fight would be a stalemate until a time when someone, let’s say Eowyn or Pippin (or Merry) came to help him?

Peace

 

[tkdnick]

A different view…Take the surrounding context of the books and movies out. Gandalf versus the Witch-King in a straight-up fight just to see who’s better. Gandalf wins. Obviously the context changes everything, but take all that out and have it just be the two characters in a fight and Gandalf wins.

 

[Shiann]

dennisknapp:

So, the fight would be a stalemate until a time when someone, let’s say Eowyn or Pippin (or Merry) came to help him?

Peace

I guess my point is, that Gandalf knows this isn’t his fight.

I think his first choice would be to POSTPONE any fight until what he can perceive to be the “right time”.

Would he have fought the Witch King until Eowyn arrived… I guess he probably would.

 

[antiaphrodite]

dennisknapp:

But he is male. It seems Tolkien avoided the issue by having the Rohan appear just before they could get into it.

Do you think it would have been a stand still?

Peace

i think he would have kicked witch-king butt.

 

[dennisknapp]

Shiann:

I guess my point is, that Gandalf knows this isn’t his fight.

I think his first choice would be to POSTPONE any fight until what he can perceive to be the “right time”.

Would he have fought the Witch King until Eowyn arrived… I guess he probably would.

You seem to be very knowledgeable in this regard. What do you make of the origins of the orc?

I myself have read Tolkien’s letters and source books, but their origins are not clear.

I have read they are corruptions of elves, but would that make them immortal, or did they lose their immortality once they were corrupted into orcs.

Peace

 

[Baby_Sister]

This is very interesting. I’m a new fan, just having finished TFOTR a couple of days ago. Of course I’ve watched all the films as well.

My question is, how do you know all these things about Gandalf? Is it revealed in the next two books, or do you need to read The Silmarillion? Also, why is Gandalf called Mithrandir? Does that name relate to his other nature?

I hope you don’t mind turning away from the Gandalf vs. Witch King battle for a bit to answer.

 

[dennisknapp]

Baby Sister:

This is very interesting. I’m a new fan, just having finished TFOTR a couple of days ago. Of course I’ve watched all the films as well.

My question is, how do you know all these things about Gandalf? Is it revealed in the next two books, or do you need to read The Silmarillion? Also, why is Gandalf called Mithrandir? Does that name relate to his other nature?

I hope you don’t mind turning away from the Gandalf vs. Witch King battle for a bit to answer.

The source for the origins of Gandalf are found in the Simarillion. If you look under the chapter discussing the Valar, he is mentioned. Gandalf is from the West and is Maiar spirit as Other Eric has said.

He is part of a race of angelic being know as the Valar, with the Maiar being lesser spirits.

What this means is that he is a kind of angelic spirit sent to Middle Earth in a human body to help defeat Sauron.

Mithrandir is his elvish name, it mean grey pilgrim or wanderer in the Eldar tongue.

Another great source is the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Peace

 

[Shiann]

dennisknapp:

You seem to be very knowledgeable in this regard.

I enjoy the books immensely and have read each book quite a few times. Though I am not as fanatical as some, I enjoy the philisophical points, and like to research these questions to give a deeper meaning to my next reading of the full text.

What do you make of the origins of the orc?

LOL… This, I’m afraid is a question I don’t think Tolkien himself could have answered. It seems to me that Tolkein had a philisophical idea in his head- That EVIL cannot make, it can only corrupt. I think that Tolkien wanted to convey this in all of his evil races… by having them come forth from a supposedly “good” race. Like orcs springing from elves through corruption.

But I also think that Tolkien had not quite completed the whole idea of the orcs. I have seen people question not just their origins, but how long they live, and how they reproduce- (we don’t hear much about Orc females do we? )

I have seen some letters/documents/articles where Tolkien espouses that Orcs could be corrupted Men, Elves, or even that Morgoth had imbued beasts with some of his will to allow them some measure of “will”.

I guess regardless of their EXACT method of original birth, I can embrace the idea that Tolkien wished them to be a result of the corruption of evil on something that was, at one time, morally neutral or even good.

Orcs then become a perfect and extreme representation of what we become when we allow our spirits to be consummed by evil or sin.

I myself have read Tolkien’s letters and source books, but their origins are not clear.

I agree, and as I said earlier, I’m not sure if that was a philosophy that Tolkien just didn’t “finish” or if he meant their origins to be foggy.

As corruptible beings ourselves, we often cannot point to the specific moment where our corrupted nature begins to take over our reasoning.

I have read they are corruptions of elves, but would that make them immortal, or did they lose their immortality once they were corrupted into orcs.

Orc immortality another point that I don’t remember Tolkien specifically addressing. I do know that he does say that Orcs are NOT immortal, and that they can be slain. I believe he refers to this in Morgoth’s Ring.

Great topics of discussion!

 

[dennisknapp]

Shiann:

I enjoy the books immensely and have read each book quite a few times. Though I am not as fanatical as some, I enjoy the philisophical points, and like to research these questions to give a deeper meaning to my next reading of the full text.

LOL… This, I’m afraid is a question I don’t think Tolkien himself could have answered. It seems to me that Tolkein had a philisophical idea in his head- That EVIL cannot make, it can only corrupt. I think that Tolkien wanted to convey this in all of his evil races… by having them come forth from a supposedly “good” race. Like orcs springing from elves through corruption.

But I also think that Tolkien had not quite completed the whole idea of the orcs. I have seen people question not just their origins, but how long they live, and how they reproduce- (we don’t hear much about Orc females do we? )

I have seen some letters/documents/articles where Tolkien espouses that Orcs could be corrupted Men, Elves, or even that Morgoth had imbued beasts with some of his will to allow them some measure of “will”.

I guess regardless of their EXACT method of original birth, I can embrace the idea that Tolkien wished them to be a result of the corruption of evil on something that was, at one time, morally neutral or even good.

Orcs then become a perfect and extreme representation of what we become when we allow our spirits to be consummed by evil or sin.

I agree, and as I said earlier, I’m not sure if that was a philosophy that Tolkien just didn’t “finish” or if he meant their origins to be foggy.

As corruptible beings ourselves, we often cannot point to the specific moment where our corrupted nature begins to take over our reasoning.

Orc immortality another point that I don’t remember Tolkien specifically addressing. I do know that he does say that Orcs are NOT immortal, and that they can be slain. I believe he refers to this in Morgoth’s Ring.

Great topics of discussion!

Do you want to venture into Tom Bombadil territory? His nature, his philosophical meaning.

Peace

 

[Shiann]

Baby Sister:

This is very interesting. I’m a new fan, just having finished TFOTR a couple of days ago. Of course I’ve watched all the films as well.

My question is, how do you know all these things about Gandalf? Is it revealed in the next two books, or do you need to read The Silmarillion? Also, why is Gandalf called Mithrandir? Does that name relate to his other nature?

I hope you don’t mind turning away from the Gandalf vs. Witch King battle for a bit to answer.

Welcome Baby Sister! You know we were all new fans at some point

Like dennisknapp said, many of the deeper information regarding histories and specific characters are found in his compilation of Letters, and publications like the Silmarillion.

Enjoy your Middle Earth exploration!

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

dennisknapp:

You seem to be very knowledgeable in this regard. What do you make of the origins of the orc?

I myself have read Tolkien’s letters and source books, but their origins are not clear.

I have read they are corruptions of elves, but would that make them immortal, or did they lose their immortality once they were corrupted into orcs.

Peace

I was also under the (name removed by moderator)ression that they were elves that were corupted by the dark powers, there fore losing their immortal status. Also that they were grown as we saw in FOTR when they were growing Urikhi at Orthanc. Do you think that Tolkin was makeing a comment about how humans lose thier souls when they are “corrupted” by the evil one?