For fans of The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf vs. the Witch-King of Angmar

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Shiann:
I’m sorry, but I thought your comment was

I’m not sure WHERE he went after dying has anything to do with what he would become if he were to return to the place where he came from upon his final journey from Middle Earth.

My comments, directed to your question, were that Gandalf- where ever he has been since leaving Valinor as an Istari- has been LESS of what he was when he was a Maiar. My comments of him returning to the Valar after his death in Moria are speculation. But much of Tolkien’s work is speculation. He help an amazingly broad perspective of the lands of Middle Earth, all their inhabitants and all its geography. He spent a lifetime filling in the details and etching out a history for his imaginary world, but it is still full of inconsistancies and error, or just plain omittance.

Here is a comment I found where Tolkien speaks of Gandalf’s death directly:For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in confirmity to ‘the Rules’: for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

…So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ Of course, he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison…
Gandalf really ‘died’, and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called ‘death’ as making no difference… He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ‘Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, ‘unclothed like a child’ (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, (#156)]
Are you typing these from the book or do you have an electronic copy of Tolkien’s letters? If so how did you get them?

My response was to your response of how Gandalf was enhanced.

My musing about what form he would take once he reached Valinor was based in his desire to maybe retain his incarnate nature as an honor and as a choice, not that he would not have the option in the first place, and not that he was too changed to return to his former nature.

If he did retain his incarnate form it would be a choice and an honor.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
Are you typing these from the book or do you have an electronic copy of Tolkien’s letters? If so how did you get them?
I do both. There are a lot of websites that tackle many of these questions, and I’ve just made a quick reference list for discussions such as this.
My response was to your response of how Gandalf was enhanced.
Yes I know, but I’m wondering what your point was.
My musing about what form he would take once he reached Valinor was based in his desire to maybe retain his incarnate nature as an honor and as a choice, not that he would not have the option in the first place, and not that he was too changed to return to his former nature.

If he did retain his incarnate form it would be a choice and an honor.

Peace
Ah, I disagree, but I understand your point now.

👍
 
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Shiann:
Yes I know, but I’m wondering what your point was.

👍
Just a response to the statement that Gandalf went to Valinor after the died. As you just posted, Gandalf left time and space and Valinor is located in time and space, therefore he could not have gone there.

Plus, he was enhanced and the Valar cannot do that either. I know this must seem knitpicky, but it is a passion of mine.

Peace
 
wisdom 3:5:
Have any of you read the Unfinished Tales? My husband got them for me, but I haven’t started it yet (too much on my shelf ya know?)
Yes i think it is superb, in fact in my opinion i feel that the histories and the events that take place before the war of the ring are more fascinating, and far more enhcanting than the last part of the series, FoTR, Two Towers, RoTK. I would highley recommend your husband pick up those copies and to read them thouroghly because they are just great works. I also extend that invitation to all those on this forum as well, those who haven’t read the Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, Morgoths Ring, Silmarillion, these are all incredibly captivating novels, and they are all apart of the main plot.
 
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dennisknapp:
Just a response to the statement that Gandalf went to Valinor after the died. As you just posted, Gandalf left time and space and Valinor is located in time and space, therefore he could not have gone there.

Plus, he was enhanced and the Valar cannot do that either. I know this must seem knitpicky, but it is a passion of mine.

Peace
So let me see if I have this correct. The following is a timeline for when Gandalf the Grey died fighting the Balrog:

Grey died on the mountain top, darkness took him, and he strayed out of thought and time. (This is where you espouse that he was in the presence of Iluvatar [the Authority]- right?)

He awakend again on the mountain as naked but as White, and was taken to Lorien (some say via Gwahir) healed and was clothed in white fully assuming the form of Gandalf the White.

Is that right?
 
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dennisknapp:
I know this must seem knitpicky, but it is a passion of mine.
Not knitpicky at all!

I was just confused when the conversation suddenly turned on a dime. I was under the impression we were discussing one topic, and the focus on a completely new topic threw me. I didn’t realize right away that you were just smoothing out details and not offering new points to the conversation at hand.

I can relate to the passion part…

:rolleyes:

LOL
 
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Shiann:
So let me see if I have this correct. The following is a timeline for when Gandalf the Grey died fighting the Balrog:

Grey died on the mountain top, darkness took him, and he strayed out of thought and time. (This is where you espouse that he was in the presence of Iluvatar [the Authority]- right?)

He awakend again on the mountain as naked but as White, and was taken to Lorien (some say via Gwahir) healed and was clothed in white fully assuming the form of Gandalf the White.

Is that right?
That is right.

Also, when Iluvatar enhanced him as Gandalf, would he not also be enhanced as Olorin?

Would this not fit into Tolkien’s Catholic view of suffering bring about glorification, sacrifice bring about resurrection.

So many levels.

Peace
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Real readers do not read Readers 🙂 ##

The Tolkien Reader was written by Tolkien. It’s a compilation of his writings on how to write fairy tales, it contains The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and *Leaf by Niggle. *
 
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dennisknapp:
That is right.

Also, when Iluvatar enhanced him as Gandalf, would he not also be enhanced as Olorin?

Would this not fit into Tolkien’s Catholic view of suffering bringing about glorification, sacrifice bringing about resurrection.

So many levels.

Peace
 
Here is another question:

All of Elrond’s children chose to be mortal. How long do you think they lived after this choice?

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
That is right.

Also, when Iluvatar enhanced him as Gandalf, would he not also be enhanced as Olorin?
Indeed!
Would this not fit into Tolkien’s Catholic view of suffering bring about glorification, sacrifice bring about resurrection.

So many levels.
Absolutely- good call.
 
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dennisknapp:
Here is another question:

All of Elrond’s children chose to be mortal. How long do you think they lived after this choice?

Peace
Well a quick number crunch indicates that Arwen lived to be around 362 years of age, while Aragorn lived to be about 221 years.

The twins were another 100 years or so older than Arwen and delayed their choice to sail to the West, or remain mortal. It would be my guess that they would live approximately 120 years beyond the “gift of their immortality” That is, they would live 120 years after the point at which they chose mortality.

If they chose immortality, then we have a moot point huh! 🙂
 
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dennisknapp:
Here is another question:

All of Elrond’s children chose to be mortal. How long do you think they lived after this choice?

Peace
Well Arwen betrothed herself to Aragorn in the year 2980 of the Third Age which would have made her about 2740 years old at the time. I’m assuming this was when she made her choice to remain in Middle Earth with Aragorn. She went on to live another 160 years and died in 121 of the Fourth Age. She was 2899 years old. (But I think she died of a broken heart, and may have lived a bit beyond 160 years.)

It would be my assumption that once the half-elf makes their choice as to their destiny (mortality) they would begin to live an extended mortal life.

Aragorn’s was 220 years or so when he died which would have given him an nice long life as a mortal. (His Dunedain blood coming in handy at this point.)

Taking everything into consideration, my educated guess would be that a half-elf lives but a couple hundred years beyond the point where they make their choice to become mortal. Since the twins delayed that choice, and it isn’t even known if they choose mortality or not, it’s impossible to say how long they lived for sure.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
The Tolkien Reader was written by Tolkien. It’s a compilation of his writings on how to write fairy tales, it contains The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and *Leaf by Niggle. *

Something I didn’t know 😃 TY​

I still don’t like abridged books, or books at any length other than their full extent. 🙂
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Something I didn’t know 😃 TY

I still don’t like abridged books, or books at any length other than their full extent. 🙂

Well, it’s kind of like the Histories of Middle-earth or Unfinished Tales because it was compiled and published after his death. It’s good, though.
 
I give a thumbs-up on the Tolkien Reader, too. BTW, it also includes “Farmer Giles of Ham” (at least my out-of-print edition does, not sure if it’s in the latest), which is a funny little story told more in the style of The Hobbit than LOTR. “Leaf by Niggle” is one of my favorites. The way Tolkien used the image of the painting is awesome.

On the original topic, thanks for all great stuff everyone posted on Gandalf. I’ve read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales (and forgotten a lot of it!). No question that Gandalf would have been victorious, but I love how the scene with Eowyn turned out, with her laughing at the Witch-King’s threat that “no mortal man may hinder me!”.

God Bless,
Tim
 
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tdnewts:
I give a thumbs-up on the Tolkien Reader, too. BTW, it also includes “Farmer Giles of Ham” (at least my out-of-print edition does, not sure if it’s in the latest), which is a funny little story told more in the style of The Hobbit than LOTR. “Leaf by Niggle” is one of my favorites. The way Tolkien used the image of the painting is awesome.

On the original topic, thanks for all great stuff everyone posted on Gandalf. I’ve read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales (and forgotten a lot of it!). No question that Gandalf would have been victorious**, but I love how the scene with Eowyn turned out, with her laughing at the Witch-King’s threat that “no mortal man may hinder me!”. **

God Bless,
Tim
See, if we had gender inclusive language that part would never make any sense.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
I was just watching the film version of LOTR the other day (the extended version, not the theatrical version) and came across the part where Gandalf almost has an encounter with the Witch-King of Angmar.

This part of the movie is almost exactly as it is in the book, which is great.

My question to all you Tolkienphiles is this: since no man can kill the Witch-King, what would have happened if he and Gandalf were to fight? In the book it states that once Gandalf became the White no weapon could harm him, so what about the Witch-King.

It seems we have two powerful people that cannot be harmed by the other, but Gandalf in not a “man” per se but an angelic being incarnate in a body.

What would have happened if the Rohan had not arrived to lure the Witch-king away?

Any insight?

Peace
I can’t recall who the witch king is. Is he the head of the nine riders? I would say that Gandalf would have no problem with him because he is not a man. He is angelic and only has the form of a man. He is neither male nor female, he only has the form of a man.

I would say that Gandalf would destroy him.
 
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jimmy:
I can’t recall who the witch king is. Is he the head of the nine riders? I would say that Gandalf would have no problem with him because he is not a man. He is angelic and only has the form of a man. He is neither male nor female, he only has the form of a man.

I would say that Gandalf would destroy him.
Yes, the Witch-king of Angmar is the Captain and foremost of the Nine.
 
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