For fans of The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf vs. the Witch-King of Angmar

[dennisknapp]

Thanks, Shiann.

Are there any questions you would like flushed out on this thread?

I am having a hard time coming up with new ones.

Peace

 

[Shiann]

dennisknapp:

Thanks, Shiann.

Are there any questions you would like flushed out on this thread?

I am having a hard time coming up with new ones.

Peace

Well, I have been kinda interested in the Catholic symbolism in Tolkien’s work. Essays and literary analysis’ that have been written deal most specifically with secular symbolism and general “christ figure” type analysis.

Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general.

Even so, knowing he was Catholic to the core, and a sound apologist- it would be hard to convince me that there is NO Catholic symbolism intentional or not.

So, If I were to expand the dialogue here, I would ask for people to specify references to Catholic doctrine, or tradition they have discovered that is represented in Tolkien works. I would ask for the specific allegory and some dialogue to back it up.

For instance lembas = eucharist.

The lembas bread that is consumed in the story has mysterious properties of sustinance for the weary and hungry. This is reflective of our spiritual bread that we consume as by the Body and Blood of Christ.

Has anyone else noticed the significance of the Gifts of Galadriel and the Seven Sacraments?

 

[tdnewts]

Shiann:

Not sure I understand the point here. I don’t remember ever offering a different opinion.

Sorry, I meant to note that I was fleshing out my comment about the Numenoreans in my earlier post…it just seemed to fit the topic at that moment.

Shiann:

Purgatory is not the same as limbo.

I agree, although the difference always confuses me!

 

[Shiann]

Gotcha!

 

[dennisknapp]

Shiann:

Well, I have been kinda interested in the Catholic symbolism in Tolkien’s work. Essays and literary analysis’ that have been written deal most specifically with secular symbolism and general “christ figure” type analysis.

Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general.

Even so, knowing he was Catholic to the core, and a sound apologist- it would be hard to convince me that there is NO Catholic symbolism intentional or not.

So, If I were to expand the dialogue here, I would ask for people to specify references to Catholic doctrine, or tradition they have discovered that is represented in Tolkien works. I would ask for the specific allegory and some dialogue to back it up.

For instance lembas = eucharist.

The lembas bread that is consumed in the story has mysterious properties of sustinance for the weary and hungry. This is reflective of our spiritual bread that we consume as by the Body and Blood of Christ.

Has anyone else noticed the significance of the Gifts of Galadriel and the Seven Sacraments?

The Marian role of Galadriel.

How Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo represent aspects of Christ, i.e., King, prophet, and humble servant.

Peace

 

[tdnewts]

Shiann:

Well, I have been kinda interested in the Catholic symbolism in Tolkien’s work. Essays and literary analysis’ that have been written deal most specifically with secular symbolism and general “christ figure” type analysis.

Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general.

Even so, knowing he was Catholic to the core, and a sound apologist- it would be hard to convince me that there is NO Catholic symbolism intentional or not.

So, If I were to expand the dialogue here, I would ask for people to specify references to Catholic doctrine, or tradition they have discovered that is represented in Tolkien works. I would ask for the specific allegory and some dialogue to back it up.

For instance lembas = eucharist.

The lembas bread that is consumed in the story has mysterious properties of sustinance for the weary and hungry. This is reflective of our spiritual bread that we consume as by the Body and Blood of Christ.

Has anyone else noticed the significance of the Gifts of Galadriel and the Seven Sacraments?

Thinking of the Gifts of Galadriel in terms of the Seven Sacraments is a new idea to me, even though I was aware of the lembas connection with the Eucharist. The elves even say that the sustaining power of lembas is strongest when it is the only source of food, which echos the lives of a few saints who lived on nothing but daily Communion.

The only thing that Tolkien wrote that could be considered an allegory is the story “Leaf by Niggle”. I don’t want to say what the allegory is if you haven’t read it, because it is a beautiful image and a great surprise. I will say that the Catholic doctrine involved is Purgatory and the process that occurs there (and gives the place its name).

Otherwise, you are absolutely right on about Tolkien disliking allegory. In the introduction to The Lord of the Rings, he called it “the purposed domination of the author”. So, most of the Catholic references in his works are based more on themes than direct allegories. I suppose some were intentional, and some apparently not.

Themes I’ve heard:

• death and resurrection - Gandalf the Grey becoming the White
• sacrifice - Gandalf again, but primarily Frodo. And there are other examples - Sam’s loyalty to Frodo to the end, despite his love for the Shire (and Rosie)
• humility - Sam
• redemption - Boromir
• Man as he was meant to be before the Fall - Faramir
• God’s ability to take good out of evil - Gollum’s part in the destruction of the Ring, even though it was done unwittingly
• the self-destructive result of following evil - Gollum, the Ringwraiths and others, including Sauron himself.

I’m sure there are many others. A couple of the possible direct references that I found interesting are:

• Galadriel, but more strongly Elbereth, respresenting the Blessed Virgin.
• The Ents respresenting the Church - in the sense that they are ancient and have deep roots! Well, I don’t know about the deep roots part…it would make walking difficult!

I heard a few of these from Joseph Pearce, who is the author of of a Tolkien biography that takes Tolkien’s Catholicism and the impact of it on his writings seriously. He has two books on Tolkien that have been published by Ignatius Press, and I recommend them both for anyone who would like to know more about Tolkien:

• Tolkien: Man and Myth - 1998 (the biography I mentioned)
• Tolkien: A Celebration - 1999 (a collection of essays from people who either knew Tolkien or studied his works)

The one thing that Tolkien definitely intended to show is that a myth is not false…it is a story meant to demonstrate truth. He thought myth is especially helpful in describing truth that would be hard to explain if you tried to lay out the facts. In it’s best sense, it gets to the meaning of the truth. When he explained this to C.S. Lewis in 1931, it was the turning point in Lewis’ conversion journey, because in a sense the Gospel stories can be seen as a myth. They are stories that sound too good to be true, but the joy of the matter is that they are true!

God Bless

 

[jimmy]

I would also add the Lembas being sybolic of The Eucharist, Aragorn as Christ The King, Aragorn as The Descendant of David.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sean.McKenzie:

Yes i think it is superb, in fact in my opinion i feel that the histories and the events that take place before the war of the ring are more fascinating, and far more enhcanting than the last part of the series, FoTR, Two Towers, RoTK. I would highley recommend your husband pick up those copies and to read them thouroghly because they are just great works. I also extend that invitation to all those on this forum as well, those who haven’t read the Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, Morgoths Ring, Silmarillion, these are all incredibly captivating novels, and they are all apart of the main plot.

Unfinished Tales is full of good things - particularly for those interested in the Second Age.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

dennisknapp:

My next topic is dwarf women.

What is the mystery behind them?

Why do we never see them?

Gimli does comment about them in the movie, but what does Tolkien have to about it?

Peace

That they are very hard to tell apart from Dwarves - hence the wholly mistaken notion that there are none.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Shiann:

Well, I have been kinda interested in the Catholic symbolism in Tolkien’s work. Essays and literary analysis’ that have been written deal most specifically with secular symbolism and general “christ figure” type analysis.

Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general.

Even so, knowing he was Catholic to the core, and a sound apologist- it would be hard to convince me that there is NO Catholic symbolism intentional or not.

So, If I were to expand the dialogue here, I would ask for people to specify references to Catholic doctrine, or tradition they have discovered that is represented in Tolkien works. I would ask for the specific allegory and some dialogue to back it up.

For instance lembas = eucharist.

The lembas bread that is consumed in the story has mysterious properties of sustinance for the weary and hungry. This is reflective of our spiritual bread that we consume as by the Body and Blood of Christ.

Has anyone else noticed the significance of the Gifts of Galadriel and the Seven Sacraments?

I think this is a mistaken approach - if we can’t take an author’s intentions as the guide for our interpretation, ISTM that we open the doors to a great deal of nonsense. For example - a Freudian might read certain passages as all sorts of things. Why not ? If the book is an allegory despite the author, or if his real intention (even though he did not know it) was to write an apologetic allegory, despite his explicit rejection of allegory: why can’t it be read as a record of the author’s neuroses, for example ? Barad-dur as phallic symbol ? Why not: if we ignore his intentions, anything is possible.​

Maybe Gandalf is an idealised father-figure, embodying the author’s suppressed guilt-feelings arising from the early death of his father: Gandalf does die. Saruman would then be a foil to these feelings, upon whom the author could take out his unadmitted hatred of his mother. Gandalf is obviously also the Pope - who is even called “Holy Father”. Arwen is an expression of all the things he did not find in his wife - a wish-fulfilment fantasy; as well as an expression of his fear of his mother. The Witch-king is a metaphor for death; Sauron, never seen (just like the Pope) expresses the author’s real feelings about Catholicism: explicitly, about Pius XII. As they were suppressed, they re-emerged - he told stories, as a means of living with his inner demons, or Orcs. (“Orcus” does = “death” in the language of Rome, or Barad-dur as it is called in the story.)

And so on. The reality is the author’s psyche: the occasional Catholic-seeming things are a mask presented to the world. He thought he was Catholic - but he wasn’t. He obviously hated being Catholic. But he was imprisoned by it, just as if he had been Gollum (who is a guilt-induced projection of himself). Freudian analysis - not Catholicism - is the key to understanding the book.

The Christian and Catholic elements in the book, would then be incidental to the book’s “real meaning” - the outer covering for the allegorised account, which the author did not know he was giving, of his unresolved inner frustrations & conflicts.

Nothing could be simpler.

Stories contain many elements: which of them is the subject matter of the book - and which are subsidiary elements ? Is the book mainly about Denethor ? Or, is it really about Orcs ? Is Rohan its real concern ? Or none of these ? Or all of them ?

It *might *be an allegory: it might be an exploration of fears about the A-bomb, or Communism, or modern technology or a dozen other things. That is why the author’s intention is so important. If the author’s real interest is in the evils of atomic research - the seemingly important religious elements could then be mere details for the sake of embodying the author’s tale. Aragorn has a lot of Messianic features - it doesn’t follow that Tolkien was writing a gospel for a new sort of Christianity; but that conclusion could be drawn. A Cathedral is a building - it doesn’t follow that all in it are interested in architecture, or in stained glass; or even in organs. They may be - they may also be there to pray.

IMO, a more subtle approach is required: he’s a Catholic Christian, but he is telling a tale, as he claims to be: Aragorn could then be important not as a Christ-figure, but because, if God is the supreme tale-teller, all realities, mythic ones included, are going to be related to His Son. Aragorn might be:

1. A replacement for Christ
2. An echo of Christ

One can have Catholic things in a story, not because one is a Catholic apologist-in-disguise, but because one finds Christ too important to confine to explicitly doctrinal texts.

 

[Shiann]

## I think this is a mistaken approach - if we can’t take an author’s intentions as the guide for our interpretation, ISTM that we open the doors to a great deal of nonsense. For example - a Freudian might read certain passages as all sorts of things. Why not ? If the book is an allegory despite the author, or if his real intention (even though he did not know it) was to write an apologetic allegory, despite his explicit rejection of allegory: why can’t it be read as a record of the author’s neuroses, for example ? Barad-dur as phallic symbol ? Why not: if we ignore his intentions, anything is possible.

Maybe Gandalf is an idealised father-figure, embodying the author’s suppressed guilt-feelings arising from the early death of his father: Gandalf does die. Saruman would then be a foil to these feelings, upon whom the author could take out his unadmitted hatred of his mother. Gandalf is obviously also the Pope - who is even called “Holy Father”. Arwen is an expression of all the things he did not find in his wife - a wish-fulfilment fantasy; as well as an expression of his fear of his mother. The Witch-king is a metaphor for death; Sauron, never seen (just like the Pope) expresses the author’s real feelings about Catholicism: explicitly, about Pius XII. As they were suppressed, they re-emerged - he told stories, as a means of living with his inner demons, or Orcs. (“Orcus” does = “death” in the language of Rome, or Barad-dur as it is called in the story.)

And so on. The reality is the author’s psyche: the occasional Catholic-seeming things are a mask presented to the world. He thought he was Catholic - but he wasn’t. He obviously hated being Catholic. But he was imprisoned by it, just as if he had been Gollum (who is a guilt-induced projection of himself). Freudian analysis - not Catholicism - is the key to understanding the book.

The Christian and Catholic elements in the book, would then be incidental to the book’s “real meaning” - the outer covering for the allegorised account, which the author did not know he was giving, of his unresolved inner frustrations & conflicts.

Nothing could be simpler.

Stories contain many elements: which of them is the subject matter of the book - and which are subsidiary elements ? Is the book mainly about Denethor ? Or, is it really about Orcs ? Is Rohan its real concern ? Or none of these ? Or all of them ?

It *might *be an allegory: it might be an exploration of fears about the A-bomb, or Communism, or modern technology or a dozen other things. That is why the author’s intention is so important. If the author’s real interest is in the evils of atomic research - the seemingly important religious elements could then be mere details for the sake of embodying the author’s tale. Aragorn has a lot of Messianic features - it doesn’t follow that Tolkien was writing a gospel for a new sort of Christianity; but that conclusion could be drawn. A Cathedral is a building - it doesn’t follow that all in it are interested in architecture, or in stained glass; or even in organs. They may be - they may also be there to pray.

IMO, a more subtle approach is required: he’s a Catholic Christian, but he is telling a tale, as he claims to be: Aragorn could then be important not as a Christ-figure, but because, if God is the supreme tale-teller, all realities, mythic ones included, are going to be related to His Son. Aragorn might be:

1. A replacement for Christ
2. An echo of Christ

One can have Catholic things in a story, not because one is a Catholic apologist-in-disguise, but because one finds Christ too important to confine to explicitly doctrinal texts.

I totally agree with your premise, that without the knowledge of the author’s intent… we are at a loss to be sure of what he or she was trying to convey- if anything…

I did indicate as much in my post that you quoted when I said:

"Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general. "

It was my desire NOT to second guess Tolkien- or even put words in his mouth so to speak… nor was I advocating anyone else do that.

My point is that though Tolkien admitted that he did not place any specific allegory in the stories- he did repeatedly say that he was a religious man, and that they were religious works.

How can this be without any parallels to religion?

I was just offering a chance for myself and other posters to explore what those other parallels might be.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Shiann:

I totally agree with your premise, that without the knowledge of the author’s intent… we are at a loss to be sure of what he or she was trying to convey- if anything…

I did indicate as much in my post that you quoted when I said:

"Though Tolkien has denied (emphatically I might add) intentional Catholic allegory in his works, I do know that he considered his work religious and Catholic in general. "

It was my desire NOT to second guess Tolkien- or even put words in his mouth so to speak… nor was I advocating anyone else do that.

Then I misunderstood you completely - I though you were encouraging exactly that.​

Sorry ##

My point is that though Tolkien admitted that he did not place any specific allegory in the stories- he did repeatedly say that he was a religious man, and that they were religious works.

How can this be without any parallels to religion?

I suggested a couple of possibilities - the question is, how are the story and the religion related ? They might be related in a number of ways: not in the direct manner of allegory​

I was just offering a chance for myself and other posters to explore what those other parallels might be.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

dennisknapp:

I was just watching the film version of LOTR the other day (the extended version, not the theatrical version) and came across the part where Gandalf almost has an encounter with the Witch-King of Angmar.

This part of the movie is almost exactly as it is in the book, which is great.

My question to all you Tolkienphiles is this: since no man can kill the Witch-King, what would have happened if he and Gandalf were to fight? In the book it states that once Gandalf became the White no weapon could harm him, so what about the Witch-King.

It seems we have two powerful people that cannot be harmed by the other, but Gandalf in not a “man” per se but an angelic being incarnate in a body.

What would have happened if the Rohan had not arrived to lure the Witch-king away?

Any insight?

Peace

An idea: instead of “Tolkienphiles” - why not “Tolkiendili”, as on some French and Spanish forums ?​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

## An idea: instead of “Tolkienphiles” - why not “Tolkiendili”, as on some French and Spanish forums ? ##

Bump​

 

[dennisknapp]

## Bump ##

Great website!

Thanks

Peace

 

[tdnewts]

Gottle of Geer:

One can have Catholic things in a story, not because one is a Catholic apologist-in-disguise, but because one finds Christ too important to confine to explicitly doctrinal texts.

I also agree with this and your general argument.

But we do know a few things about Tolkien’s intentions from biographies and his own letters. In 1953, a family friend who was also a priest, Fr. Robert Murray, SJ, read a typescript of the book and wrote to Tolkien that it left him with a strong sense of “a positive compatabilty with the order of Grace”. He also compared the image of Galadriel with the Blessed Virgin. Tolkien responded, saying “I think I know exactly what you mean by the order of Grace; and of course by your references to Our Lady, upon which all my own small perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded. The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsiously so at first, but consciously in the revision…the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.”

So, I think we can look for Catholic themes in Tolkien’s works, not to put words in his mouth, but to have fun with it to see what may have been inspired by his faith.

God Bless

 

[Shiann]

dennisknapp:

The Marian role of Galadriel.

How Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo represent aspects of Christ, i.e., King, prophet, and humble servant.

Peace

Indeed, I totally agree here that rather than ONE single character representing a “Christ figure”, there are three characters representing the three vocations of Christ.

They are all “Christ figures” in a way, but none are entirely so.

And would you agree that- as with the vocations of Christ represented by the three characters (Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo) that the roles of Mary are represented by the main women characters?

Galadriel- Full of Grace (Mary on Earth)
Elbereth- Full of Grace (Heavenly Mary)
Arwen- wife and mother of the Church
Eowyn- vanquisher of the demon seed

 

[Shiann]

Shiann:

Has anyone else noticed the significance of the Gifts of Galadriel and the Seven Sacraments?

Obviously we’ve all noted the link between lembas and the Eucharist.

What about the other gifts?

Aragorn’s sheath and brooch- representing marriage?

Frodo’s Phial of Earendil- representing the light of Baptism over Original Sin?

Legolas’ Bow- representing the grace of reconcilliation

Holy Orders- the belts given to Merry, Pippin, Boromir aid in their task of service to the whole party

Sam’s gift of Blessed Soil- representing us after we have been Confirmed. We are fertile in the Spirit and the Faith can grow within us.

Galadriel’s strand of hair- Last rights/Annointing of the Sick. Just as the hair was to offer a representation of the constant presence of Galadriel in his thoughts- Last rights Graces us with Jesus’ presence.

Any further comments?

 

[Fashina86]

tdnewts:

Thinking of the Gifts of Galadriel in terms of the Seven Sacraments is a new idea to me, even though I was aware of the lembas connection with the Eucharist. The elves even say that the sustaining power of lembas is strongest when it is the only source of food, which echos the lives of a few saints who lived on nothing but daily Communion.

The only thing that Tolkien wrote that could be considered an allegory is the story “Leaf by Niggle”. I don’t want to say what the allegory is if you haven’t read it, because it is a beautiful image and a great surprise. I will say that the Catholic doctrine involved is Purgatory and the process that occurs there (and gives the place its name).

Otherwise, you are absolutely right on about Tolkien disliking allegory. In the introduction to The Lord of the Rings, he called it “the purposed domination of the author”. So, most of the Catholic references in his works are based more on themes than direct allegories. I suppose some were intentional, and some apparently not.

Themes I’ve heard:

• death and resurrection - Gandalf the Grey becoming the White
• sacrifice - Gandalf again, but primarily Frodo. And there are other examples - Sam’s loyalty to Frodo to the end, despite his love for the Shire (and Rosie)
• humility - Sam
• redemption - Boromir
• Man as he was meant to be before the Fall - Faramir
• God’s ability to take good out of evil - Gollum’s part in the destruction of the Ring, even though it was done unwittingly
• the self-destructive result of following evil - Gollum, the Ringwraiths and others, including Sauron himself.

I’m sure there are many others. A couple of the possible direct references that I found interesting are:

• Galadriel, but more strongly Elbereth, respresenting the Blessed Virgin.
• The Ents respresenting the Church - in the sense that they are ancient and have deep roots! Well, I don’t know about the deep roots part…it would make walking difficult!

I heard a few of these from Joseph Pearce, who is the author of of a Tolkien biography that takes Tolkien’s Catholicism and the impact of it on his writings seriously. He has two books on Tolkien that have been published by Ignatius Press, and I recommend them both for anyone who would like to know more about Tolkien:

• Tolkien: Man and Myth - 1998 (the biography I mentioned)
• Tolkien: A Celebration - 1999 (a collection of essays from people who either knew Tolkien or studied his works)

The one thing that Tolkien definitely intended to show is that a myth is not false…it is a story meant to demonstrate truth. He thought myth is especially helpful in describing truth that would be hard to explain if you tried to lay out the facts. In it’s best sense, it gets to the meaning of the truth. When he explained this to C.S. Lewis in 1931, it was the turning point in Lewis’ conversion journey, because in a sense the Gospel stories can be seen as a myth. They are stories that sound too good to be true, but the joy of the matter is that they are true!

God Bless

wooohooo! Yay! This is what I had to write about my freshman year when it first came out onbideo and I wanted to watch it! This is exaclty what I told my mother (besides the fact that it is an absoltuely wonderful book, therefore has to be a good movie)… btw… where did you find all this information as to the symbolism and the parallels, because I wanted to find it for a reference for Mom.

 

[tdnewts]

Fashina86:

where did you find all this information as to the symbolism and the parallels, because I wanted to find it for a reference for Mom.

There are several good sources…and if you read the book with the knowledge that Tolkien was Catholic, you’ll make connections yourself. But to see what others have come up with, check out the two books I mentioned in my earlier post:

• Tolkien: A Celebration - Edited by Joseph Pearce. Ignatius Press, 1999. This book contains several essays and speechs by people who knew Tolkien or have studied his writings.
• Tolkien: Man and Myth - Joseph Pearce. Ignatius Press, 1998. This biography takes Tolkien’s faith and the impact of it on his writings very seriously. Tolkien’s perspective on myth and the impact it had on C.S. Lewis are discussed here (and several other places, including Lewis’ autobiography “Surprised by Joy”).

Both of the above books are quoted heavily at a site Shiann mentioned in the “Bored of the Rings” thread - mythictruth.com

I also had the opportunity to hear Joseph Pearce speak a couple of times because he is a visiting professor at Ave Maria University…before the University moved from nearby Ann Arbor to Florida.

Another really good source is The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien - Edited by Humphrey Carpenter. Houghton Mifflin, 1995. (there have been several editions. The first was published in 1981.)

There are several other sources, but these are a good place to start.

God Bless!