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dirtydog
Guest
Sure - go find the nearest Star Destroyer vs. Enterprise thread.
For fans of The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf vs. the Witch-King of Angmar
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dennisknapp
Guest
I don’t get it?
Peace
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dirtydog
Guest
I’m just teasing - there is a long and enduring “what if?” discussion between Star Wars fans and Trekkies about who would win if a Star Destroyer battled the Enterprise. This discussion struck me as similar.
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SpiritIsWilling
Guest
- Gandalf would massacre the Witch King, even though the Witch King is cool. If Gandalf could kill the Balrog, outsmart Saruman, and more or less save Helm’s Deep, I think he could kill the Witch King.
- The Death Star would KILL the Enterprise. No contest.
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Mom_of_one
Guest
Bingo! My sentiments exactly.
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antiaphrodite
Guest
sigh such a lot to read and not enough time…
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dennisknapp
Guest
My next topic is dwarf women.
What is the mystery behind them?
Why do we never see them?
Gimli does comment about them in the movie, but what does Tolkien have to about it?
Peace
What is the mystery behind them?
Why do we never see them?
Gimli does comment about them in the movie, but what does Tolkien have to about it?
Peace
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Shiann
Guest
My initial hunch is that they just weren’t significant to Tolkien’s overall complex philosophies. He hadn’t had a chance to flush out the details of them much… a bit like the orc women…
but I’ll see what I can dig up… interesting question.
but I’ll see what I can dig up… interesting question.
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dennisknapp
Guest
Ok, maybe dwarves was not the best new topic on this thread.
How about this one:
How long do you think Bilbo and Frodo survived when they dwelt in Valinor?
Also, one of the reasons Numenor fell was because one of their kings sailed to Valinor and set foot on the Blessed Land.
Why allow Frodo and Bilbo (both mortal) to set foot on the Blessed Land?
Peace
How about this one:
How long do you think Bilbo and Frodo survived when they dwelt in Valinor?
Also, one of the reasons Numenor fell was because one of their kings sailed to Valinor and set foot on the Blessed Land.
Why allow Frodo and Bilbo (both mortal) to set foot on the Blessed Land?
Peace
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tdnewts
Guest
Ok, I’ll bite on this one! Valinor is the eternal land of the elves and Valar, so I believe Bilbo and Frodo (and don’t forget Sam!) survived for eternity. Bilbo and Frodo, and Sam later, were all welcomed in Valinor because they were ring-bearers. It was a reward for carrying the burden of the One Ring. I don’t recall if there’s anything in Tolkien’s letters or in the Unfinished Tales that goes more deeply into it. If you’ve read the Silmarillion, you know that Earendil, a man, was able to approach the Blessed Land, so the Hobbits were not the first mortals to be allowed there.
The Numenoreans fell because they were forbidden to sail to the Blessed Land. Their motives were evil, unlike those of Earendil and the Hobbits. I think it’s very similar to the Garden of Eden. The Numenoreans were not satisfied with the wondrous gifts they were given and wanted more…and they tried to take what they wanted.
God Bless,
Tim
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Shiann
Guest
Ah, I will have to disagree here.
Letter #154 on mortals in the undying lands:
…the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their ‘kind’ cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will ‘die’ - of free will, and leave the world.
Tolkien, I think, had a strict attention to the “being” of his characters and their races. He did not sway from this philosophy.
Letter #246… a similar comment:
Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to ‘pass away’: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time.
Letter #154 on mortals in the undying lands:
…the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their ‘kind’ cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will ‘die’ - of free will, and leave the world.
Tolkien, I think, had a strict attention to the “being” of his characters and their races. He did not sway from this philosophy.
Letter #246… a similar comment:
Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to ‘pass away’: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time.
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tdnewts
Guest
Shiann,
Thanks! I haven’t read the Letters yet, so I was just speculating. So, there’s nothing in the Letters about the immortal and mortal races uniting with Eru at some point?
Thanks! I haven’t read the Letters yet, so I was just speculating. So, there’s nothing in the Letters about the immortal and mortal races uniting with Eru at some point?
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Shiann
Guest
I was just rereading this thread and caught this question… didn’t Frodo settle on an island just off the Blessed Land? I think the island was called Tol Eressea, or something like that. This would mean he didn’t actually achieve the “beatific vision” but that he was at a place of comfort and respite- but seperate from those who were destined for Valinor (Tolkein style Limbo?).
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dennisknapp
Guest
Does Tolkien ever mention how long they stayed wherever they ended up?
Bilbo was pretty old and Frodo was not young either.
Peace
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Shiann
Guest
No worries! I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was admonishing your idea… just offering another point of view.
Well many of the immortal races like the elves actually could reincarnate. Glorfindel being just one. Elves died and could choose to meet with the Valar to be reincarnated into their bodies. Those elves that did not choose to meet with the Valar were tainted and could not help but be drawn to Morgoth.
I found this quote by Tolkien when referencing his mortal characters:“Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought evil out of good and fear out of hope.”
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tdnewts
Guest
Ok, now I’ve pulled out The Silmarillion, although I think I should be in bed by now! :yawn: Just one more post first…Tol Eressea (or just Eressea) is a separate place from Valinor. The beginning of Chapter 5 in The Silmarillion explains the creation of Eressea. It was just east of Aman, the island where Valinor was located. It was in view of Aman and it was the “easternmost of the undying lands”, according to the Simarillion. Some elves were able to live in Aman, but at a certain point, they were only able to come as close as Eressea.
So, I think you’re right…I think the ships that sailed from the Grey Havens were bound for Eressea. Maybe there was some sharing of the “beatific vision” in Eressea, but I guess it would be of the Valar, not the One. It’s implied in the Silmarillion and in the appendix of LOTR that the “gift” of death for man is unity with Eru. One of my favorite quotes from LOTR is Aragorn’s final words to Arwen in the appendix, “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
BTW, It was Eressea, not Valinor, that was in sight of Numenor. The Numenoreans grew jealous of the Elves’ immortality and sailed to Eressea, not Valinor.
I think Tolkien’s purgatory is The Halls of Mandos. I believe that’s where the elves went when they were killed. It’s in the Silmarillion, too.
Is this interesting or just too much detail?
And we still haven’t answered Dennis’ question!
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Shiann
Guest
I know of no reference, and was not able to find any references to a date of death for either of these characters. But we do know that Samwise makes the journey 60 or so years later. I always hoped that this was evidence that Samwise and Frodo were able to meet one last time before either of them died.
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Shiann
Guest
Ok, was going from memory on my post from last night. I found a citation:In The History of Middle Earth, Tolkien describes that a Man in Aman would still have the soul and nature of a Man, and that “He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.” (“Morgoths Ring”)
The case of the hobbits in the Undying Lands, is different – they have already accepted their mortality, and “It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid.” In another note, Tolkien considered the mystery of what happens to mortal souls – are they summoned to Mandos? “The exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressëa after their ‘removal’ must be dubious and unexplained”
Not sure I understand the point here. I don’t remember ever offering a different opinion.
I agree that the Halls of Mandos serve as “purgatory”. It is where Elves await their choice, and where men await their eternal fate. But as we noted above, Tolkien mentioned that their fate was and must remain “dubious and unexplained” for whatever reason.
That said, I do think that Tol Eressea is still a “limbo” for those souls who for some reason can not or will not move to the final and total blessed lands… Purgatory is not the same as limbo.
I find it quite interesting.Is this interesting or just too much detail?
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dennisknapp
Guest
Thanks for your replies Shiann and tdnewts.
If mortal were meant to leave Middle-Earth after death, what of the Men under the Mountain; the Paths of the Dead.
They are mortal men, yet they are still in Middle-Earth. I know Isildor cursed them, but to curse them against their nature?
Peace
If mortal were meant to leave Middle-Earth after death, what of the Men under the Mountain; the Paths of the Dead.
They are mortal men, yet they are still in Middle-Earth. I know Isildor cursed them, but to curse them against their nature?
Peace
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Shiann
Guest
Because as you say below, Isildur curses them to walk the paths of the dead until they can redeem themselves. The swore an oath to fight with Isildur and they went back on that oath.
The army swore an oath, and Isildur upheld that oath even beyond death. I do not think Tolkien was as concerned with the particulars of any sort of afterlife philosophy. He mentioned the Undying Lands of the Elves and left all other death pretty much unexplained.
Spoke Malbeth the Seer:
Over the land there spreads a long shadow,
westward flowing wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles. To the tombs of kings
doom approaches. It is the awakening of
the dead. The Oathbreakers’ time comes:
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and will hear a horn ringing across hills.
Who [will be] holding the horn? Who [will be] calling them
from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom they swore.
From the North shall he come, need driving [him]:
He shall pass [the] Door to the Paths of the Dead.
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