For Greek Scholars: 1 Corinthians 11:23-24 - "This is Really my Body...."

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… the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
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OK, I heard an Apologist say the other day, that when St. Paul was explaining the Last Supper to the Church in Corinth, the words he used better translated to “This is Really My Body…”

Is this correct?
 
Thanks Tabcom.

The word I’m looking for

Ectin or Eimi

I’m having trouble looking up online with a Koine Greek translation.
 
I don’t think so. The word used is “estin”, which simply translates to “is”. I see nothing in the text that translates to “really” or “truly”.

The more literal translation is, “this is the Body of me.”
 
NotWorthy said:
OK, pretend I’m an idiot, and tell me how to do this.

I’m looking for “touto mou estin to soma.”

I see Porthos refuting it. But I believe it was Tim Staples who said “really is my body”. I’ll check his CD out again tomorrow.

John
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If you can’t read Greek, it may be difficult for you to find.

Click here. Go to v24, and find this in the text: τουτο μου εστιν το σωμα

“Really is my body,” is not in the text.

Where I come from, we call that a BIAS.
 
sandusky said:
If you can’t read Greek, it may be difficult for you to find.

Click here. Go to v24, and find this in the text: τουτο μου εστιν το σωμα

“Really is my body,” is not in the text.

Where I come from, we call that a BIAS.
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OK, Sandy, you’ve shown me that it says, τουτο μου εστιν το σωμα
, but you know that’s just Greek to me!

Now, how do I find out what that meant in the Koine Greek?
 
I did not hear what the apologist said so I cannot say anything directly about his comments in the past I have heard others make similar statements as well so I will base my thoughts of their statements.

I think we may be reading more into the comment than what was said or better the context in which it was said. The others I have heard were always stressing the translations of Paul’s 1 Cor 11: 23 - 24, and the corresponding text in Mark, Matthew and Luke into English must stress the thought that Jesus was speaking unequivically when he said the bread and wine were now His Body and Blood. I never heard a commentator deny the accurcacy of the translations as we have them,“tabcom” provided us with that, but again their stress was the meaning of the words or how best to express in english the thought and words of Jesus as written in greek.
 
You can be descended from Zeus and speak greek like it was 3000 years ago, but if you aren’t aware of the cultural implications, it doesn’t matter how many times you cross-translate, you will never get it.

When Jesus said to eat his body, he meant it LITERALLY, why? Because if he meant it symbolically, to eat someone’s flesh at the time would have meant to hate someone or hurt them. Taking this symbolical approach, this is what Christ would have meant:

“Christ had promised to everyone eternal life and a glorious resurrection in compensation for people beating him up, injuring him and persecuting him”

So yea…‘eat of my flesh’ - ‘beat me up and get everlasting life please’

Makes lots of sense :rolleyes:

I summarized it, from newadvent, just a few lines of the whole proof.

So as you can see, there is a slang significance too. It’s like these days, it’s not too uncommon to hear someone say ’ so eat me’ after arguing with someone.

This is also why Christ said, Truly, Truly I say to you unless you…etc. he made it a firm point. And that’s why many left him, because they finally understood He meant it literally. And one of the disciples said ‘who can hear this, it’s hard’ or something like that.

If it really was symbolic, then we can kiss our religion good bye. But it’s not, because if Christ meant it symbolically it would be ridiculous.

It was literal.
 
tabcom said:
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/8/6/1/0/8/webimg/84452765_o.jpg
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Parsing the word ego (my). . .

prep - Preposition
1 Gen - Genitive case
Sg - Singular
  1. A noun or pronoun in the
    genitive case (sometimes only implied);
    acting as the logical subject of the
    participle
example:

Matt 9:18 ‘while he was saying
these things, … a certain ruler
came’

Summary of Most Common Use Of Genitive Cases

Parsing the word eimi (is). . .

vi - indicative mood
Pres - Present tense
vxx - No Voice Stated
3 Sg - 3rd Person Singular

Parsing the word ho (the) . . .

t_ - definite Article
Nom - Nominative case
Sg - Singlur
n - neuter gender

Parsing the word soma (body) . . .

n_ - Noun
Nom - Nominative case
Sg - Singlur
n - neuter gender

The controversy arises over the words ‘the body’. If Paul was talking about the literal body of Christ, why is the words for ‘the body’ in the greek (ho soma) neuter gender?

– I have an opinion, but I’ll let the question hang in the air for a moment –
 
tabcom said:
The controversy arises over the words ‘the body’. If Paul was talking about the literal body of Christ, why is the words for ‘the body’ in the greek (ho soma) neuter gender?

– I have an opinion, but I’ll let the question hang in the air for a moment –
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Perhaps because after Christ’s death, he is no longer a male. He is God, and his pure spirit has no Gender. ‘The Body’ is no longer male, a spiritual body that has no gender that communes with the receiver through transubstantiation of the eucharist.

Something like that I think.
 
Harmony1988 said:
Perhaps because after Christ’s death, he is no longer a male. He is God, and his pure spirit has no Gender. ‘The Body’ is no longer male, a spiritual body that has no gender that communes with the receiver through transubstantiation of the eucharist.

Something like that I think.
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I’m sorry, but Jesus was ascended Body and Soul into heaven. He’s still a male.
 
NotWorthy . . . has my parsing of the greek been of any value to you?
 
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Notworthy:
Now, how do I find out what that meant in the Koine Greek?
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You would either parse the words, or use an interlinear Gk/English Bible.

Tabcom’s parsing is accurate.

The literal word order states: this of me is the body, or, this mine is the body.

Staple’s assertion foists his belief/theological position, onto the text—it’s not there.
 
tabcom said:
The controversy arises over the words ‘the body’. If Paul was talking about the literal body of Christ, why is the words for ‘the body’ in the greek (ho soma) neuter gender?

– I have an opinion, but I’ll let the question hang in the air for a moment –
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I’m not sure why this is important. I understand Jesus used this exact word in John chapter 6 when He walked on the water. “Do not be afraid. It is I (ego ami)”. I hoped I didn’t mess up the “ami” part.
 
sandusky said:
You would either parse the words, or use an interlinear Gk/English Bible.

Tabcom’s parsing is accurate.

The literal word order states: this of me is the body, or, this mine is the body.

Staple’s assertion foists his belief/theological position, onto the text—it’s not there.
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So here’s the problem, and again, I’m probably showing my ignorance. Is this an ancient Koine Greek to English translation? You could do regular Greek/English all day long, and you’re just spinning your wheels.

I’ve heard how people take the Petra (large rock) Petros (small rock) controversy and use Greek to English translations to prove their point. The only problem is, this large/small rock usage was only found in Greek poetry from maybe 9th-8th century BC. So it doesn’t fly in the face of closer scrutiny. Of course, one apologists easily explains this away by claiming that the large/small rock comparision came back into vogue for about 75 years in 1st century Israel. 😉

Now, in all honesty, you guys may have already shown me this. If so, it’s simply a show of my ignorance rather than my obstinacy (as you well know I can display! :)).

Tabcom and Sandusky, I’ve seen numerous Greek to English translators on the internet. Do any of these do Koine Greek to English?
 
NotWorthy said:
I understand Jesus used this exact word in John chapter 6 when He walked on the water.
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Parsing the word ego (I). . .

prep - Preposition
1 Nom - Nominative case
Sg - Singular

Nominative Case
A noun or pronoun that is the subject of the sentence is always in the nominative case.

It is the same word and case as in John 15:1 -
I am the true vine

The gender of the word is not present. However, the pronoun ego (I) is referring to Jesus in verse 19. gender = m.

To clearify, the word ego in 1 cor 11:24 is genitive case. Genitive case differs from nominative case, in so much, as it represents the logical subject – that is Jesus is talking about the bread, which is the body.
 
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