For he that is not against you is for you.

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have been considering Christian unity a lot lately and find the best arguments, in my opinion, for Protestantism is rarely brought into many of the ‘debates’ on these forums. Specifically, Mark 9:39 -40 and Luke 9:50; ***Mar 9:39 (9:38) But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. Mar 9:40 (9:39) For he that is not against you is for you., Luk 9:49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you. ***

I have also been reflecting on the teachings surrounding the requirements of Gentile circumcision and how some requirements of our faith seem to parallel that part of scriptures. Even with my sincere reflection on this teaching and how it might pertain to the many denominations of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, I cannot reconcile the fact that the Bible clearly teaches being of the same mind and judgment, promoting Christian unity.

In the past I have been very active on these forums and will admit that there were many times my posts lacked the charitability required of Christians. I am trying very hard not to post in that fashion again. I am not interested in widening any existing divides already among us.

With what I’ve stated above, I’ve noticed that there are many who post on these forums in a way that seems to be ‘against’ the other Christian faiths, either in part or wholly. This makes me wonder if these people are the ones creating, or promoting, dissensions that Paul warns about in many of his writings. Clearly they are not for and seem determined to be against.

It seems that many will argue that the Church is really an assembly of believers but they exclude the believers that are a part of the Catholic Church, just as there are many Catholics who seem to exclude other Christians as Christians because they are not directly a part of the Catholic Church.

None of us can expect acceptance if we, ourselves, do not accept other believers. The body of Christ cannot be divided and we must find a way to unify, in my understanding of the Gospel message.

Are much of our arguments the same as being of Paul, of Peter, or Christ and thereby making us a part of dividing the body of Christ?

Please share your thoughts…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m bumping this as I am interested in this subject for discussion. With 67 views, I can’t believe no one has shared their thoughts yet?

 

[wmscott]

I have been considering Christian unity a lot lately and find the best arguments, in my opinion, for Protestantism is rarely brought into many of the ‘debates’ on these forums. Specifically, Mark 9:39 -40 and Luke 9:50; ***Mar 9:39 (9:38) But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. Mar 9:40 (9:39) For he that is not against you is for you., Luk 9:49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you. ***

I have also been reflecting on the teachings surrounding the requirements of Gentile circumcision and how some requirements of our faith seem to parallel that part of scriptures. Even with my sincere reflection on this teaching and how it might pertain to the many denominations of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, I cannot reconcile the fact that the Bible clearly teaches being of the same mind and judgment, promoting Christian unity.

In the past I have been very active on these forums and will admit that there were many times my posts lacked the charitability required of Christians. I am trying very hard not to post in that fashion again. I am not interested in widening any existing divides already among us.

With what I’ve stated above, I’ve noticed that there are many who post on these forums in a way that seems to be ‘against’ the other Christian faiths, either in part or wholly. This makes me wonder if these people are the ones creating, or promoting, dissensions that Paul warns about in many of his writings. Clearly they are not for and seem determined to be against.

It seems that many will argue that the Church is really an assembly of believers but they exclude the believers that are a part of the Catholic Church, just as there are many Catholics who seem to exclude other Christians as Christians because they are not directly a part of the Catholic Church.

None of us can expect acceptance if we, ourselves, do not accept other believers. The body of Christ cannot be divided and we must find a way to unify, in my understanding of the Gospel message.

Are much of our arguments the same as being of Paul, of Peter, or Christ and thereby making us a part of dividing the body of Christ?

Please share your thoughts…

This is why I so like the teaching of the Catholic Church, specifically CCC818-819

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

I think that because of this we can have unity and still have our theological differences.

The times I really get POed is when we are attacked with all of the same old tired and many times over dispelled anti Catholic falsehoods and mean spirited rhetoric. It is because of these anti Catholic falsehoods and mean spirited rhetoric that I almost hardly post any more. I even started to burn out and left for a few months just to clear my head.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The times I really get POed is when we are attacked with all of the same old tired and many times over dispelled anti Catholic falsehoods and mean spirited rhetoric. It is because of these anti Catholic falsehoods and mean spirited rhetoric that I almost hardly post any more. I even started to burn out and left for a few months just to clear my head.

Hello wmscott! It’s been a long time. I too left for sometime, not posting at all.

I think you can admit that the ‘mean spirited rhetoric’ runs both ways, not that it’s important to try and lay blame on which side went first. It’s not. I, personally, know it’s hard to maintain the charitability required of Christians when we experience the ‘attacks’.

ALL Christians are members of the body of Christ. I believe our differences are due to our own limits of understanding and we cannot help one another grow in understanding by using the ‘mean spirited rhetoric’, even when it’s used against us.

Jesus prayed, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ But they, dividing his garments, cast lots. We have to strive to hold together, and quit dividing that which is His.

 

[JonNC]

=Prodigal Son1;7491108]I have been considering Christian unity a lot lately and find the best arguments, in my opinion, for Protestantism is rarely brought into many of the ‘debates’ on these forums. Specifically, Mark 9:39 -40 and Luke 9:50; ***Mar 9:39 (9:38) But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. Mar 9:40 (9:39) For he that is not against you is for you., Luk 9:49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you. ***

I have also been reflecting on the teachings surrounding the requirements of Gentile circumcision and how some requirements of our faith seem to parallel that part of scriptures. Even with my sincere reflection on this teaching and how it might pertain to the many denominations of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, I cannot reconcile the fact that the Bible clearly teaches being of the same mind and judgment, promoting Christian unity.

I agree.

In the past I have been very active on these forums and will admit that there were many times my posts lacked the charitability required of Christians. I am trying very hard not to post in that fashion again. I am not interested in widening any existing divides already among us.

My experience with is you leads me to believe you are harder on yourself than I see you.

With what I’ve stated above, I’ve noticed that there are many who post on these forums in a way that seems to be ‘against’ the other Christian faiths, either in part or wholly. This makes me wonder if these people are the ones creating, or promoting, dissensions that Paul warns about in many of his writings. Clearly they are not for and seem determined to be against.

It seems that many will argue that the Church is really an assembly of believers but they exclude the believers that are a part of the Catholic Church, just as there are many Catholics who seem to exclude other Christians as Christians because they are not directly a part of the Catholic Church.

Both sides are wrong.

None of us can expect acceptance if we, ourselves, do not accept other believers. The body of Christ cannot be divided and we must find a way to unify, in my understanding of the Gospel message.

Again, I agree.

Are much of our arguments the same as being of Paul, of Peter, or Christ and thereby making us a part of dividing the body of Christ?

We can point to Luther and Leo and say, “they are at fault for the divisions”, for example. But they both died nearly 500 years ago. We are as responsible for division as they, in my view, if our efforts are not to bring unity again. I give thanks for Vatican II and its attempts to bring reconciliation in His Church Militant.

Jon

 

[Nominefili]

We can point to Luther and Leo and say, “they are at fault for the divisions”, for example. But they both died nearly 500 years ago. We are as responsible for division as they, in my view, if our efforts are not to bring unity again. I give thanks for Vatican II and its attempts to bring reconciliation in His Church Militant.

Jon

Jon,

First, it’s nice to see you again! I’ve been away from the forums for a while. I agree that all Christians can learn from the scripture quoted above. We are quick to condemn one another for perceived errors in doctrine, but are much slower to realize that what divides us is more than trumped by what unites us.

The world we live in is not the world of 100 years ago. Christians must realize this and band together against our real enemy threats.

 

[rben20]

Just some thoughts. Protestants are our brothers. We disagree and go back and forth but in the end they would fight by our side. I am sure of that, especially in a world where God is mocked and there is no respect for religion. We cannot win the war when we are in a civil war with ourselves. We should discuss our differences charitably but remember each other always in these turbulent times.

 

[JonNC]

Just some thoughts. Protestants are our brothers. We disagree and go back and forth but in the end they would fight by our side. I am sure of that, especially in a world where God is mocked and there is no respect for religion. We cannot win the war when we are in a civil war with ourselves. We should discuss our differences charitably but remember each other always in these turbulent times.

And we may certainly have to “fight” by each others’ side before too long. Regardless of what is said by some, the Pope is the leader of the western Church, and holds the position of honor throughout all Christianity.

Jon

 

[cooterhein]

I think we’ll be able to stop talking about the possibility of unity and start enjoying its reality when Christians don’t feel like they have to convert one another. I also think that’s an acceptable endpoint for all concerned…it’s just that different people have different ways of getting there that they deem acceptable.

For some Catholics, the only acceptable route by which we can reach that point is the one where all Christians come home to Rome by conversion to Catholicism. Or through “conversion by proxy,” in the case of non-Catholic Christians that have retained apostolic succession…in that case, your bishops may work something out on your behalf.

When I see that kind of attitude, I don’t feel like those people need to convert…but I do feel like it’s an unrealistic goal that will never ever happen. From my point of view, this “One True Church” business is something that gets in the way of the stated goal-

Live in a world where Christians don’t feel like they have to convert one another.

It gets in the way because it’s never going to happen, and if universal Catholic membership is the only way you’ll be satisfied with Christian unity around the world, you will never be satisfied with Christian unity around the world and you will never live in a world where you don’t feel like you have to convert other Christians.

Again, this is just my perspective, but I don’t see that as a viable option. That path needs to be abandoned, and if anyone reading this currently insists on that way of doing things, you need to consider some of the alternatives.

:twocents:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think we’ll be able to stop talking about the possibility of unity and start enjoying its reality when Christians don’t feel like they have to convert one another. I also think that’s an acceptable endpoint for all concerned…it’s just that different people have different ways of getting there that they deem acceptable.

For some Catholics, the only acceptable route by which we can reach that point is the one where all Christians come home to Rome by conversion to Catholicism. Or through “conversion by proxy,” in the case of non-Catholic Christians that have retained apostolic succession…in that case, your bishops may work something out on your behalf.

When I see that kind of attitude, I don’t feel like those people need to convert…but I do feel like it’s an unrealistic goal that will never ever happen. From my point of view, this “One True Church” business is something that gets in the way of the stated goal-

Live in a world where Christians don’t feel like they have to convert one another.

It gets in the way because it’s never going to happen, and if universal Catholic membership is the only way you’ll be satisfied with Christian unity around the world, you will never be satisfied with Christian unity around the world and you will never live in a world where you don’t feel like you have to convert other Christians.

Again, this is just my perspective, but I don’t see that as a viable option. That path needs to be abandoned, and if anyone reading this currently insists on that way of doing things, you need to consider some of the alternatives.

:twocents:

You do present a problem, of course seeking conversion is not exactly accepting others as Christians. Yes Catholics feel there was one true Church started by Christ, but the Church does not limit the Holy Spirit to only working within the Catholic Church, as pointed out by wmscott already.

 

[agent_grey]

“For he that is not against you is for you.”

There is no “me” in that statement.

 

[JonNC]

“For he that is not against you is for you.”

There is no “me” in that statement.

Your point?

Jon

 

[flyonthewall]

I think this thread brings up a good point. All Christians are for Christ. Yes, we may all have beliefs that don’t line up with each other, but we are ALL for Christ.

 

[Nominefili]

From Romans 10 (ESV)

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[cooterhein]

You do present a problem, of course seeking conversion is not exactly accepting others as Christians. Yes Catholics feel there was one true Church started by Christ, but the Church does not limit the Holy Spirit to only working within the Catholic Church, as pointed out by wmscott already.

And yet people like you still feel that they have to convert people like me. What’s that say about the state of unity between people like you and people like me?

There’s a number of possible solutions to the problem, and one entails getting everyone home to Rome. That one seems to be pretty popular around places like this. But that’s not a realistically workable solution. What else can we look at?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And yet people like you still feel that they have to convert people like me. What’s that say about the state of unity between people like you and people like me?

There’s a number of possible solutions to the problem, and one entails getting everyone home to Rome. That one seems to be pretty popular around places like this. But that’s not a realistically workable solution. What else can we look at?

Where did that come from? Please show me where I, or anyone else that’s posted in this thread so far, has tried to convert another?

I am trying to get across the point that we are all connected in our faith in Christ. Some Protestants constantly use 2 Timothy 3:16 to support ‘sola scriptura’.

**

2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

**

Is scriptures trying to convert everyone to a unified Christian faith? If scriptures are ‘profitable’ to teach, to reprove, to correct and to instruct, aren’t they good for broadening a unity between Christians?

There are too many who use the scriptures to widen and maintain a divide in the body of Christ and that is against the scriptures in my opinion.

**

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

**

Christ prayed for everyone to be ‘perfectly one’. Should we not have the same prayer?

**

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

**

Go back and read through this thread again. I am trying to discuss how we are possibly more unified than most people will, or are willingly to, admit to.

Am I to take it that you are on these forums only for the purposes of conversions?

Why do Christians feel the necessity to ‘convert’ Christians? It seems apparent, to me anyway, that Christians don’t really view others as Christians if they feel the need to ‘convert’ them…

 

[JonNC]

And yet people like you still feel that they have to convert people like me. What’s that say about the state of unity between people like you and people like me?

There’s a number of possible solutions to the problem, and one entails getting everyone home to Rome. That one seems to be pretty popular around places like this. But that’s not a realistically workable solution. What else can we look at?

My own person view is that conversion is for those not already in Christ. Unity of the Church Catholic is more about reconciliation.

Jon

 

[Hiskid1973]

Just some thoughts. Protestants are our brothers. We disagree and go back and forth but in the end they would fight by our side. I am sure of that, especially in a world where God is mocked and there is no respect for religion. We cannot win the war when we are in a civil war with ourselves. We should discuss our differences charitably but remember each other always in these turbulent times.

yep, we got you back.I have been in many spirited threads over the years…Someone brings a prayer need…Bam, there all over it…I have stood together with many catholic brethren over the years in conservative forum threads…One of the few things that surprised me
was that I was ridiculed by a few catholics for my radical born anew experience…I was un churched and far from God and had a pretty eye opening conversion experience…

 

[JeanMichel]

I have been considering Christian unity a lot lately and find the best arguments, in my opinion, for Protestantism is rarely brought into many of the ‘debates’ on these forums. Specifically, Mark 9:39 -40 and Luke 9:50; ***Mar 9:39 (9:38) But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name and can soon speak ill of me. Mar 9:40 (9:39) For he that is not against you is for you., Luk 9:49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you. ***

I have also been reflecting on the teachings surrounding the requirements of Gentile circumcision and how some requirements of our faith seem to parallel that part of scriptures. Even with my sincere reflection on this teaching and how it might pertain to the many denominations of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, I cannot reconcile the fact that the Bible clearly teaches being of the same mind and judgment, promoting Christian unity.

In the past I have been very active on these forums and will admit that there were many times my posts lacked the charitability required of Christians. I am trying very hard not to post in that fashion again. I am not interested in widening any existing divides already among us.

With what I’ve stated above, I’ve noticed that there are many who post on these forums in a way that seems to be ‘against’ the other Christian faiths, either in part or wholly. This makes me wonder if these people are the ones creating, or promoting, dissensions that Paul warns about in many of his writings. Clearly they are not for and seem determined to be against.

It seems that many will argue that the Church is really an assembly of believers but they exclude the believers that are a part of the Catholic Church, just as there are many Catholics who seem to exclude other Christians as Christians because they are not directly a part of the Catholic Church.

None of us can expect acceptance if we, ourselves, do not accept other believers. The body of Christ cannot be divided and we must find a way to unify, in my understanding of the Gospel message.

Are much of our arguments the same as being of Paul, of Peter, or Christ and thereby making us a part of dividing the body of Christ?

Please share your thoughts…

Prodigal, what a refreshing post; thank you for your thoughtfulness. Personal holiness is developed when we reflect upon our own actions and stop attempting to find fault with others. This petty arguing that we have all seen by Catholics and non-Catholics alike is a reflection of where each is on their walk with Jesus Christ at that particular point in time. Sometimes we are simply short of patience, other times it is just a bad day, and other times it is because we truly feel a false sense of righteousness…pride. Regardless, a true Christian responds in love, acts with patience and charity. It is this path of emulating the Savior at all times and in all places that is so important for me.

What would it be like if we each saw our brothers and sisters in the same way that God sees them? Would we really bicker over some of their beliefs or would we rejoice in their knowing God? Thank you for making my day brighter, thank you for spending time in self-reflection, thank you for being a great example to me. His Peace be upon you always,

 

[Hiskid1973]

Amen, we know it won’t be good times before Christ’s return…We will have to care for one another and reach out to the lost around us… Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching