For Jewish people only

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As per OP Abraham was promised for the promised land of Israel. Israel or Jacob was from the off-spring of Abraham not before Abraham; so the contention is wrong.

It may be easy to understand my point if one reflects on the following:
  1. Abraham did not wage a war to occupy any lands that he was promised.
  2. Similarly Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) did not simply wage any wars to occupy lands.
  3. David and Jesus did not wage any wars to occupy lands.
I think therefore it is a right line of thinking that Abraham was not promised any lands to wage wars for but for the Kingdom of God which lies in the hearts and souls of the people.

There is no religious right to any lands to wage wars about; the right of inhabiting a region or land comes from the secular rights not from the religious ones…
Not only Abraham was told his descendants will live in Israel, but also to Jacob.

Moses waged war. Joshua waged war. David did to wage war against Philistines who were occupying land. Hell technically you can even say the Israelites occupied the land even from the beginning.

PS, what does war have to do with the OP question? Let alone represent Judaism?
 
From Abraham to David God has always led the Jews through wars and finally reach the promised land of Israel.It seems as though God always had true leaders whom most if not all believed in and when the prophisied victory or defeat it always came true.But since then they have been defeated and scattered.Now orthodox (the strict observant ones)still believe that the HS speaks through these people however over the passed 2 millineu there has been more and more Jews becoming less orthodox until today there is just a small fraction left.It would seem that less Jews actually believe these true orthodox Jewish leaders to be truely led by the HS.There has been no prophecies(of victories,or things to come which have taken place)for over 2,300 plus yrs.While do you believe God has been silent for so long?.
There are two different threads being discussed here. Your post can be seen as a discussion as to why the age of prophesy ended. The answer to that question has to deal with the purpose of prophesy as an opposing force to idolatry and magic. However, there is much that is negative about prophesy. It interferes with free will, with the ability of the individual to reason and follow Torah, to interact as an individual with God. If we know what is to happen, if we have an absolute authority to reason for us, we have negated free choice, we have negated the ability of the individual to reason and balance. On the one hand, the development of Oral law and the spreading knowledge and understanding of the written Torah, allowed the individual Jew to find and understand the balance between their good and evil inclinations using God’s guidebook- Torah. On the other hand, as the Gentile nations developed moral reasoning, the concepts of idolatry and its worse aspects were mitigated. So ended the age of prophesy.

The second aspect of the thread has to do with the eternal covenant and the relationship between God and the Jewish people. This subject comes up quite a lot on the forum due to Christian beliefs concerning a “new” covenant and the ambiguity of the role of the Jew as rejecting this “new” covenant. Jews of course do not have this problem. They know that God has promised that there will always be a remnant of the Jewish people and that with the coming of the Messiah, the Gentile nations will come to finally know and understand the true concept and definition of God. I have discussed this in the past and see fit to re-post some of my thoughts:

In the book of Esther the Jews are in exile in Persia, apparently abandoned by God. Evil forces are planning their destruction and they are seemingly doomed. It is only at the end of the story that we realize that behind a series of what appear to be unrelated events, was the guiding hand of God, who saves the Jews with whom He has made an eternal covenant.
So only in hindsight can we understand how God has brought the Jews from apparent desperation to something greater.
There are three major events in Jewish history.1) The going out of Egypt, receiving the Torah and coming to the promised land;2) the destruction of the second Temple and the diaspora;3) The rebirth of the nation of Israel in her land.
In each case these major events were accompanied by events that seemingly signaled punishment of the Jews. In hindsight we can see that this “punishment” brought about a fundamental and necessary change in the reformation of the Jewish people. Moses spends the last third of his life wandering in the desert, never to enter the promised land. Neither do all the people who left Egypt with him. In forty years all but the youngest have died, replaced by two new generations. However, in those forty years a new Jew has been born, freed of slavery, guided by Torah. God has established the conditions for the Jew to turn from slave to freeman, able to rule himself, to fight and win battles, to withstand paganism.

The diaspora of the Jews is accompanied not only by the destruction of the Temple but by one third of the Jewish people dying in uprisings against Rome. However, from this calamity a new Jew is born. One so committed to his Jewish identity he alone of all the ancient peoples will survive. Judaism will cause the creation of Christianity. The Christians will pass laws virtually excluding the Jews from participating in general society and in essence causing them to live in a form of autonomy. However these anti-Jewish laws will not only insure the survival of the Jewish people and prevent their assimilation but also foster the conditions for the massive intellectual development of Judaism. When the Jews begin to be allowed into general society in the 19th century they will do so from this unique advantage, fully equipped to contribute in all areas of life.

Christian anti-Semitism will lead to the Shoah. Again one third of the Jewish people will die. However, once again events will lead to the recreation of a new Jew. The diaspora Jew will be replaced by one who can understand the essence and need of the Jewish State, the meaning of “never again”. The animosity and terror surrounding the Jewish State will not only not weaken it but cause its unprecedented development.

These interrelationships come up time and again as God guides the Jewish people. The King of France contributes to the American revolution helping the Americans to defeat the British. The extra taxation will lead to the downfall of the King and his eventual replacement by Napoleon. Napoleon will bring about the changes which will lead to the beginning of the allowing of Jews into general society. This will come about in time for the Jews to begin to come to modern Zionism and participation in the events that will lead to their re-independence in their homeland. The first State to recognize Israel will be the United States and the United States will become Israel’s close ally.

 
CHOSENPEOPLE;If prophecy is God’s word there can be nothing negative about it.To know what is to happen doesn’t make your ability to reason change at all.It has nothing to do with your free will to think or make decistions.Im sorry but Im not a scripture scholar so I leave the debate to someone who is more knowledgable.I really can’t get into Esther and all the rest.
 
Christian anti-Semitism will lead to the Shoah. Again one third of the Jewish people will die. However, once again events will lead to the recreation of a new Jew. The diaspora Jew will be replaced by one who can understand the essence and need of the Jewish State, the meaning of “never again”. The animosity and terror surrounding the Jewish State will not only not weaken it but cause its unprecedented development.

These interrelationships come up time and again as God guides the Jewish people. The King of France contributes to the American revolution helping the Americans to defeat the British. The extra taxation will lead to the downfall of the King and his eventual replacement by Napoleon. Napoleon will bring about the changes which will lead to the beginning of the allowing of Jews into general society. This will come about in time for the Jews to begin to come to modern Zionism and participation in the events that will lead to their re-independence in their homeland. The first State to recognize Israel will be the United States and the United States will become Israel’s close ally.

So God accepts and agrees with the ways of the secular state of Israel? Which goes against Torah? God accepts?

And eternal covenant? I thought the promises would only be given, when the Torah is followed. Which has not been fully followed ever since the destruction of the temple. Since then the Rabbis have taken over and their words and decrees are as high as Gods decrees and commandments in the Torah.
 
So God accepts and agrees with the ways of the secular state of Israel? Which goes against Torah? God accepts?

And eternal covenant? I thought the promises would only be given, when the Torah is followed. Which has not been fully followed ever since the destruction of the temple. Since then the Rabbis have taken over and their words and decrees are as high as Gods decrees and commandments in the Torah.
About half of the 613 commandments of the Torah cannot be followed in the modern world. But they are still on the books, awaiting the rebuilding of the Temple. This notion of “Rabbinical Judaism,” as being in opposition to “Ancient Judaism,” is a position held mainly by former Jews who have converted to another religion. It is a view that Rabbis have somehow distorted the pure Judaism of the Bible. However, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh)–in particular the Torah–had a tradition from ancient times among the Pharisees (if not among the Sadducees or Essenes in the same way) as consisting of both the Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law, both given by G-d to Moses, and the latter codified in the Talmud and Mishnah. The argument against Rabbinical Judaism is similar, I think, to the non-acceptance by Protestants of the teachings of the early Church Fathers and the codification of doctrine in the Magisterium, since it is thought this is not in keeping with Scriptural interpretation. Both Judaism and Catholicism have an important Oral Tradition; neither is a sola scriptura religion. The Torah must be interpreted, at times, metaphorically and according to several layers of meaning, since many of its passages appear otherwise unclear or contradictory. Even the Karaite Jews admit to this. Hence, the mystical Zohar from the Kabbalah, which Chasidic Jews study and use as an aid to their interpretation of the hidden meanings beneath the literal meaning.
 
About half of the 613 commandments of the Torah cannot be followed in the modern world. But they are still on the books, awaiting the rebuilding of the Temple. This notion of “Rabbinical Judaism,” as being in opposition to “Ancient Judaism,” is a position held mainly by former Jews who have converted to another religion. It is a view that Rabbis have somehow distorted the pure Judaism of the Bible. However, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh)–in particular the Torah–had a tradition from ancient times among the Pharisees (if not among the Sadducees or Essenes in the same way) as consisting of both the Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law, both given by G-d to Moses, and the latter codified in the Talmud and Mishnah. The argument against Rabbinical Judaism is similar, I think, to the non-acceptance by Protestants of the teachings of the early Church Fathers and the codification of doctrine in the Magisterium, since it is thought this is not in keeping with Scriptural interpretation. Both Judaism and Catholicism have an important Oral Tradition; neither is a sola scriptura religion. The Torah must be interpreted, at times, metaphorically and according to several layers of meaning, since many of its passages appear otherwise unclear or contradictory. Even the Karaite Jews admit to this. Hence, the mystical Zohar from the Kabbalah, which Chasidic Jews study and use as an aid to their interpretation of the hidden meanings beneath the literal meaning.
My argument is not necessarily against Rabbinical Judaism. My argument is how can the Jews inherit Gods promises that came with the covenant, when part of the deal was the Jews to uphold every decree and commandment set forth in the Torah.
 
My argument is not necessarily against Rabbinical Judaism. My argument is how can the Jews inherit Gods promises that came with the covenant, when part of the deal was the Jews to uphold every decree and commandment set forth in the Torah.
G-d is merciful and forgiving as well as just. Although Moses himself said that the Law is not beyond our means to uphold, no Orthodox Jew follows everything to the letter all the time. But Judaism believes in people’s growth as much as their actual accomplishment. As has been said: “The Torah is a tree of life for those who cling to Her.” Clinging to a tree is not always easy and requires great effort at times, but G-d has promised to sustain our efforts and good intentions.
 
This was predicted back in the OT then,that the Jews would lose the promised land and then it would finally be restored to the Jews(which we understand as today’s modern state of Isreal)So the Jews believe Yahweh God restored it for them.
Incorrect, see below article and I hope meltzerboy can give this in layman’s terms, as to describe the article:
**
June 16th 2008, 05:37 AM**
This is not the complete article:

IV. EVERY KING IS COMMANDED TO BUILD THE BEIT HAMIKDASH

LINK (kadosh.co.il/mkdsh020.html)

It appears that the requirement that appointing a king must proceed building the Beit HaMikdash does not just refer to a king of the Davidic dynasty, but appointing any king will suffice. The source for this Talmudic statement is from the Biblical verse (Shmot (Exodus) 17:16) “because Hashem has sworn by His Throne that Hashem will have war with Amalek …” This verse refers to Yehoshua (Joshua) , who was not from the tribe of Yehuda (Judah) , but was nevertheless called a king for the puprpose of these three mitzvot that the Jewish People was commanded-- to appoint a king, to wipe out the descendants of Amalek, and to build the **Beit HaMikdash (The Temple in Jerusalem or Holy Temple) - . Thus, the mitzvah to appoint a king, as well as the order of events, does not only refer to a Davidic king, but also to king from other tribes.(3)
**
Definition:


**(The primary meaning of Mitzvah refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God. It is a word used in Judaism to refer to the 613 commandments …)
**

It is also apparent from the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim 1:2, where he learns the halacha (Mosaic laws) that appointing a king proceeds wiping out Amelek from KING SHAUL.(Saul) In Halacha 3, he learns (based on the Sifri - classical Jewish legal Biblical) that appointing a king requires a court of 71 judges and a prophet from YEHOSHUA (Joshua). In Hilchot Beit HaBechirah he states “We do not add to Jerusalem or to the Temple Courtyard, except by a king … and MOSHE was a king.” He also writes in Hilchot Channuka (laws concerning Chanukah) 2:1, “They appointed a king from the KOHANIM (Cohen priest, or Kohan), and the kingdom returned to Israel for more than 200 years …”
**
Definitions: **

**(Hilchot Melachim - Laws concerning the Messiah)
(Hilchot Beit HaBechirah, which describes the construction of the Temple, but not the details of the priests)


We see that the mitzvah to appoint a king means ANY Jewish king, not just from Davidic descent or from the tribe of Yehuda. Accordingly, the laws in Hilchot Melachim apply for all generations, and certainly while we return from Exile, a kingdom could arise, before Mashiach comes, as specified in most of the chapters in Hilchot Melachim. The Mashiach, however will be a descendant of David and Shlomo, and his characteristics and deeds are spelled out in the LAST chapters of Hilchot Melachim.

Additionally, in “Igeret Teiman”, where the Rambam describes the appearing of Mashiach, he brings down that at the first stage he will arise without people aware of his lineage. “People will not know of his arising.”
**
Definition: **

(The Epistle to Yemen or Yemen Epistle (Hebrew: אגרת תימן, Iggeret Teman**) was an important communication written by Maimonides and sent to the Yemenite …)**

A similar description of the End of Days is brought by the Tosafot Yomtov in his commentary to the Mishnah (Ma’aser Sheni 5:2), “It comes out that until the Davidic Kingdom, our enemies will have a little bit of rule over us, as was in the beginning of the Second Temple period.” Here is where he deals with the rebuilding of the Beit HaMikdash (as we brought previously), and according to this a limited Jewish kingdom, even not fully independent, is good enough to rebuild the Beit HaMikdash, as was the case in the time of Ezra.(4)

It also appears that according to the Ramban (Rav Moshe Nachmanides), in his commentary to the Torah (Bamidbar (Numbers) 16:21), that the mitzvah of building the Beit HaMikdash does not just apply to a Davidic king. According to him, the plague in the time of King David after counting the People “was a punishment on Israel for delaying building the Beit HaMikdash, that the Ark went from tent to tent like a stranger in the land, and the Tribes did not wake up and say, ‘Let us seek Hashem and build a house for His Name.’” The Kingdom of Israel was limited in the era of the Judges, before King David was anointed. As we said, the Rambam rules accordingly in the beginning of Hilchot Melachim, that the mitzvah is upon any king, not just a king from the Davidic Dynasty, to build the Beit HaMikdash.

Definition:
(Hilchot Melachim: The laws of kings or Messiah)


It is also apparent from the Rambam’s discussion in the “More Nevuchim” (Guide to the Perplexed) (vol. 3, chap. 45) that the precedence of appointing a king before building the Beit HaMikdash applies to appointing any king, not just from the David Dynasty. “To this comes the mitzvah that the Beit HaMikdash will not be built before establishing a king to command the building of the Beit HaMikdash and to remove dispute, as we explained in Sefer Shoftim.” The role of a king is to prevent civil war in Israel over the rule of the Temple Mount, and thus only after a king is appointed does the mitzvah to build the Beit HaMikdash apply. This obligation, to prevent civil war, applies to any king, even appointed before Mashiach comes from the Davidic Dynasty. According to this, it is possible that the Beit HaMikdash can be built before Mashiach comes, according to the opinion of the Jerusalem Talmud.
 
I don’t know what Valentino is referring to. However, wasn’t there a conflict between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews over the establishment of Israel? One of my favorite movies is “The Chosen”. The Orthodox in the movie were very upset about the establishment of Israel. That it was showing a lack of patience and not waiting for God to do it.
Yes, there is still a conflict between Orthodox and Reform Jews because of the authenticity of the Torah both the written and the oral. Orthodox believe that both the Written and Oral Torah are of divine origin, and represent the word of God which is a contrast from the Reform movement, the “Oral Law” is not seen as divinely given at Sinai, and that the written Torah did come from God, but were transmitted by humans and contain a human component, in other words, they wanted the laws to reflect the current times since it was not recognized (basically) in cement - (??), also there’s a big difference even with observance of the dietary laws (kashrut) and divorce (parties to obtain a get (under halacha, or Jewish law) …etc and the law of return.

Orthodox conversions are the only one that the state of Israel will recognize, again this deals with conversion. If a father marries a non Jew and tries to enter Israel to live with his wife and children, if the wife converted under the Orthodox religion - it would be recognized. There are other concerns on the issue of the Law of Return, but this is one reason.
 
My argument is not necessarily against Rabbinical Judaism. My argument is how can the Jews inherit Gods promises that came with the covenant, when part of the deal was the Jews to uphold every decree and commandment set forth in the Torah.
all 613?? You’re bound to miss something…remember this verse "Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Adam - had only "one’ commandment to fulfill in the Garden, and we know that the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

The question to all of this is, how did Satan know the law to reinterpret the meaning to deceive her? and I quote, "He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” …who told the serpent the law?

Noah (walked with God) - Genesis 9, God reestablished the covenant - as within the garden because scripture states, a third add on - and that man can eat meat, besides to be “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth." - since this was read in Genesis 1:18 - but it was said to subdue it and rule over.

Abraham (walked with God)- in Genesis 17, was told to walk faithfully and blamelessly before God, which 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

The whole point is that God, is the only one who can help us achieve perfection through his help. When Moses addressed the Israelite in the desert, he said “Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 **But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.” **

The Israelite needed to understand that without God help, they couldn’t have been redeemed - Saved, or be lead out of the land of the Egyptians. God wanted to show them that it took His right arm to save them, "Exodus 6:6 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment.” …

The verse in Exodus 4 is stated with much understanding, "11 The LORD said to him, “Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.”

Like Moses the Israelites had to begin to understand who God really is - they were oppressed for 400 years. How many miracles did the Israelite view in the desert? - and the question could extend to the first commandment, And God spoke all these words: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, You shall have no other gods before me.” (According to the Medieval Sefer ha-Chinuch (see explanation down below), the first four statements concern the relationship between God and humans) God delivered the Israelites out of bondage - miracle one! The second miracle was when the Israelite’s crossed the “Yam Soof” which means the “Sea of Reeds.” Exodus 13:17-15:26

What happened right after these miracles - “There were those who trusted implicitly in the Almighty and who jumped into the sea and found themselves on dry land. The other group did not have such a high level of trust in the Almighty - even though they had seen the Ten Plagues afflict the Egyptians and had witnessed the miracles accompanying the Exodus from Egypt - they waited until they saw the dry land and then went on the dry land in the midst of the sea.”

Miracles can not give all complete = trust and faith. It is not the central for the believer or even the one’s who remain faithful to God. Despite the many years of slavery, the miracles of leaving Egypt couldn’t produce all persons (Israelites) to wipe out the bitterness (hardness of heart) - as God (Himself) knew this: Read the history of the Jewish people - the history is in the prayer with Nehemiah, Ester, Judith- line 19, Tobit - first couple of lines.

The miracle on the coming of the Messiah (a calling from God - to open the Messianic age) that time was ordered by God (Isaiah 55:11) for all to see (Isaiah 49:8) - but just like the Exodus - many will believe and others will be like those at the sea of reeds when it comes to trust and faith - sometimes slavery (even non visible forms of slavery - sin) can make a person’s heart and soul turn onto deaf ears. Miracles (when given) are like the final touches to faith - having the faith to hold onto until the Messiah comes, is a miracle.

continue:
 
My argument is not necessarily against Rabbinical Judaism. My argument is how can the Jews inherit Gods promises that came with the covenant, when part of the deal was the Jews to uphold every decree and commandment set forth in the Torah.
Blessings,
Mary

Reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_ha-Chinuch

Sefer ha-Chinuch (ספר החינוך Hebrew: “Book of Education”, often simply “the Chinuch”) is a work which systematically discusses the 613 commandments of the Torah. It was published anonymously in 13th century Spain. The work’s enumeration of the commandments (Hebrew: mitzvot‎; sing. mitzvah) is based upon Maimonides’ system of counting as per his Sefer Hamitzvot; each is listed according to its appearance in the weekly Torah portion and the work is structured correspondingly.[1]

The Chinuch separately discusses each of the 613 commandments, both from a legal and a moral perspective. For each, the discussion starts by linking the mitzvah to its Biblical source, and then addresses the philosophical underpinnings of the commandment (here, termed the “shoresh”, or “root”). Following this, the Chinuch presents a brief overview of the halakha (practical Jewish law) governing its observance - usually based on Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah - and closes with a summary as to the commandment’s applicability.
 
About half of the 613 commandments of the Torah cannot be followed in the modern world. But they are still on the books, awaiting the rebuilding of the Temple. This notion of “Rabbinical Judaism,” as being in opposition to “Ancient Judaism,” is a position held mainly by former Jews who have converted to another religion. It is a view that Rabbis have somehow distorted the pure Judaism of the Bible. However, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh)–in particular the Torah–had a tradition from ancient times among the Pharisees (if not among the Sadducees or Essenes in the same way) as consisting of both the Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law, both given by G-d to Moses, and the latter codified in the Talmud and Mishnah. The argument against Rabbinical Judaism is similar, I think, to the non-acceptance by Protestants of the teachings of the early Church Fathers and the codification of doctrine in the Magisterium, since it is thought this is not in keeping with Scriptural interpretation. Both Judaism and Catholicism have an important Oral Tradition; neither is a sola scriptura religion. The Torah must be interpreted, at times, metaphorically and according to several layers of meaning, since many of its passages appear otherwise unclear or contradictory. Even the Karaite Jews admit to this. Hence, the mystical Zohar from the Kabbalah, which Chasidic Jews study and use as an aid to their interpretation of the hidden meanings beneath the literal meaning.
As in the case with the law of return…what happens when rabbinical law and the Torah conflict? or can it? or has it ever? - how can one law supersede another? very confusing.
 
Its just, Judaism has a lack of spirit.
I wouldn’t go so far to say they lack spirit, perhaps they have too much spirit, but are therefore incapable of placing it in a way others can understand. Afterall, Israel has a program that trains practically every one of its citizens to fight.
There has been a resurgence of interest in Orthodox Judaism among young Jews in the past twenty years. So it is not necessarily the case that orthodoxy is diminishing. In fact, Reform Judaism is the branch of Judaism that has currently been dwindling in numbers. Apart from this, however, the ability to be patient with G-d is a matter of faith. We humans are, by nature, impatient, rather self-centered creatures, wanting immediate, instant gratification wherever we may be able to obtain it. We are too often almost demanding of G-d to change our lives according to our own will and time table rather than His. We seem to need miracles on a grand scale in order to believe, even though our own prophets of yore, including Moses, warned us not to believe on the basis of miracles alone. And even when these miracles were provided to us in ancient times, we still often refused to continue to believe, asking instead of G-d: “What have You done for me lately?” G-d has another plan for us. He wants us to be ready to receive Him, and therefore has given us free will–including our evil inclination as well as our better potential–and continues to test that free will so that we may learn to rise above our human imperfections. It is difficult to be a Jew, as it is to be a Christian. It is not a self-serving religion; it is not a natural, humanistic religion; it is not designed so that we may always feel happy and satisfied. And yet, if one looks closely, “small” miracles do present themselves regularly in our lives: the miracle of inner peace of mind, so much deeper than fleeting happiness and gratification; the miracle of selfless giving to others, so much more gratifying than selfish taking; the miracle of a loving and personal relationship with G-d, so much more joyful and trustworthy than our unstable relationships with the material possessions of this world.
Your words speak to me, man. That’s beautiful.
In the movie you refer to, “The Chosen,” the Orthodox father (played by Rod Steiger) was a member of the Satmar sect. I saw the film many years ago but still remember it quite well.
I went on youtube to see if I could find a trailer of this movie, “The Chosen”, but I couldn’t find anything. Is it under a different title? 😦
This is not really a good comparison. Nobody really knows if they are descendants of Roman Citizens. Not everyone in Rome was a citizen. Additionally, the language and all their Pagan religions are gone.
Well, as a Spaniard, I know that my roots have a possibility of coming from the Visigoth kingdom. But that’s not necessarily something proud of for me, since the Visigoth’s were Arians, not Catholics, despite the fact that all the peasantry was Catholic; or most.

And that’s not exactly true. We still have classical Latin. Thanks, at least, to the efforts of certain church people (i.e. the CC) for keeping it around.
There is no religious right to any lands to wage wars about; the right of inhabiting a region or land comes from the secular rights not from the religious ones…
I would have to disagree with you on that point. I believe that, when a land is holy, it becomes a symbol of importance to groups of people. When we’re denied that land; to visit, pray, sacrifice, do whatever our faiths tells us to do, we’re being taken something which is a part of us. Therefore, if war must come, in order to be able to continue with visits, then it must be so. Would you not feel attacked if you weren’t allowed to visit Mecca on the month of Dhu al-Hijjah? I know I would.
Does that include thous wars Mohammed led? Means he was wrong then.
I wouldn’t say Mohammed was wrong. He did make the pagan Arabs believers of God, didn’t he? How many Christians were going to Arabia in those days? By the looks of the heightened number of pagans in the 600s and 700s, it didn’t look like many.
The diaspora of the Jews is accompanied not only by the destruction of the Temple but by one third of the Jewish people dying in uprisings against Rome. However, from this calamity a new Jew is born. One so committed to his Jewish identity he alone of all the ancient peoples will survive. Judaism will cause the creation of Christianity. The Christians will pass laws virtually excluding the Jews from participating in general society and in essence causing them to live in a form of autonomy. However these anti-Jewish laws will not only insure the survival of the Jewish people and prevent their assimilation but also foster the conditions for the massive intellectual development of Judaism. When the Jews begin to be allowed into general society in the 19th century they will do so from this unique advantage, fully equipped to contribute in all areas of life.
Need I remind you that Jews spent over a thousand years living amongst Poles(Who were Catholic) in good harmony and tolerance? Whatever you could claim on Christian intolerance, really holds not so much water, when you see that most jews then preferred living in Europe than in the Near-East.

-MontChevalier
 
The ancient Romans could not fathom how, if the God of the Jews was the one almighty God, the Jews had fallen under Rome’s power.

The Roman Empire has long since crumbled to dust. All the other nations and peoples of the Roman empire are no more. Only the Jews remain. It is seemingly impossible that they of all the world’s ancient peoples have survived, but they have. Even more remarkable, that they have survived despite the animosity against them, through centuries of adversity aimed to make them victims for their stubborn insistence to continue to remain being Jews.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jews survived.

They are no longer a vassal state but have regained sovereignty over their homeland. This too is a seeming impossibility. They regained their independence a mere three years after one third of the Jewish people were destroyed in the genocide of the Shoah. They regained their independence despite being immediately attacked by the armies of five nations. In both cases the world stood by and watched. When Hitler rose to power the world shut their borders to the Jews leaving the Jews to his murderous wrath. During World war II not one country could spare one bomb on even one mission to put Auschwitz out of commission for even a single day. When the Jewish state was attacked not one country sent one soldier to help the survivors of Auschwitz. Instead they imposed arms embargos to prevent the Jews from defending themselves.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God.The Jewish nation was not extinguished forever in the ashes of the Shoah, the Jews won their war of re independence.

That the Jewish state survives today is also a seeming impossibility. It sits on a mere one per cent of the land of the middle east, in an area roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, surrounded by a billion enemies. It could not possibly survive but it does. Despite its precarious position it is seemingly so strong as to be deemed an “aggressor” by those who wish it ill.

The Jews make up a mere one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population. The have only been allowed to integrate within general western society in the last two hundred years. So small in numbers it is a seeming impossibility that Jews should be even seen or felt. However, despite their minuscule numbers their contributions to society are so vast that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”.

The ancient Romans could not fathom the God of the Jews. Today, their descendants cannot look at the Jew and not believe in God.
I do not think it can be overstated how impressive your response is. I really enjoyed reading this.
 
The ancient Romans could not fathom how, if the God of the Jews was the one almighty God, the Jews had fallen under Rome’s power.

The Roman Empire has long since crumbled to dust. All the other nations and peoples of the Roman empire are no more. Only the Jews remain. It is seemingly impossible that they of all the world’s ancient peoples have survived, but they have. Even more remarkable, that they have survived despite the animosity against them, through centuries of adversity aimed to make them victims for their stubborn insistence to continue to remain being Jews.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jews survived.

They are no longer a vassal state but have regained sovereignty over their homeland. This too is a seeming impossibility. They regained their independence a mere three years after one third of the Jewish people were destroyed in the genocide of the Shoah. They regained their independence despite being immediately attacked by the armies of five nations. In both cases the world stood by and watched. When Hitler rose to power the world shut their borders to the Jews leaving the Jews to his murderous wrath. During World war II not one country could spare one bomb on even one mission to put Auschwitz out of commission for even a single day. When the Jewish state was attacked not one country sent one soldier to help the survivors of Auschwitz. Instead they imposed arms embargos to prevent the Jews from defending themselves.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God.The Jewish nation was not extinguished forever in the ashes of the Shoah, the Jews won their war of re independence.

That the Jewish state survives today is also a seeming impossibility. It sits on a mere one per cent of the land of the middle east, in an area roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, surrounded by a billion enemies. It could not possibly survive but it does. Despite its precarious position it is seemingly so strong as to be deemed an “aggressor” by those who wish it ill.

The Jews make up a mere one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population. The have only been allowed to integrate within general western society in the last two hundred years. So small in numbers it is a seeming impossibility that Jews should be even seen or felt. However, despite their minuscule numbers their contributions to society are so vast that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”.

The ancient Romans could not fathom the God of the Jews. Today, their descendants cannot look at the Jew and not believe in God.
i see what your saying.Because of their longevity God is must still be with His people and wants them to survive.To me it doesn’t seem so miraculous that they survived.I know and understand why you would think this so.I know that the Jews still remain because of their belief in the covenant which holds them together and you do thank you for your views.
valentino,

I think the survival of the Jews is a miracle and speaks to God’s love for them and His eternal Covenant with them.

Even your Catholic faith acknowledges the special relationship between God and the Jewish people.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

God chooses Abraham


59 In order to gather together scattered humanity God calls Abram from his country, his kindred and his father’s house,16 and makes him Abraham, that is, “the father of a multitude of nations”. "In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."17

60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.19

61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions.

God forms his people Israel

62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.20

63 Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD”, and “the first to hear the word of God”,21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.

64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23 Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.24

Peace,
Anna
 
I wouldn’t go so far to say they lack spirit, perhaps they have too much spirit, but are therefore incapable of placing it in a way others can understand. Afterall, Israel has a program that trains practically every one of its citizens to fight.

Most Israelis, males and females, are drafted into the military at the age of 18. Exceptions are Israeli Arabs, confirmed pacifists, and women who declare themselves religiously observant. Compulsory service is three years for men, and 20 months for women. Circassians and Bedouin actively enlist in the IDF. Since 1956, Druze men have been conscripted in the same way as Jewish men, at the request of the Druze community. Men studying full-time in religious institutions can get a deferment from conscription; Non-Jews who don’t live in Israel can’t volunteer for the IDF. But if they grew up in Israel, they can (and do) serve in the IDF. The Druze are proof of this.

Following compulsory service, Israeli men become part of the IDF reserve forces, and are usually required to serve several weeks every year as reservists, until their 40s.
I went on youtube to see if I could find a trailer of this movie, “The Chosen”, but I couldn’t find anything. Is it under a different title? 😦
 
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