For JWs and LDS

[excaliber]

I don’t know much about LDS, I was raised Jehovahs witness and like Mormons I don’t know why the LDS and JW’s are compared when they are very different.

to answer the question.
To emphasize false prophets over a great apostasy would not strengthen the JW position any more then for Roman Catholics to emphasize the great apostasy over
False prophets.

Something else to consider is that
Charles Taz Russle is not viewd as a prophet. If he was, he isn’t anymore. The Governing body for a jw is the faithfull slave.

The people that follow C.T. Russel as a prophet are the international bible students, not Jehovahs witnesses.

Anyway in summary:
Catholics use Tradition and history and the bible as foundations. Emphasis on false prophets, strengthens a Catholic not to turn away from tradition.

Jehovahs witnesses Use:
Bible knowledge and evangelization and there (MODERN) organization as foundations. So the great apostacy
Strengthens a JW to stay FAR away from any other church,and explains how young the organization is.

Why would you expect anyone…Catholic,Mormon or Jehovahs witness to place emphasis on anything that is not in there best intrest to emphasize?

 

[rmcmullan]

I agree that there was (and continues to be!) an apostasy. People continue to fall into apostasy, as those that are taken in by gospels contrary to what Paul (and Jesus!) preached.

Let’s be exact in the meaning of the word apostacy. I am taking it in its literal sense–the end of the Apostles.

Paul and the other apostles were combating heresy and apostasy in their teachings and exhortations at the time. In so doing, they were exercizing the authority Jesus left them. It is an early example of that authority at work.

If Paul was battling apostacy, he was battling people who would not accept his Apostolic authority as you say. But he was an apostle and so the only apostacy there could be was be the rebellious. For the church (those who sought his Apostolic authorty), there was no apostacy.

So, if the apostasy had not occurred at the time of Paul’s writings, the LDS and the JWs must believe it happened afterwards. Of course, this is the belief of each church, that the apostasy occurred following the death of the last apostle… but when?

Not sure what you’re asking for here. You want to know who was the last apostle called and when he died and was unable to pass along his priesthood authority to one worthy to receive it? If that’s what you’re asking, I don’t know how you can even find that out. What difference does it make?

I don’t believe a Great Apostasy occurred because it would have had to have been complete and total, which I think is simply impossible (and let’s not forget Jesus’ promises).

I guess there’s an inexactness in terms here. There’s an apostacy which is personal. It is a turning away from God. Likewise, a nation or people can experience an apostacy if they turn away. But this argument is usually over priesthood authority.

When it comes down to it, we are following Holy men whose authority we accept. There is an historical record of the Jews and Jesus’ ministry. But a lot of different ideas of how that translate into practices. As a sincere and devout person seeking God, we need to start a quest. We can either find some one whose preaching is easy to accept or we find some one who we can believe or some one who we trust. If we can find some one we trust, even if they teach difficult things, we can accept it. It’s wide open I know but to me, religion is a search for truth.

Much of what we accept is taken on authority after a certain point. We like to believe the people we follow are Holy men who are dedicated to God and the truth. We both believe that.

Now the RC believe that the actual position of Apostle is no longer necessary and have a Pope and tradition and so on. But it is only a claim.

Protestants claim that the RC church became corrupted and does not accept its authority, only that of the “revealed word”. I could buy that almost but then they set themselves up as the authority and tell people what to believe. And then they come up with crazy stuff like saved by grace and OSAS.

LDS claim authority–a priesthood authority, but that it can be lost through unrighteousness. And they have apostles. And the ministrations of the Holy Ghost never really left man. And revelation continues to guide him and His church on earth.

You’ve read the story of Jonah (and the whale.) The Lord sends his prophets to call his people to repent. When the people become so wicked that they slay the prophets, he send his Son. Then they slay the son. The prophets and apostles that follow the son are slain as well. When there is no more priesthood leadership, that is an apostacy.

Luke 20:9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

 

[comebacktome]

Is it correct to say that Joseph Smith and the latter day prophets have been able to accomplish what the Son of God was unable to?
The church Jesus established lasted < 100 years, but Joseph Smith restored church now has, what? 150 years behind them? To my mind, there is something quite unsavory about a man being able to do what Christ could (apparently) not.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Let’s be exact in the meaning of the word apostacy. I am taking it in its literal sense–the end of the Apostles.

Really? You mean that John was not “translated” and isn’t still roaming the earth? (Never did understand that–how can all the Apostles be dead if one is not according to the LDS?)

But if we are talking about a real apostasy, why not talk about the one that is obvious–the one about Jesus being the Bread of Life? Oh wait–that would show that Mormons and JWs are part of this apostasy. Or perhaps we can speak about another obvious one, the one where individuals leave the Church that Jesus founded. Perhaps that was what the Bible meant about “itching ears”.

Honestly, history shows that there was not a total apostasy. There has been an unbroken chain of authority in the Catholic Church starting when Jesus chose Peter to Peter’s successor, Pope Benedict XVI. Deal with it!

 

[rmcmullan]

Honestly, history shows that there was not a total apostasy. There has been an unbroken chain of authority in the Catholic Church starting when Jesus chose Peter to Peter’s successor, Pope Benedict XVI. Deal with it!

Well then where are your apostles? That’s what the church Jesus established had at its head, after He ascended to heaven.

Here, I’ll answer my own question: you don’t have any. Does that make you nothing more than a fan club? I’ll answer my own question again: not necessarily. You claim to have the authority to do away with the original form of church government and this claim can be neither substantiated or denied. You claim it without proof.

 

[ibkc]

Well then where are your apostles? That’s what the church Jesus established had at its head, after He ascended to heaven.

Here, I’ll answer my own question: you don’t have any.

You don’t have any, either. The only Apostles who ever existed are the ones who received their teachings from Jesus himself and were chosen by him to build His Church. No church has living Apostles. However, the Catholic Church preserves the teachings of the Apostles and of Jesus. The LDS church does not. It preserves the teachings of some men who have given themselves the title of apostle.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Well then where are your apostles? That’s what the church Jesus established had at its head, after He ascended to heaven.

Here, I’ll answer my own question: you don’t have any. Does that make you nothing more than a fan club? I’ll answer my own question again: not necessarily. You claim to have the authority to do away with the original form of church government and this claim can be neither substantiated or denied. You claim it without proof.

Don’t try to change the subject. We were discussing whether there was a total apostasy. The LDS teaching alone which says that there had to be one after all the apostles died out (but that there is still one roaming the earth) seems to indicate that there wasn’t a total apostasy. (If even one apostle exists, then there can’t be a total “falling away”. Besides, there is ample proof enough in history and in the early church fathers that there was not a “total” apostasy.

Oh, and as for somehow connecting the LDS and the JWs, well, they both belong to the religious movement called Adventism and include the condemned heresy, Arianism, in their teachings,both have that vested interest in wanting others to believe that there was a total apostasy, and both the LDS and the JWs have their own Scriptures. (Michael the Archangel also seems to figure in both religious movements, or so I have learned on another thread here.) There are probably other similarities that I just haven’t mentioned.

 

[excaliber]

Don’t try to change the subject. We were discussing whether there was a total apostasy. The LDS teaching alone which says that there had to be one after all the apostles died out (but that there is still one roaming the earth) seems to indicate that there wasn’t a total apostasy. (If even one apostle exists, then there can’t be a total “falling away”. Besides, there is ample proof enough in history and in the early church fathers that there was not a “total” apostasy.

Oh, and as for somehow connecting the LDS and the JWs, well, they both belong to the religious movement called Adventism and include the condemned heresy, Arianism, in their teachings,both have that vested interest in wanting others to believe that there was a total apostasy, and both the LDS and the JWs have their own Scriptures. (Michael the Archangel also seems to figure in both religious movements, or so I have learned on another thread here.) There are probably other similarities that I just haven’t mentioned.

Jw’s and LDS are not like Catholic and Orthodox where you share most of the same teachings.

Jw and Lds from my view are simular only because they are both
RESTORATION churches…and because they both try restoring the
ancient christians, yes they both believe there must have been an apostasy first.

Now as for proof, a jw will use scripture, and will also point out everything that has been wrong with other churches.
The Jw study intensely!!! and are very active…because they set such a high standard for study and evangelization, Jw’s are left with the thought that if they did not have the truth knowone else could,
Because most jw’s don’t know any church as active as theres is.

 

[excaliber]

What is interesting is the DEFINITION of apostasy…it seems that all 40,000 plus denominations are united in blaming the Roman Catholic church for an apostasy.

Even the eastern half of the Roman Catholic church feels that they had to part with Rome over issues.

Martin luther who was Roman Catholic blamed the Church for coruption.

Now that’s a lot of people saying that some sort of apostasy happened in Rome.

the trick is what do you mean by TOTAL apostasy. Because its hard to prove or disprove something that is not defined.

by the way I don’t personaly have any evidence to prove a total apostasy.

 

[justinthemartyr]

the total apostacy would have to be assumed or invented in order for these religions to survive, as is evident.

 

[excaliber]

the total apostacy would have to be assumed or invented in order for these religions to survive, as is evident.

Well yea a restoration church needs something to restore…LOL

But actualy we live in a new era, one in which people are born and raised outside Catholosism. While the great apostasy is important, its not necessary for denominations to survive any more.

The fact that many have not even come in contact with Cotholosism because they were born in another religion, shows that The Catholic Church must evangelize…this would be a huge task because The Church dosent have enugh priests for its own congregations,and I have heard Catholics admit that many Catholics don’t know there own faith. So how can they evangelize all those BORN outside the church.

Long story short, I don’t think the denominations are going anywhere, with or without the great apostasy, because those born in another religion pick up a bible and automaticaly think peter and paul were baptist,pentecostal,JW, etc…etc…

but back to the point, any apostasy
…not just total would cause division…look at the Orthodox for example.

 

[AMDGtoo]

any apostasy
…not just total would cause division

Can’t quite agree. Without a total apostasy there would be no reason for the Adventist religious systems that the JWs and the LDS are.

 

[excaliber]

Can’t quite agree. Without a total apostasy there would be no reason for the Adventist religious systems that the JWs and the LDS are.

There we go grouping jw and Lds again, when I don’t know anything about the Lds.

Trust me “I know” the Jw’s will survive because the are close nit and extremely active.( I don’t know if lds have those traits)

Because the jw are soooo active, there is a fealing of “we have to have the truth because of our bible knowledge and evangelization”

Tradition and history is not in the JW’s vocabulary, they simply try to out Christian everyone else.
I was raised JW, never did I hear any speaches about a great apostasy (that I can remember)

You have to realize how much of a non factor Catholics are to JW’s. Because Jw’s are not to come to websites like this, or watch E.W.T.N. so there exposure to anything outside of the Jehovahs witness church is limited.

The great apostasy is a non factor anymore. All Catholics need is a STRONG evangelization, but I can’t imagine that happening right now because The Church simply dose not have the fire power… if Catholics began going door to door
to preach in an organized fasion, with bible training for all parishes.
THEN Jehovahs witnesses would be in danger. and would frankly be crushed by the Roman Catholic church.

But we both know that there aren’t even enuff priests for every church, much less bible class instructers, and much much less an evangelical attitude…Catholics are more introverted then any christian organization I know of.

So the answer is that a TOTAL apostasy is very not necessary. Unless something changes and Catholics become extremely zealous for evangelization. Or there is some act of God, the Jehovahs witnesses will remain because They know KNOTHING of the Catholic church.

 

[AMDGtoo]

There we go grouping jw and Lds again, when I don’t know anything about the Lds.

Yep, there I go again. Wonder why. Could it be that the beginnings of both the JWs–founded in 1872, the LDS–founded in 1830, (and also the Seventh Day Adventists–founded in 1831) are all American made religions that sprang up in the 1800s saying that there was a total apostasy (and without that claim, there would be no founding of the Adventist religious systems)? The fact that nowadays you feel no need to make mention of the “Catholic/Christian Church going astray” does not speak to what your founders believed.

And it doesn’t matter how active they are (and yes, I can attest that I can expect a visit from the JWs every Spring when the weather warms up–they come in carloads, women and children in their Sunday best and men looking like they just stepped out of the 1940s.) However, since I also get sets of Mormon Missionaries proseltyizing, I know how active they are too. (I’m often surprised to find that others don’t know.)

 

[PaulDupre]

What? You’re joking, right? Why did the early apostles and prophets warn of a coming apostacy if there was no apostacy? The warnings about false prophets and many other warnings was the record of a prophesy of a “falling away”. And it was fulfilled. The apostles are all gone and it happened early on in the primitive church. And until 1830, there were no apostles.

All of the proof texts that Mormons claim predict a universal apostasy speak of individuals falling away from the Church, not a falling away of the Church. Read them and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[excaliber]

Yep, there I go again. Wonder why. Could it be that the beginnings of both the JWs–founded in 1872, the LDS–founded in 1830, (and also the Seventh Day Adventists–founded in 1831) are all American made religions that sprang up in the 1800s saying that there was a total apostasy (and without that claim, there would be no founding of the Adventist religious systems)? The fact that nowadays you feel no need to make mention of the “Catholic/Christian Church going astray” does not speak to what your founders believed.

And it doesn’t matter how active they are (and yes, I can attest that I can expect a visit from the JWs every Spring when the weather warms up–they come in carloads, women and children in their Sunday best and men looking like they just stepped out of the 1940s.) However, since I also get sets of Mormon Missionaries proseltyizing, I know how active they are too. (I’m often surprised to find that others don’t know.)

I was jw my whole life, history or when something was founded means nothing.
Ask a jw who there present president is I BET THEY DON’T KNOW…ask them to name all the members of there PRESENT governing body I bet they don’t know that eather…this is NO JOKE, most jw know nothing of there organization now…let alone in the 1800’s.

mabey Lds know about things like that. But wana get a jw? then the bible is the best tool…all that history this and tradishion that is not in there vocabulary.

So if most Jw’s don’t know what the catholic church is anyway, if you take away the great apostasy it dosent matter if jw’s don’t know a catholic from a baptist.

 

[PaulDupre]

When it comes down to it, we are following Holy men whose authority we accept…

Much of what we accept is taken on authority after a certain point. We like to believe the people we follow are Holy men who are dedicated to God and the truth. We both believe that.

I guess that is one difference between Mormons and Catholics. The Catholic Church is not dependent upon the holiness of individual leaders. Only Jesus Christ is truly holy. All men are sinners, some more than others.

The authority of the Church to defend and teach the deposit of faith and to administer the sacraments has nothing to do with the individual holiness of the leaders or the local clergy. It has to do with Christ, who is God and who alone is holy. Jesus promised that his Church would endure to the end of time, and that the Holy Spirit would guide his Church into all truth. He has kept that promise and will continue to keep it, in spite of the flawed men he has called to serve him. As Saint Paul said, God works though the weakest of men in order to demonstrate his power and glory.

We Catholics are very blessed that all of the popes in recent history have been wonderful and holy men, but it has not always been so. Even when there were really bad men in the chair of Peter, the Lord Jesus protected his Church from doctrinal error, just as he said he would. Wheat and tares, just like he said.

I hope your faith in your religion is not dependent on the personal holiness of all its leaders. That is a house built on shifting sand.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

because they set such a high standard for study and evangelization, Jw’s are left with the thought that if they did not have the truth knowone else could,
Because most jw’s don’t know any church as active as theres is.

Activity, of itself, is not a virtue. The JWs and Mormons keep their members busy all the time so they never have any non-church pursuits or friendships outside the church. This is a method of controlling their members.

 

[excaliber]

Activity, of itself, is not a virtue. The JWs and Mormons keep their members busy all the time so they never have any non-church pursuits or friendships outside the church. This is a method of controlling their members.

Having plenty to do in the work of the lord is scriptural.
The preaching work is scriptural.
Studying scripture is scriptural.
being separate from the world is scriptural…etc…etc

I hope you get my point.

Being active…and constantly seeing scripture back up what your
doing,builds confidence.

Why do you think the JW organization can make false prophecy’s and still survive?

they feel that they are the only ones active in door to door minestry. It is Jw belief that the Catholic church literaly CANOT do this the way they do. Like God is directing there door to door preaching work.

Sounds strange, but you can’t win an argument about a great apostasy even if it was the foundation of the Church…
I guarantee that you show a JW a paper trail leading back to Jesus…and they may be shocked, but they will ask you if you go door to door like they do…do you study as much…etc when you say no, they will think that you must have gone apostate somewhere. why?

Because they see everything they do in the bible. So you must win a bible argument because if they continue to see themselves as the most active in scriptural things, they assume everyone else had to apostasize. So its realy not about dates, or the adventist movement.

Its about the bible and who looks like they are following scripture,and most active in preaching. And the assumption that everyone else must have apostasized if there not doing that stuff.

 

[hosemonkey]

Having plenty to do in the work of the lord is scriptural.
The preaching work is scriptural.
Studying scripture is scriptural.
being separate from the world is scriptural…etc…etc

I hope you get my point.

Being active…and constantly seeing scripture back up what your
doing,builds confidence.

Why do you think the JW organization can make false prophecy’s and still survive?

they feel that they are the only ones active in door to door minestry. It is Jw belief that the Catholic church literaly CANOT do this the way they do. Like God is directing there door to door preaching work.

Sounds strange, but you can’t win an argument about a great apostasy even if it was the foundation of the Church…
I guarantee that you show a JW a paper trail leading back to Jesus…and they may be shocked, but they will ask you if you go door to door like they do…do you study as much…etc when you say no, they will think that you must have gone apostate somewhere. why?

Because they see everything they do in the bible. So you must win a bible argument because if they continue to see themselves as the most active in scriptural things, they assume everyone else had to apostasize. So its realy not about dates, or the adventist movement.

Its about the bible and who looks like they are following scripture,and most active in preaching. And the assumption that everyone else must have apostasized if there not doing that stuff.

The huge stumbling block that mormons cannot get over is the CHARACTER of their “Prophet.” There is an extensive paper trail leading back to the con-man and ne’er-do-well Joseph Smith, who concocted the whole fantasy out of a “peep-stone” in his hat. Contrast that with the character of the founder of the Catholic Church, Jesus Christ Himself. Who will you believe?