For JWs and LDS

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zerinus said:
Yes.

zerinus
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Ok well how about the miracle that happened in egypt…THAT’S ON CAMERA.

someone here can help me with the link. But Holy Mary was seen above an orthodox church,that was built at a holy site. This happened for like 3 YEARS!!

The muslims…the catholics…the orthodox…EVERYONE saw her.
I saw pictures taken of her.

If 70,000 people saw fatima…and like the whole country of egypt saw mary in egypt…SOMETHING IS GOING ON.
 
excaliber said:
Ok well how about the miracle that happened in egypt…THAT’S ON CAMERA.

someone here can help me with the link. But Holy Mary was seen above an orthodox church,that was built at a holy site. This happened for like 3 YEARS!!

The muslims…the catholics…the orthodox…EVERYONE saw her.
I saw pictures taken of her.

If 70,000 people saw fatima…and like the whole country of egypt saw mary in egypt…SOMETHING IS GOING ON.
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If that is religion to you, then I suppose we have nothing to argue about. All I can say is that that does not cut it for me. Thousands of Iranians thought they saw the face of Ayatolah Khomeiny on the moon during the Islamic revolution there. That does not cut it for me either.

zerinus
 
do they have video of Ayatolah Khomeiny…whoever that is?

Anyway not the point.

The point is THE GREAT APOSTASY…IF there was a TOTAL apostasy, why on earth would God encourage it by leting Holy Mary apear in front of thousands?

A TOTAL apostasy is very serious.
And if it was aloud to go on for 2000 years…all that did was alow it to be firmly established.

It seems that the Catholics have a down hill battle. Its harder to prove a TOTAL APOSTASY, because it brings up a million questions.

you said you liked the catholic church…what would you like about a TOTAL apostasy?
 
excaliber said:
do they have video of Ayatolah Khomeiny…whoever that is?

Anyway not the point.

The point is THE GREAT APOSTASY…IF there was a TOTAL apostasy, why on earth would God encourage it by leting Holy Mary apear in front of thousands?

A TOTAL apostasy is very serious.
And if it was aloud to go on for 2000 years…all that did was alow it to be firmly established.

It seems that the Catholics have a down hill battle. Its harder to prove a TOTAL APOSTASY, because it brings up a million questions.

you said you liked the catholic church…what would you like about a TOTAL apostasy?
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In post #67 I gave link to an article in my Blog that answers that question. If you read that article, it will answer your questions too.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
In post #67 I gave link to an article in my Blog that answers that question. If you read that article, it will answer your questions too.

zerinus
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Cool!!
Im gona go check it out now.
Do you mind me asking…are you an elder or missionary…like what’s your church title?
 
zerinus said:
I am an elder in the Church (not a missionary).

zerinus
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An “elder” is one of those 18 year old kids who ride around on bicycles. Hardly “elders.” Also, zerinus, wasn’t it a “miracle” when Joe Smith looked into his hat and came up with a whole new religion? You believe that, don’t you?
 
zerinus said:
In post #67 I gave link to an article in my Blog that answers that question. If you read that article, it will answer your questions too.

zerinus
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IMPORTANT POINT for all Mormons visiting this site… much time can be saved if you explain that your concept of “apostasy” is different than the traditional definition.

According to Zs blog, it does not mean the typical, “renunciation of a religious faith” (which would be deliberate), but the “loss of the priesthood and apostolic authority of the church.”

This, I might add, is a different definition of the word and may not be understood anywhere outside of LDS circles.

By the way, this is an abuse of the term. Apostasy is a formal act of the will in rejection of a religion or cause (my words). This can be seen in any dictionary or by conducting a simple internet search.

Do the LDS then believe that this loss of priesthood and apostolic authority occurred by accident? As if the church receded into Chaos? I think this is very different than how most of us think of apostasy, which would be a willful turning away from the Church Jesus founded.

RAR
 
Accident no, attrition may be a closer concept. In that to few held to the correct teachings and the leaders died off to fast for full replacement. There would have been many willful acts of rebellion with people turning away from God and many others who where unable to find the entire truth.

Error like disease spreads unless there is a strong immune system to stop it. Many of Paulus letters are a clear sign of the efforts to counter the errors, but over time error (whither on accident or deliberate) won.
 
RAR said:
IMPORTANT POINT for all Mormons visiting this site… much time can be saved if you explain that your concept of “apostasy” is different than the traditional definition.

According to Zs blog, it does not mean the typical, “renunciation of a religious faith” (which would be deliberate), but the “loss of the priesthood and apostolic authority of the church.”

This, I might add, is a different definition of the word and may not be understood anywhere outside of LDS circles.

By the way, this is an abuse of the term. Apostasy is a formal act of the will in rejection of a religion or cause (my words). This can be seen in any dictionary or by conducting a simple internet search.

Do the LDS then believe that this loss of priesthood and apostolic authority occurred by accident? As if the church receded into Chaos? I think this is very different than how most of us think of apostasy, which would be a willful turning away from the Church Jesus founded.

RAR
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My understanding of the Apostasy conforms to the LDS Church’s view. The rest of your objections have already been addressed in my Blog post. No need to add anything further to it.

zerinus
 
teancum79 said:
Accident no, attrition may be a closer concept. In that to few held to the correct teachings and the leaders died off to fast for full replacement. There would have been many willful acts of rebellion with people turning away from God and many others who where unable to find the entire truth.

Error like disease spreads unless there is a strong immune system to stop it. Many of Paulus letters are a clear sign of the efforts to counter the errors, but over time error (whither on accident or deliberate) won.
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and yet when we compare the writings of the early christians with modern doctrines we see a continuity within the catholic church. the same cannot be said for restorationists. their doctrines are all new. despite claims of suppressed evidence (evidence to the contrary in large amounts for all heresies) or open canon (which kind of negates restoration and replaces it with new and improved) we simply don’t see a global apostasy. we see no prophecy claiming it will occur and in fact we have ample scriptural evidence that apostasy would NOT overcome the church as a whole.
 
which resulted in the loss of the ability to communicate directly with God, and to lead the church by revelation, as it used to be while the Twelve Apostles were still on the earth.

This is a quote from your blog.
Mabey you can explane this part more???

Because the Catholic Church teaches that new revelation ended with the apostles. So the fact that there was no revelation after the apostles would not have alarmed anyone.

Also you said the Church declined slowly, like a body would decompose slowly after loosing its head. Interesting because Catholics pride themselves on not changing anything…and so do the
Orthodox…and so do the oriental Orthodox…none of them look ANYTHING like LDS…and these churches are note worthy for staying the same, if anything changes even a little…there members have a cow!!

But I have not visited a mormon church yet, I would but I don’t see many of them…I have only seen one,and its on a super buisy street so everyone would see me going in 😦
 
teancum79 said:
Accident no, attrition may be a closer concept. In that to few held to the correct teachings and the leaders died off to fast for full replacement. There would have been many willful acts of rebellion with people turning away from God and many others who where unable to find the entire truth.

Error like disease spreads unless there is a strong immune system to stop it. Many of Paulus letters are a clear sign of the efforts to counter the errors, but over time error (whither on accident or deliberate) won.
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That’s an honest answer. Attrition, not accident. And it makes more sense to me than much I have heard before… of course, I disagree. 😉

But to stay with the immune system analogy (as I happen to be a microbiologist), once an invader is recognized, the body goes into overdrive to neutralize the foreign body - cells communicate with one another the nature of the invader and all those cells produce thousands of antibodies in response.

The same can be said in the face of heresy and false teachings. In this case, Paul recognized the attack and sounded the alarm. And the body (of Christ) rose up and the attack was quelled. I believe that this has always been the case in history in regard to heresy and apostasy.

Thank you for your honest answers Teancum… I feel an affinity with all who recognize God and live a good life… and it has often troubled me that Mormons and others can believe in an apostasy that I believe simply could not have happened.

RAR
 
PaulDupre said:
I guess that is one difference between Mormons and Catholics. The Catholic Church is not dependent upon the holiness of individual leaders. Only Jesus Christ is truly holy. All men are sinners, some more than others.

The authority of the Church to defend and teach the deposit of faith and to administer the sacraments has nothing to do with the individual holiness of the leaders or the local clergy. It has to do with Christ, who is God and who alone is holy. Jesus promised that his Church would endure to the end of time, and that the Holy Spirit would guide his Church into all truth. He has kept that promise and will continue to keep it, in spite of the flawed men he has called to serve him. As Saint Paul said, God works though the weakest of men in order to demonstrate his power and glory.

We Catholics are very blessed that all of the popes in recent history have been wonderful and holy men, but it has not always been so. Even when there were really bad men in the chair of Peter, the Lord Jesus protected his Church from doctrinal error, just as he said he would. Wheat and tares, just like he said.

I hope your faith in your religion is not dependent on the personal holiness of all its leaders. That is a house built on shifting sand.

Paul
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Paul, that was very good, I do appreciate your thoughts. This whole subject, how a church’s teaching evolve, and how they are influenced, could probably be a separate thread. I also like the deposit of faith that you RC have, it’s a good concept.

picturesofjesus4you.com/228.html

Above is a link of one of my favourite “religious paintings”, done by an LDS artist, Harry Anderson. It shows Jesus in what appears to be a Bishop’s office and couseling with him. I really like that painting, especially the idea in it. I guess it’s what we really expect from our church. You all can replace that Mormon Bishop with a priest in robes.
 
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