For JWs and LDS

[teancum79]

That’s an honest answer. Attrition, not accident. And it makes more sense to me than much I have heard before… of course, I disagree.

But to stay with the immune system analogy (as I happen to be a microbiologist), once an invader is recognized, the body goes into overdrive to neutralize the foreign body - cells communicate with one another the nature of the invader and all those cells produce thousands of antibodies in response.

The same can be said in the face of heresy and false teachings. In this case, Paul recognized the attack and sounded the alarm. And the body (of Christ) rose up and the attack was quelled. I believe that this has always been the case in history in regard to heresy and apostasy.

Thank you for your honest answers Teancum… I feel an affinity with all who recognize God and live a good life… and it has often troubled me that Mormons and others can believe in an apostasy that I believe simply could not have happened.

RAR

And on that we will continue to disagree, but I think a clear understanding of our views both the differences and the similarities will help to make for a better fath community for all of us.

 

[excaliber]

I read some of Z’s blog…and the counter to the argument…basicaly you can’t win that argument without more proof, especially if I use the inocent until prooven guilty
thought process.

You LDS are just gona have to show me what ya got when I visit.

If you got to cars both claiming to be a porshe, the test drive will reveal the truth…because the inferior canot out performe the real thing.

 

[zerinus]

I read some of Z’s blog…and the counter to the argument…basicaly you can’t win that argument without more proof, especially if I use the inocent until prooven guilty
thought process.

You LDS are just gona have to show me what ya got when I visit.

If you got to cars both claiming to be a porshe, the test drive will reveal the truth…because the inferior canot out performe the real thing.

That is up to you. I believe I have made my case for the Apostasy in that post. You haven’t said anything that convinces me that I need to add anything to it.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

Paul, that was very good, I do appreciate your thoughts. This whole subject, how a church’s teaching evolve, and how they are influenced, could probably be a separate thread. I also like the deposit of faith that you RC have, it’s a good concept.

picturesofjesus4you.com/228.html

Above is a link of one of my favourite “religious paintings”, done by an LDS artist, Harry Anderson. It shows Jesus in what appears to be a Bishop’s office and couseling with him. I really like that painting, especially the idea in it. I guess it’s what we really expect from our church. You all can replace that Mormon Bishop with a priest in robes.

food for thought. i enjoyed it

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul, that was very good, I do appreciate your thoughts. This whole subject, how a church’s teaching evolve, and how they are influenced, could probably be a separate thread. I also like the deposit of faith that you RC have, it’s a good concept.

picturesofjesus4you.com/228.html

Above is a link of one of my favourite “religious paintings”, done by an LDS artist, Harry Anderson. It shows Jesus in what appears to be a Bishop’s office and couseling with him. I really like that painting, especially the idea in it. I guess it’s what we really expect from our church. You all can replace that Mormon Bishop with a priest in robes.

Thanks for your comments. If you agree that gospel authority does not rest on the personal holiness of the members or the leaders, then how can Mormons explain the “apostasy” by saying the priesthood was lost through unrighteousness?

Paul

 

[excaliber]

That is up to you. I believe I have made my case for the Apostasy in that post. You haven’t said anything that convinces me that I need to add anything to it.

zerinus

You can’t add anything…there is nothing to add. lds say the Church was completely destroyed. But the Catholic Church says it was not destroyed.

I have visited the Catholic church.
Now I must visit yours. I know the bible well enugh to know if your church is what I have read about my whole life.

by the way Z…Im african american…do I need to find an african american mormon church?
Or mixed church?
Or is there anything else I need to know…racists make me upset…and upset is an under statement. So I would rather be prepared before I get there.

 

[zerinus]

You can’t add anything…there is nothing to add. lds say the Church was completely destroyed. But the Catholic Church says it was not destroyed.

If you had read my Blog article carefully enough, you would know that I did not claim that the Catholic Church was “completely destroyed”.

I have visited the Catholic church.
Now I must visit yours. I know the bible well enugh to know if your church is what I have read about my whole life.

You are welcome to visit our Church any time you want. But if you intend to judge it by your preconceived ideas of what the true church should look like, you are likely to be disappointed.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

by the way Z…Im african american…do I need to find an african american mormon church?
Or mixed church?
Or is there anything else I need to know…racists make me upset…and upset is an under statement. So I would rather be prepared before I get there.

No, there are no racial segregation in our chearches, and no special treatment for anybody. You are welcome to attend, and you will be treated like everybody else.

zerinus

 

[excaliber]

If you had read my Blog article carefully enough, you would know that I did not claim that the Catholic Church was “completely destroyed”.

You are welcome to visit our Church any time you want. But if you intend to judge it by your preconceived ideas of what the true church should look like, you are likely to be disappointed.

zerinus

I saw your post…no priesthood…no comunication with God…no athority…sounds destroyed by my standards.

hehehehehehe!!!
I said Ill visit, are ya still gona argue with me sheesh

My favorite visit was the Oness pentecostal church…yea that was like a rock and roll concert yea!!!

 

[PaulDupre]

by the way Z…Im african american…do I need to find an african american mormon church?
Or mixed church?
Or is there anything else I need to know…racists make me upset…and upset is an under statement. So I would rather be prepared before I get there.

In that case, you should read the Book of Mormon before you go, at least the first 67 pages or so.

An example from the Book of Mormon:

20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he
spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

-2 Nephi 5:20-24

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[teancum79]

In that case, you should read the Book of Mormon before you go, at least the first 67 pages or so.

An example from the Book of Mormon:

Hope this helps,
Paul

Wow Paul you managed to bring up half an argument ignore the rest under the pretense of being helpful. Congrats on your hypocrisy.

 

[excaliber]

In that case, you should read the Book of Mormon before you go, at least the first 67 pages or so.

An example from the Book of Mormon:
20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he
spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

-2 Nephi 5:20-24

Hope this helps,
Paul

WHAT!!!
Ok I almost had to walk away from my computer for time out. (excaliber has flames and smoke coming out of nose)

Z…why didn’t you warn me about this???
I directly asked you…DIRECTLY about race.

What if I had heard this read at your church.

ok ok ok calm down excaliber…

Z what do you have to say about this???

 

[PaulDupre]

Wow Paul you managed to bring up half an argument ignore the rest under the pretense of being helpful. Congrats on your hypocrisy.

I merely quoted “the most correct book on the earth” without editorializing . Are you ashamed of the Book of Mormon?

You can quote the Holy Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church all you want and I promise I will never complain.

Paul

 

[teancum79]

I merely quoted “the most correct book on the earth” without editorializing . Are you ashamed of the Book of Mormon?

You can quote the Holy Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church all you want and I promise I will never complain.

Paul

Okay so take

EX 32:

25 ¶ And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Alone without other information it makes it look like Moses commanded mass murder.

Does this not direct someone towards an inaccurate conclusion?

Would this posting not be considered to be in error without providing the balancing information?

Or are you happy with a prophet who commands people to murder others?

(edit forgot chap 1 sec.)

(edit fixed)

 

[teancum79]

WHAT!!!
Ok I almost had to walk away from my computer for time out. (excaliber has flames and smoke coming out of nose)

Z…why didn’t you warn me about this???
I directly asked you…DIRECTLY about race.

What if I had heard this read at your church.

ok ok ok calm down excaliber…

Z what do you have to say about this???

Its one of Pauls dishonest stunts.

He neglected to mention
2 nephi 26:
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I have a hard time believing that Paul with all his expertness simply forgot what is taught in the “most correct book”.

 

[excaliber]

Okay so take

EX 32:

25 ¶ And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Alone without other information it makes it look like Moses commanded mass murder.

Does this not direct someone towards an inaccurate conclusion?

Would this posting not be considered to be in error without providing the balancing information?

Or are you happy with a prophet who commands people to murder others?

(edit forgot chap 1 sec.)

(edit fixed)

Anyone who was on Gods side could have sided with moses(regardless of there skin color) Moses just stoped an open rebelion.

Now What’s that stuff I just read in your book of mormon.

 

[teancum79]

Anyone who was on Gods side could have sided with moses(regardless of there skin color) Moses just stoped an open rebelion.

Now What’s that stuff I just read in your book of mormon.

A group of people rebelled ageist God.

To keep group 1 separate from group 2 God marked one of them.

One group was “cursed” for a time. In time their decedents accepted the gospel of Christ and the “curse” was lifted.

Paul appears to be trying to make us look like some flaming racist. That is very inaccurate. As I quoted from 2nd Nephi all are welcome in the gospel.

At times some groups of people have had more or less blessings given them from God. Such as Abraham’s family.

 

[excaliber]

Its one of Pauls dishonest stunts.

He neglected to mention
2 nephi 26:
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I have a hard time believing that Paul with all his expertness simply forgot what is taught in the “most correct book”.

Lets get back to the part about just How people with dark skin…Got dark???

So how exactly did it happen?

 

[excaliber]

A group of people rebelled ageist God.

To keep group 1 separate from group 2 God marked one of them.

One group was “cursed” for a time. In time their decedents accepted the gospel of Christ and the “curse” was lifted.

Paul appears to be trying to make us look like some flaming racist. That is very inaccurate. As I quoted from 2nd Nephi all are welcome in the gospel.

At times some groups of people have had more or less blessings given them from God. Such as Abraham’s family.

Marked them how???

And for what reason do you think this was writen? If there was no racial discrimination, what other reason was it writen?

Need I even guess which race wrote it?

 

[PaulDupre]

Okay so take

EX 32:

25 ¶ And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Alone without other information it makes it look like Moses commanded mass murder.

Does this not direct someone towards an inaccurate conclusion?

Would this posting not be considered to be in error without providing the balancing information?

Or are you happy with a prophet who commands people to murder others?

(edit forgot chap 1 sec.)

(edit fixed)

It is what it is. I make no excuses for Moses.