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PaulDupre
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Why then, in Mormonism, is the curse for sin always a black skin?
Brigham Young, the successor to Joseph Smith and second prophet of the Mormon Church said:
More here.
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Brigham Young, the successor to Joseph Smith and second prophet of the Mormon Church said:
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excaliber
Guest
Never mind, I think I don’t want to know.
So about that great apostasy, and all this restoration stuff…
The jews were there. Why haven’t they come forward and said…hey we watched christianity transform into something completely different?
Were the first christians poligamists?
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Carl_Nicholas
Guest
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hosemonkey
Guest
Keep in mind that author of the fantasy known as the Book of Mormon was merely reflecting the racism of his time. He had no qualms about including that stuff because he know that nobody would object. Let me quote to you what Brigham Young, mormon “Prophet” says about black people: **“You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED OF NEARLY ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859, emphasis added.
Now it took the mormon “church” , operating under extreme pressure, until 1978 to finally admit “worthy” black men to the “priesthood.” Get the picture?
**
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Oh my, that is some ugly stuff.
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hosemonkey
Guest
Deafening silence from our mormon friends. What about it boys, cat got your tongue?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Mormon leaders would say yes. Not only were the early Christians polygamists, but Jesus himself was a polygamist and had children. They also taught that Mormon leaders were direct descendants of Jesus and the apostles.
The Mormon Jesus was a polygamist.
This is but a tiny sample of the documentation, in roughly chronological order.
- Jesus was a polygamist, married to Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha the sisters of Lazarus, and perhaps others. Also, Jesus had children.
(President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v2, p210)
“It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha [the sisters of Lazarus] and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved [Mary Magdelene], must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 4:259)
One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus - such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of first showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them - namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives. (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159)
“We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before He was crucified. “Has he indeed passed by the nature of angels, and taken upon himself the seed of Abraham, to die without leaving a seed to bear his name on the earth?” No. But when the secret is fully out, the seed of the blessed shall be gathered in, in the last days; and he who has not the blood of Abraham flowing in his veins, who has not one particle of the Saviour’s in him, I am afraid is a stereotyped Gentile, who will be left out and not be gathered in the last days; for I tell you it is the chosen of God, the seed of the blessed, that shall be gathered.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 2:82)
2) Jesus and the apostles were persecuted and killed for being polygamists.
“The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons."
(Prophet Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.346, August 7, 1853)
3) Early Mormon leaders were direct descendants of Jesus.
Joseph Smith was the first to reveal this teaching, when he informed the plural wife of Apostle Judge Adams, that the Apostle “was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.” (Oliver B. Huntington Journal, p. 259)
Prophet Lorenzo Snow, and his counselor George Q. Cannon, later declared this doctrine publicly:
President George Q. Cannon also spoke … he said, "There are those in this audience who are descendants of the old Twelve Apostles - and shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Saviour Himself. His seed is represented in this body of men.
Following Pres. Cannon, President Snow arose and said that what Bro. Cannon had stated respecting the literal descendants among this company of the old apostles and the Saviour himself is true - the Saviour’s seed is represented in this body of men. (Journal of Pres. Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-375)
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zerinus
Guest
Sorry I had to leave, and couldn’t answer sooner. Answer is the same as before. Go there and find out for yourself. Don’t listen to Paul and others. They are apostates from Mormonism, and have a vested interest to turn you away from it. Just go there and find out. There may even be a black American Mormon there who will answer all your questions better than I can.
When you go there, introduce yourself to them (preferably to the bishop), and inform them that you are visiting as a non-member, and ask them to guide you through.
Our meetings usually last three ours. The first hour is what we call Priesthood Meeting (Relief Society for women), the second hour is called Sunday School, and the third hour is the main service, called the Sacrament Meeting. All are open to visitors. So make sure you find out the right time to go (usually 10am), and introduce yourself to them so that they can guide you through the programs. If you will do that, you will learn more about the Church in one day, than you would in a hundred years by talking to a bunch of Mormon apostates and anti-Mormons on CAF. Good luck!
zerinus
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hosemonkey
Guest
“If you would sup with the Devil, then carry a long spoon.”
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PaulDupre
Guest
Sure, don’t listen to me. I might show you LDS stuff that they don’t want you to know about. History? Scripture? Quotes from their leaders? Don’t pay any attention to that, just listen to what their missionaries want you to hear. They have a very slick sales pitch just for you!
Yeah…that’s it.:nope:
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zerinus
Guest
But why are you so keen to disuade him from going there to find out the truth for himself? Afraid that the truth will be different from what you are trying to portray for him?
zerinus
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zaffiroborant
Guest
If Excalibar had flames and smoke coming out of his nose over the BY quote I bet he’d go incandescent over the “more” you linked too!!!
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hosemonkey
Guest
“There may even be a black American Mormon there who will answer all your questions better than I can.”
I love zerinus’s fond hope that there may EVEN be a token black mormon there to give you the business. I don’t know about you Excaliber, but I would be insulted by the whole idea.
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PaulDupre
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I am not trying to dissuade him from going. I just want him to know what he is going to. People need to be forewarned before the Mormon sales machine kicks into gear. It is widely understood that the LDS routinely misrepresent their history and their doctrines in order to get converts. Facts are good. Forewarned is forearmed.
Paul
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excaliber
Guest
Z…do you have any idea just how BAD this sounds?
These are quotes from Mormon leaders…Quotes that I have not heard you deny.
What do you want me to ask at the mormon church???
These are quotes.
I am afraid I can’t invest 3 hours when I directly asked you about race and you told me knothing.
Did you think the other mormons would not speak out?
I am going to have to call a church
on the phone and get information…then post it here for the mormons on this site to see.
That will be a test, If I directly ask another member of your church a question…post it here…then find out I was lied to, or told half the truth…there is no way its a restoration…unless the first christians withheld information from converts…
I just have to think of a question…post there answere here, and see if the truth is told.
Do you think that is a fare test of your restoration theory?
These are quotes from Mormon leaders…Quotes that I have not heard you deny.
What do you want me to ask at the mormon church???
These are quotes.
I am afraid I can’t invest 3 hours when I directly asked you about race and you told me knothing.
Did you think the other mormons would not speak out?
I am going to have to call a church
on the phone and get information…then post it here for the mormons on this site to see.
That will be a test, If I directly ask another member of your church a question…post it here…then find out I was lied to, or told half the truth…there is no way its a restoration…unless the first christians withheld information from converts…
I just have to think of a question…post there answere here, and see if the truth is told.
Do you think that is a fare test of your restoration theory?
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zerinus
Guest
I don’t care how it sounds. You don’t know enough about Mormonism and its history to be able to make a full assessment of these things. We have lots of black American members. Why do you think they are not worried about those things? There are many black members in Africa, where the Church is growing faster than among the white Europeans. Why do you think that is? Don’t judge things by appearances. Go there and find out.
I invest more than 3 hours in the Church every week. If I can do it every week, you can do it once in a lifetime! LOL
What I told you about race in Mormonism is entirely true. I have nothing to take back from what I had said.
Speak out about what?
I don’t know what you are talking about here. There are other Mormons here who can answer your questions besides me. You can ask as many Mormons as many questions as you like, and post it wherever you like. Why do you think that should bother me? If you do as I said, and go to Church on a Sunday, you will meet all the Mormons you want to ask them as many questions you like! And post it anywhere you like!
Yes, it is. You know nothing about Mormonism to come to any definitive conclusions. It is a very unwise person indeed who judges rashly. Go there and find out for yourself.
zerinus
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planten
Guest
Church had enough trouble with the Catholics and Protestants for many hundred years. It is difficult (and bad) to know about two more branches, the Jw’s and the Mormons. The Mormons may be recent (120 years old). I do not know about the age of the JW’s. I hope they do not have any history more than 120 years.
We can say that they are the splinter groups of the real christianity. All believing in Jesus in some way or another. So the Muslims could also be called a group of christianity. They also believe in Jesus in one way or another. There is none in the world who believe in Jesus except the Muslims. Of course the Muslims do not believe in Jesus the same as the RC and protestants. But still they have a wide knowledge and acceptance of Jesus and Mary and the disciples.
I do not know the exact beliefs of the JW’s or the Mormons and waht is theri problem with the old christian groups. I wish that they all live together in Peace.
We can say that they are the splinter groups of the real christianity. All believing in Jesus in some way or another. So the Muslims could also be called a group of christianity. They also believe in Jesus in one way or another. There is none in the world who believe in Jesus except the Muslims. Of course the Muslims do not believe in Jesus the same as the RC and protestants. But still they have a wide knowledge and acceptance of Jesus and Mary and the disciples.
I do not know the exact beliefs of the JW’s or the Mormons and waht is theri problem with the old christian groups. I wish that they all live together in Peace.
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excaliber
Guest
NEXT QUESTION…I don’t care how it sounds. You don’t know enough about Mormonism and its history to be able to make a full assessment of these things. We have lots of black American members. Why do you think they are not worried about those things? There are many black members in Africa, where the Church is growing faster than among the white Europeans. Why do you think that is? Don’t judge things by appearances. Go there and find out.
YOU DON’T CARE…HOW CAN I TRUST THE JUDGMENT OF SOMEONE THAT DOSENT CARE?
I CAME FROM THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESS CHURCH, THERE ARE PLENTY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS THERE TO…WHY…BECAUSE THEY AREN’T TOLD THE TRUTH.
I invest more than 3 hours in the Church every week. If I can do it every week, you can do it once in a lifetime! LOL
IM SURE YOU DO A LOT OF THINGS EVERY WEEK, THAT I “COULD” DO…THIS IS IRRELEVANT.
What I told you about race in Mormonism is entirely true. I have nothing to take back from what I had said.
I WILL SEE ABOUT THAT.
Speak out about what?
FOR EXAMPLE…WHAT THEY JUST SPOKE OUT ABOUT… THE QUOTES.
I don’t know what you are talking about here. There are other Mormons here who can answer your questions besides me. You can ask as many Mormons as many questions as you like, and post it wherever you like. Why do you think that should bother me? If you do as I said, and go to Church on a Sunday, you will meet all the Mormons you want to ask them as many questions you like! And post it anywhere you like!
I AM FULLY AWARE THAT I CAN ASK OF WHOEVER I WISH, AND POST OF WHOEVER I WISH.
AND WHAT DOSE AND DOSE NOT BOTHER YOU, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR RESTORATION CLAIM…RACISM IS MAN MADE,
IF ITS IN YOUR HOLY BOOKS AND QUOTES FROM YOUR LEADERS…THESE TO WOULD BE MAN MADE.
Yes, it is. You know nothing about Mormonism to come to any definitive conclusions. It is a very unwise person indeed who judges rashly. Go there and find out for yourself.
zerinus
HAS THERE BEEN EVEN ONE “CHANGE” IN DOCTRINE?
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hosemonkey
Guest
Excaliber, that is the huge problem with mormonism, their doctrine changes constantly. They change their doctrine to fit the prevailing winds. The mormons on these forums cannot tell you for sure what their doctrines are. They do not know what is doctrine and what is opinion. They changed two of their most important “doctrines” because they were forced to. The doctrine on Polygamy was changed in order to achieve statehood. The doctrine denying black people the “priesthood” was changed because of the civil rights pressure placed on the mormon “church.” Revelation from God had absolutely nothing to do with it. It would seem to me that key doctrines such as polygamy would never change, it being vital to one’s very exaltation, but, away it went. mormonism is a false religion, not of God and therefore changable. Do not be fooled.
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excaliber
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WHAT!!!
You mean to tell me that after a 2000 year wait…God restored Christianity with the mormons.
Then in a short time, The mormon Church turned away from devinly instituted Poligamy…just to become a state.
And it was only because of presure that blaks entered there priesthood?
Ok so I hear of changed doctrine,
And racism.
I want to hear more of the changed doctrine…
But another question… How are former members treated? Is shuning used? Is there any thing that would cause your fellow mormons to turn on you,or is it true love that’s shared by members of the mormon church?
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