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hosemonkey
Guest
I am sure that the former mormons of these forums can tell you a lot more about that. All I know is that mormonism is a false religion trumped up by Joseph Smith and his cronies.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
excalibur, Mormons have the belief that doctrinal revelation is on-going, and that God can change doctrine to suit His purposes.
Smith, their founder, ordained a black man into their priesthood. When he died, Brigham Young took over as their prophet and leader. He is the one who had the heavy, racist, doctrines. Mormons will say that it was his opinion, but apparently, his “opinions” stuck around until 1978.
The Mormon missionary program was gaining success at the time in Brazil. Not being allowed to ordain black men was a block to their conversion efforts. At the same time, the civil rights movement in the US brought about social changes and the Mormons were viewed as having racist doctrines (which they did).
So in 1978 their prophet revealed that “all worthy males” could be ordained into their priesthood.
Also, what you should understand is this difference, all worthy males in Mormonism are ordained as priesthood holders. Their leadership is comprised of lay clergy. So singling out black men was a huge deal, as without the ability to hold the priesthood, you could only participate partially in their religion.
A male priesthood holder is seen as leading his family, not only as father, but as priesthood holder. So you couldn’t even lead your family as Mormonism views it.
I was a teen and a Mormon when this change occurred. I remember the majority of the people being very happy and excited about it. It felt very freeing to not have to view someone of a different skin color as inferior. And, it was exciting to have God giving prophetic revelation, right then, in our lifetime. A few racist jerks left the Mormon church over it, but that was rare.
However, for me, it was probably too little too late. This, along with the Mormon church’s opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment, all in my teen years, was the beginning of my questioning of Mormonism and the beginning of the end of my participation in that religion.
Smith, their founder, ordained a black man into their priesthood. When he died, Brigham Young took over as their prophet and leader. He is the one who had the heavy, racist, doctrines. Mormons will say that it was his opinion, but apparently, his “opinions” stuck around until 1978.
The Mormon missionary program was gaining success at the time in Brazil. Not being allowed to ordain black men was a block to their conversion efforts. At the same time, the civil rights movement in the US brought about social changes and the Mormons were viewed as having racist doctrines (which they did).
So in 1978 their prophet revealed that “all worthy males” could be ordained into their priesthood.
Also, what you should understand is this difference, all worthy males in Mormonism are ordained as priesthood holders. Their leadership is comprised of lay clergy. So singling out black men was a huge deal, as without the ability to hold the priesthood, you could only participate partially in their religion.
A male priesthood holder is seen as leading his family, not only as father, but as priesthood holder. So you couldn’t even lead your family as Mormonism views it.
I was a teen and a Mormon when this change occurred. I remember the majority of the people being very happy and excited about it. It felt very freeing to not have to view someone of a different skin color as inferior. And, it was exciting to have God giving prophetic revelation, right then, in our lifetime. A few racist jerks left the Mormon church over it, but that was rare.
However, for me, it was probably too little too late. This, along with the Mormon church’s opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment, all in my teen years, was the beginning of my questioning of Mormonism and the beginning of the end of my participation in that religion.
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RebeccaJ
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Also, excalibur, to be fair you can google “black mormon” and find websites that are by and about black members of the LDS church.
One of the outspoken black leaders in Mormonism today is Darius Gray. I met him once. He is way into genealogy, and has done a lot of work within the Mormon church to obtain and publicly publish records that enable descendants of slaves to find ancestors.
One of the outspoken black leaders in Mormonism today is Darius Gray. I met him once. He is way into genealogy, and has done a lot of work within the Mormon church to obtain and publicly publish records that enable descendants of slaves to find ancestors.
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rmcmullan
Guest
Your comments made me think, mostly about leadership. If you ever read War and Peace, in the last chapter Tolstoy writes a lot about the relationship between a people and their leaders. Neither are really independent of each other.
You know the LDS method of ordination to the priesthood is by the laying on of hands and there’s a priestly line through which the priesthood is passed down. I can believe *that *was broken, especially if all the apostles got the same treatment as all the prophets before them.
Tell me, what do you think of the priesthood that the Jews held at the time of Christ–was it a Christian priesthood?
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AMDGtoo
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Catholics also ordain by the laying on of hands and each Catholic Bishop (since to be an apostle was to be an eye witness to Jesus, those who were not actual “eye witnesses”, as per the Biblical requirements, were simply called Bishops) can trace their line back to the very beginning (2000 years) which can be shown by a cursory reading of the Early Church Fathers.
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excaliber
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So you have to be a priest to lead a family. Dose this mean you have to be a prist to get married there?
The Jehovah’s witnesses have unwriten rules about marriage, primarily at bethel.
If blacks were not made priests until 1978…and being a priest effects Marriage in some way…
This would have made it hard on blacks would it not?
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RebeccaJ
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You can be married without having the priesthood, but you cannot have a Mormon temple marriage, which, leaves you out of God’s highest reward. (Mormon heaven has three levels, the highest of which requires a temple marriage. To become a god, you have to be in this level of heaven.)
Temple rites are central to Mormon belief, and you would have been denied participation in this.
Also, there are no male activities in Mormonism that do not involve being ordained into their priesthood. It is a very hierarchal and patriarchal society and those who are not ordained do not fit into the social hierarchy, and will never have any patriarchal authority.
Some examples of priesthood activity and belief:
- priesthood sessions every Sunday
- all instruction given to males is centered entirely on priesthood
- Blessing and baptizing members of your family (or others who are important in your life)
- Receiving revelation for guiding the life of your family
- Temple rites (as mentioned)
- Without the priesthood, you are not receiving all of the blessings that God has for you and your family.
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zerinus
Guest
No comment. I have already told you enough to provide you with the correct information. If you want to reject that, that is your choice. I have nothing further to say.
zerinus
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RebeccaJ
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excalibur, the LDS church recently celebrated the 30 year mark (June 9) since this change in their doctrine. Lots of news coverage “looking back”, here in Salt Lake. Books have been published in those years that describe the change.
Here is one:
"The individuals most directly affected – African American Latter-day Saints – also stressed the importance of this change. Monroe Fleming, a popular speaker at church functions and civic organizations, expressed the complex, varied, feelings of those individuals when he confessed that he had “yearned for this day [and] prayed for this day”, adding that being black and being Mormon is no longer “feeling you’re a guest in your father’s house.” (“Black and Mormon”, 2004)
Here is one:
"The individuals most directly affected – African American Latter-day Saints – also stressed the importance of this change. Monroe Fleming, a popular speaker at church functions and civic organizations, expressed the complex, varied, feelings of those individuals when he confessed that he had “yearned for this day [and] prayed for this day”, adding that being black and being Mormon is no longer “feeling you’re a guest in your father’s house.” (“Black and Mormon”, 2004)
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excaliber
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I plan to speak to members of your church, just to be fair…I do think that the Catholic Church has the edge in the Great apostasy argument. I am interested in how the early christians congregated with each other…because if you define a local congregation as a CLOSE body of believers, and I don’t mean close as in where in the city you live, I mean close as in
a christian family. I have not seen a family like atmosphere at ANY Catholic church, you are there for communion and ritual and that’s it.
Is a congregation important? Yes, because I met someone mabey two months ago that needed help and told me they wanted to get back to church…I was helpless to assist her because I knew not one single individual in the whole building, and I CAN’T even get a hold of the one priest they have for several churches.
I thought mabey its just me…then I got a call from a catholic in another state, who had to go outside the church for help…this is completely unacceptable to me, and I have never heard a VALID excuse.
The only Catholic congregation I have is on the internet…every thing in the church makes some sence other then what looks like the disappearance of the Congregation, I don’t understand that…the larger the congregation the stronger…there should be many that qualify to be deacons, definatly more then one priest for several churches, and I am guessing that there is probably one bishop for a very large group of churches…what is going on here!!!
to be fair yes there are picnics here or there, but general motors can replicate that, I thought a congregation could do more???
Now I have never had this problem anywhere else, including the orthodox. It is a very serious thing when people must go outside the church to find qualified people with the time to help.
Im not sure that this is proof of an apostasy, however I do think that having strong christians that are on fire for Christ…spread out among 40,000 denominations has obviously weakend the church, which is why these christians are sometimes more available and mabey even more qualified then those in your local congregation.
Still not proof of a complete apostasy though.
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excaliber
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NO COMENT!!!
You should defend your church…unless these allegations are true.
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PaulDupre
Guest
It was the Levitical priesthood, which was the preparatory priesthood that looked forward to the coming of the Christ, who is our one High Priest, “a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizadek”.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yes, I agree, you should study and pray and ask for God’s guidance.
I left Mormonism a long time ago, decades, and became and atheist. I was baptized a Catholic last March. When I first started going to Mass, yes, it was the prayers, the ritual, and the people that I liked. As an atheist, I missed having a place to belong.
That is not why I became a Catholic. It is much deeper than that. When I started studying about the Catholic faith I had no intention of getting baptized. God led me here, and there is no where else for me to be. The Eucharist is a big part of that, I can’t even describe how profound it is to me.
Sacramental continuity was something that was important to me. You can read in early Christian writings a description of the worship of a Christian community, and find exactly the same thing going on at Mass today. And I mean more than in the activity of how it is done, I mean, in a Sacramental sense. They are unchanged, divine, gift. Something that is not found in any of the restoration churches, and few of the Protestant denominations.
Community is important to me. I too struggled with figuring out how to be an active part of my Catholic parish. I don’t know how JW’s work, but in Mormonism, you can’t get away from being a part of the community, even if you wanted to. If you don’t show up for a church function, someone calls to ask if something is wrong, and if you need anything. This is a very attractive attribute of Mormonism that many people define as why they like Mormonism, and also a reason why people don’t leave, even if/when they stop believing the doctrines themselves.
So being a new Catholic, I am still forming relationships. If all you go to is Mass, you won’t build those. Mass is for worship, not socializing. You have to pay attention to what is in the parish bulletin, and if something interests you, you have to take the initiative to be there and participate. You can also contact the parish office and let them know you are looking for something to do. There is always something to do!
Also, if your parish has a coffee hour after Mass, that is a good place to meet people.
That is unfortunate, and no, there is no excuse.
I agree, this is most unfortunate. I don’t have the experience of being a Catholic to tell you what happened. I can say, that Pope John Paul and now Benedict are very strong on encouraging people to discern a religious life. And I believe it is having a positive effect. I know young people who are joining both clergy and religious orders, and I know very few people well enough to be aware of this.
Yes, they can. My parish, I believe, does. Our priest is always addressing this sort of thing. Encouraging the building of community. We have all sorts of groups, from youth to old age.
Also, there was a thread a couple of days ago, a family moving into Utah. Before they moved they had contacted the parish and there were going to be 3 Catholic families ready and waiting to help them move into their house. These sort of things go on, just in the Catholic world, people seem to just do them and you don’t hear about them unless you know someone.
I agree, the churches that have broken off from the Catholic Church have taken themselves away from the Body of Christ. We miss them, in more ways than you are talking about.
And they too are missing being a part of that Body.No, I don’t believe that at all. If I did, I wouldn’t be Catholic.
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excaliber
Guest
so for a long time blacks were like…baptised catholics, but not able to be confirmed.
How terrible!!
And this is supposed to be a church with the ability to speak directly to God??
How terrible!!
And this is supposed to be a church with the ability to speak directly to God??
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RebeccaJ
Guest
A good comparison.
I think the quote of the person who said they felt like a guest in their father’s house is a good summation. Obviously they were people who believed the Mormon church doctrines, but were always on the outside looking in. Always a guest, as we are when we visit a new church for the first time. I find that incredibly sad.
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PaulDupre
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Where do you live? Some areas of the country are experiencing loss of Catholic population as those people relocate to different areas.
Some areas of the country see Catholic parishes overflowing and waiting lists to get into seminaries. My diocese (Orange County, CA) is such an area. My parish built a new, bigger church a few years ago and we’re already busting at the seams. My parish has 5 priests and 2 deacons. Our lay ministries are dynamic. I am a lector, and now my son has been called to be a lector as well.
One thing you should realize about deacons - it takes a lot of time and expense to become a deacon. You have to go through the seminary, just like a priest does. And you have to pay for it yourself, unless you have some kind of scholarship. It is very demanding and most men who work full time and support a family simply cannot do it. Also, if the man is married, his wife must agree to join him in some of the training and assist him in his ministry. Not all wives are equipped and willing to do that.
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teancum79
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I don’t know.
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teancum79
Guest
the Bible does not say whether or not some in the early church had more than one wife.
I don’t think the Jews cared one way or another how a group they thought was a cult changed over time.
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teancum79
Guest
May this thread has gotten interesting Paul is lying through his teeth which is new and horse monkey is spewing half truths (though thats been a theme)
I challenge both of you to go up a bit be honest and allow people to make decisions without all the lies half truths and almost pure fertilizer you spread about a religion you so clearly don’t under stand.
I challenge both of you to go up a bit be honest and allow people to make decisions without all the lies half truths and almost pure fertilizer you spread about a religion you so clearly don’t under stand.
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excaliber
Guest
We are on the same page.Yes, I agree, you should study and pray and ask for God’s guidance.
I left Mormonism a long time ago, decades, and became and atheist. I was baptized a Catholic last March. When I first started going to Mass, yes, it was the prayers, the ritual, and the people that I liked. As an atheist, I missed having a place to belong.
That is not why I became a Catholic. It is much deeper than that. When I started studying about the Catholic faith I had no intention of getting baptized. God led me here, and there is no where else for me to be. The Eucharist is a big part of that, I can’t even describe how profound it is to me.
Sacramental continuity was something that was important to me. You can read in early Christian writings a description of the worship of a Christian community, and find exactly the same thing going on at Mass today. And I mean more than in the activity of how it is done, I mean, in a Sacramental sense. They are unchanged, divine, gift. Something that is not found in any of the restoration churches, and few of the Protestant denominations.
Community is important to me. I too struggled with figuring out how to be an active part of my Catholic parish. I don’t know how JW’s work, but in Mormonism, you can’t get away from being a part of the community, even if you wanted to. If you don’t show up for a church function, someone calls to ask if something is wrong, and if you need anything. This is a very attractive attribute of Mormonism that many people define as why they like Mormonism, and also a reason why people don’t leave, even if/when they stop believing the doctrines themselves.
So being a new Catholic, I am still forming relationships. If all you go to is Mass, you won’t build those. Mass is for worship, not socializing. You have to pay attention to what is in the parish bulletin, and if something interests you, you have to take the initiative to be there and participate. You can also contact the parish office and let them know you are looking for something to do. There is always something to do!
Also, if your parish has a coffee hour after Mass, that is a good place to meet people.
That is unfortunate, and no, there is no excuse.
I agree, this is most unfortunate. I don’t have the experience of being a Catholic to tell you what happened. I can say, that Pope John Paul and now Benedict are very strong on encouraging people to discern a religious life. And I believe it is having a positive effect. I know young people who are joining both clergy and religious orders, and I know very few people well enough to be aware of this.
Yes, they can. My parish, I believe, does. Our priest is always addressing this sort of thing. Encouraging the building of community. We have all sorts of groups, from youth to old age.
Also, there was a thread a couple of days ago, a family moving into Utah. Before they moved they had contacted the parish and there were going to be 3 Catholic families ready and waiting to help them move into their house. These sort of things go on, just in the Catholic world, people seem to just do them and you don’t hear about them unless you know someone.
I agree, the churches that have broken off from the Catholic Church have taken themselves away from the Body of Christ. We miss them, in more ways than you are talking about.
No, I don’t believe that at all. If I did, I wouldn’t be Catholic.
The most important thing is the body and blood of christ.
The reason EVERYONE is supposed to go to church is for worship and to give praise…AND TO LOVE AND INSIGHT TO FINE WORKS. I disagree with the fact that catholics are encouraged to be introverted…directly contrary to scripture that says the custom of meeting together basicly envolves encourageing each other.
It makes no sence that Catholics can go to Church and speak to Mary and Other saints, knowing that this will not make God Jealous…but for some reason talking to eachother is bad.
Speaking from experience…a new convert will not understand that his Church canot offer him christian fellowship unless HIS WORK SCHEDULE alows him to do something in a bulletin.
I respectfully disagree with 4 churches FULL OF PEOPLE…but only one qualified to be a priest.
And people who are introverted…the exact opposite of scripture.
You should be able to go to church
and give praise, Worship,hear scripture preached, and have christian fellowship.
No church should be able to do anything better then the Catholic church…why are baptists choirs so good you could cry, JW’s can evangelis and study there bottoms of,Pentecostals can cause low level earthquakes giving praise.
I have heard baptist preaching so good I wished I could record it and
listen again and again…may I respectfully say that we have probably all heard homolys so bland that we wish we never hear anything like that again.
All things considerd am I wrong in concluding that The body and blood of christ is the strength of the Catholic and Orthodox…the magisterium is only found in the catholic church…however prodestants are actually stronger in other areas…if we are just honest, is that not correct?
And the fact that prodestants are so good at being Christian, gives them the false impresion that they must be correct in doctrine, and the only way they could be correct
is if there was a great apostasy.
that’s what I think we are dealing with here.
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