For JWs and LDS

[J_C]

I don’t know how JW’s work, but in Mormonism, you can’t get away from being a part of the community, even if you wanted to. If you don’t show up for a church function, someone calls to ask if something is wrong, and if you need anything. This is a very attractive attribute of Mormonism that many people define as why they like Mormonism, and also a reason why people don’t leave, even if/when they stop believing the doctrines themselves.

it isn’t just the mormans, many of the fundamentalist sects operate the same way. they pay very close atttention to who comes, who goes, when and where. when I was in one of these cults if I dindn’t come to church for two sundays or wednesdays in a row a search party would arrive at my door, unannounced. three or four of them would come in plop down on my couch and start looking around the house for signs of sinful behavior, like copies of ladies home journal, or other such “worldly” materials.

i realize that some people appreciate this sort of attention, but I hated it, and certainly would not tolerate anything of the sort now that I’m older and more willing to assert myself. I greatly appreciate the anonymity of the Catholic Church. I am involved in small groups that share deeply, but when it comes to the Mass I want to be left alone with God, i do NOT want any backslapping and jawboning going on.

 

[rmcmullan]

It was the Levitical priesthood, which was the preparatory priesthood that looked forward to the coming of the Christ, who is our one High Priest, “a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizadek”.

SO the Jews rejection of the Messiah pretty much ended the authority of their priesthood. That was the end of the Levitical priesthood?

 

[excaliber]

it isn’t just the mormans, many of the fundamentalist sects operate the same way. they pay very close atttention to who comes, who goes, when and where. when I was in one of these cults if I dindn’t come to church for two sundays or wednesdays in a row a search party would arrive at my door, unannounced. three or four of them would come in plop down on my couch and start looking around the house for signs of sinful behavior, like copies of ladies home journal, or other such “worldly” materials.

i realize that some people appreciate this sort of attention, but I hated it, and certainly would not tolerate anything of the sort now that I’m older and more willing to assert myself. I greatly appreciate the anonymity of the Catholic Church. I am involved in small groups that share deeply, but when it comes to the Mass I want to be left alone with God, i do NOT want any backslapping and jawboning going on.

Can someone please explain why they think the Catholic Church canot have CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP, without going to the extreem of cults???

I don’t agree with extreme supervision, and I don’t agree with extreem introverts.

Why must everything be extreme?

 

[J_C]

Can someone please explain why they think the Catholic Church canot have CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP, without going to the extreem of cults???

I don’t agree with extreme supervision, and I don’t agree with extreem introverts.

Why must everything be extreme?

wondering why you think that Catholics do not have Christian Fellowship…

most parishes are too large for full group stuff like this. in my parish we have literally a couple dozen of focused fellowship groups. for instance I am part of a group of around 20 people called Faith in the Workplace where we fellowship under guidance of our pastor and a sister, on issues of bringing our faith into our jobs and workplaces. I am also part of two other smaller groups.

But when I joined the parish I had to seek out these people. I had to take the first steps. They did not force themselves on me. I led myself to them.

 

[hosemonkey]

May this thread has gotten interesting Paul is lying through his teeth which is new and horse monkey is spewing half truths (though thats been a theme)

I challenge both of you to go up a bit be honest and allow people to make decisions without all the lies half truths and almost pure fertilizer you spread about a religion you so clearly don’t under stand.

I probably know more about mormonism than you do. You study it with the eyes of belief. I study it like a pathologist studies a strange form of cancer. Paul is NOT lying and the cites that I have posted come from your own “prophet.” Deny that polygamy was suspended under threat of invasion and denial of statehood. Deny that the granting of “priesthood” was done under extreme civil
rights pressure and fear of losing prospective converts. mormonism was extremely racist and continues to be in many predominately mormon areas. “White and delightsome” is still operating.

 

[teancum79]

I probably know more about mormonism than you do. You study it with the eyes of belief. I study it like a pathologist studies a strange form of cancer. Paul is NOT lying and the cites that I have posted come from your own “prophet.” Deny that polygamy was suspended under threat of invasion and denial of statehood. Deny that the granting of “priesthood” was done under extreme civil
rights pressure and fear of losing prospective converts. mormonism was extremely racist and continues to be in many predominately mormon areas. “White and delightsome” is still operating.

You are wrong very much so.

The problem you have is you can only see error. You comparing the kingdom of God to a cancer is disturbing. You and Paul repeatedly post misleading information often from highly questionable sources.

Blind hate is not knowledge. You’ve shown you hatred and ignorance often, but I’ve yet to see much that counts for knowledge and understanding.

 

[hosemonkey]

You are wrong very much so.

The problem you have is you can only see error. You comparing the kingdom of God to a cancer is disturbing. You and Paul repeatedly post misleading information often from highly questionable sources.

Blind hate is not knowledge. You’ve shown you hatred and ignorance often, but I’ve yet to see much that counts for knowledge and understanding.

Is your “prophet” Brigham Young, a “highly questionable source?”
False religions do not occupy a place in the Kingdom of God.
“Error has no rights.”

 

[majick275]

SO the Jews rejection of the Messiah pretty much ended the authority of their priesthood. That was the end of the Levitical priesthood?

actually Jesus death ended it. with the once for all sacrifice of himself there was no longer a need for the sacrificial ordinances in the temple. the veil was rent to show that no longer would all communication with the almighty be channeled through a single high priest. Jesus became our eternal high priest and enabled a closer relationship between god and man than was previously attainable. there was no reason for the levitical priesthood to continue. there job was eternally fulfilled by Jesus. He called men to a new priesthood and taught them personally so that they could serve as stewards of his church until he comes in person again.there is an unbroken line of those priests still extant today in the catholic church. ( i respect the claim of the orthodox here and recognize that of the lutherans and anglicans but as they chose to depart from the church i believe they invalidated themselves)

 

[teancum79]

Why then, in Mormonism, is the curse for sin always a black skin?

Brigham Young, the successor to Joseph Smith and second prophet of the Mormon Church said:

More here.

Paul I’m calling you on this one.

A. Dark skin is not a curse it is a mark and far from the only one mentioned in LDS belief.

B. There are many "curses for sin.

Now is it too hard for you to be a good little catholic and misleading people. You accuses the LDS of misrepresenting information yet you do it often.

 

[hosemonkey]

Paul I’m calling you on this one.

A. Dark skin is not a curse it is a mark and far from the only one mentioned in LDS belief.

B. There are many "curses for sin.

Now is it too hard for you to be a good little catholic and misleading people. You accuses the LDS of misrepresenting information yet you do it often.

According to the Book of Mormon, the church’s sacred scripture, God darkens people who sin. This is the Mormon church’s explanation for the color of the American Indians:
“…wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them.”
(Book of Mormon, page 61, 2 Nephi 5, verse 21)
“And the skins of the Lamanites were DARK, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which WAS A CURSE upon them because of their transgression…” (Book of Mormon, page 201, Alma 3, verse 6)
“…for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a DARK, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us,…” (Book of Mormon, page 468, Mormon 5, verse 15)
The Book of Mormon, however, predicts that the Indians will repent of their sins and become white:
“…and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a WHITE AND DELIGHTSOME PEOPLE.”
(Book of Mormon, page 102, 2 Nephi 30, verse 6. (The word “WHITE” was changed to “PURE” in later editions of the Book of Mormon))

 

[zaffiroborant]

Where do you live?
One thing you should realize about deacons - it takes a lot of time and expense to become a deacon. You have to go through the seminary, just like a priest does. And you have to pay for it yourself, unless you have some kind of scholarship. It is very demanding and most men who work full time and support a family simply cannot do it. Also, if the man is married, his wife must agree to join him in some of the training and assist him in his ministry. Not all wives are equipped and willing to do that.Paul

My aunt was like that, she wouldn’t agree to my uncle becoming a deacon until all my cousins were in high school or beyond. She said if anything happened to her she wanted my uncle to be able to get remarried and her kids to have a mom. Something he couldn’t do if he was a deacon since they can not marry after ordination.

 

[majick275]

You are wrong very much so.

The problem you have is you can only see error. You comparing the kingdom of God to a cancer is disturbing. You and Paul repeatedly post misleading information often from highly questionable sources.

Blind hate is not knowledge. You’ve shown you hatred and ignorance often, but I’ve yet to see much that counts for knowledge and understanding.

how are the words of LDs apostles and prophets from verifiable documents misleading? oh…yes they are. just not in the way that you would like. you tend not to post any sources questionable or otherwise. you either don’t understand mormon doctrine or you are deliberately camouflaging it to make it seem more palatable to christians. a known con man claims to speak for God and claims that all churches are wrong and the scriptures in error and only he can replace them with what is correct. he has only a handful of close friends and family members to back his claims and then only with their testimony. he “reveals” new scripture by stone gazing in a hat and declares new doctrines and practices that are in direct contradiction with known christian beliefs to the extent of justifying what is considered mortal sin and you want to talk about questionable sources?

good luck with that. i noticed you coming back here after a brief absence…what called you?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t believe Catholics are introverted. Sure, there are introverted individuals (I am one of those), but there are extroverts to balance us out.

God is not jealous of our praying with Mary and the Saints, any more than He is jealous if I were to pray with you. Which would be, not at all!

Christian fellowship is one of the topics we covered in our RCIA class. For the parish I was in they explained them all and told us how to be a part of them. Who to contact, what the group was about, etc. I however am attending a different parish than I did for RCIA. So, I had to do a little figuring out on my own. I knew I had to do this because I was taught it in RCIA.

Oh my, you should come to our Cathedral and hear the music there! It is amazing! The music at the parish I usually attend goes from so-so to very good. Of course, there are days where it is not so good at all, but hey, God doesn’t mind. We sing off key but it is all in praise of Him.

Every parish is different. The Cathedral I go to has a very “high” Mass, with much of the liturgy is sung, including in Latin. My usual parish is low key and not all that flashy. I switch between them because sometimes, I am in the mood for a Mass that includes all the singing and Latin, and other times, I need the comfort of suburbia and English.

And if you can sing, by all means, join the choir. Please! You don’t have to be a Catholic!

The parish at our Newman Center has a rock band that plays the liturgical music! Not for everyone but there are those that find it a great fit. One parish here in the mountains has a folksy guitarist. We’re not cookie cutter! If you are going to try out Catholic churches, you can first check out the parish online. And then go to several of them. You will see, the liturgy is the same, but they all have their differences. It is one of the joys of attending a new or different parish, in my opinion.

No, I don’t believe that Catholics don’t know how to be Christian. I found that fellowship very strong in our RCIA class. When I go to the Cathedral, I am very happy to see my fellow converts, and they are glad to see me. We sit together at Mass, go up for communion together, and pray together, and talk away during coffee hour.

In my new parish, I’m getting there. I joined a bookclub, one that is going through a spiritual book and the papal encyclical Spe Salvi. I have met some very nice people there and when I see them at Mass we say hello. That bookclub has ended and so I am looking out for the next way in which I can be a part of my parish.

And actually, I am like J_C, I prefer this. I can pick and choose what it is I want to be a part of and when. In Mormonism, you are assigned. You can of course say ‘no’, but most people do not say no because the assignment is supposedly done by God.

In Catholicism, you pray for God’s guidance and you discern where it is that God is leading you. So when I joined that bookclub, the leader of it was surprised at how many people the Holy Spirit had led to be a part of our group. Surprised because there were more than he expected!

 

[PaulDupre]

SO the Jews rejection of the Messiah pretty much ended the authority of their priesthood.

Is that what Mormons believe?

That was the end of the Levitical priesthood?

The Levitical priesthood was done a way with entirely, because it was fulfilled by Jesus at his atonement.

When Jesus had taken the wine, he said “It is accomplished.” And bowing his head, he handed over his spirit.
-John 19:30

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
-Matt 27:51a

At this moment, the animal sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood, the 7th day sabbath and all traces of the old covenant were done away with, replaced by the New and Everlasting Covenant in His Blood.

The Jewish hierarchy’s rejecting Christ had nothing to do with their loss of authority. All authority was now in the hands of the apostles and those they would ordain, through the one priesthood of Jesus, the one after the order of Melchizadek.

By the way, whom does the LDS organization believe Melchizadek to be?

Paul

 

[majick275]

Paul I’m calling you on this one.

A. Dark skin is not a curse it is a mark and far from the only one mentioned in LDS belief.

B. There are many "curses for sin.

Now is it too hard for you to be a good little catholic and misleading people. You accuses the LDS of misrepresenting information yet you do it often.

well let’s see what LDS leaders taught about it:

Joseph fielding Smith?

*"The dark skin was the sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord and the Lamanites becoming a “loathsome and filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.’’ The Lord commanded the Nephites not to intermarry with them, for if they did they would partake of the curse.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 3, p.122)

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. Doctrines of Salvation p. 61*

Mark E. Petersen?

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood… This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa–if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory. Race Problems – As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954

Bruce R. Mconkie? (and i’m being generous in not using his worst quotes here)

*Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.Mormon Doctrine, p. 114 *

Spencer Kimball?

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather…These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.General Conference Report, October, 1960.
Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923

these aren’t the old fiery sermons of brigham young or john taylor but rather modern LDS apostles and prophets. this is what they taught on this subject. so can we please stop the charade that mormon doctrine isn’t racist?

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul I’m calling you on this one.

A. Dark skin is not a curse it is a mark and far from the only one mentioned in LDS belief.

B. There are many "curses for sin.

Now is it too hard for you to be a good little catholic and misleading people. You accuses the LDS of misrepresenting information yet you do it often.

Sorry but you’re wrong. Your own prophets and your scriptures have consistently called the dark skin a curse - “The curse of Cain, the flat nose and black skin”, “An exceedingly sore cursing - a skin of blackness”, etc.

I am just quoting your own prophets, seers and revelators. Your argument is not with me but with them. Why do you call people liars when they just quote your own leaders?

You can quote the popes all you want and I will not complain.

Would you like me to post a collection of LDS quotes wherein black skin is called a curse? There are lots of them.

Edit: Oh, I see Majick has beat me to it. But there are plenty more (and worse) if you’d like me to post them.

 

[PaulDupre]

My aunt was like that, she wouldn’t agree to my uncle becoming a deacon until all my cousins were in high school or beyond. She said if anything happened to her she wanted my uncle to be able to get remarried and her kids to have a mom. Something he couldn’t do if he was a deacon since they can not marry after ordination.

Yes, it’s a huge commitment - in some sense bigger than the commitment to the priesthood, in that the man’s entire family is affected and must share the commitment.

Paul

 

[teancum79]

Did or did not Christ himself place limits on who the gospel was to be preached to at first?

Did or did not Christ compare the Samaritans to dogs?

Did or did not The Lord through Moses restrict the blessings of the priesthood to a specific linage for a very long time?

Anyone with a moderate understanding of the Bible knows the answers to this. yet you only apply the lets make them look racist skills to the LDS not to the Bible and its leaders you hold so dear.

Your right lets stop the charades. You cry foul for nearly the same behaviors our own savior engaged in, but only if a “mormon” does it.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Why do the LDS and JWs put so much significance in a relatively few obscure Bible passages that allude to a Great Apostasy and not fear the strong exhortations of Paul about being wary of false prophets?

Because they are not grounded in truth. If they cannot proclaim Jesus as God, then, really, what sort of interpretive skills of the Holy Scriptures do you think they posess?

 

[majick275]

Did or did not Christ himself place limits on who the gospel was to be preached to at first?

with a limited number of individuals to preach and in their lifetime they received the great commission to go preach to all. it is important to note that even when they were preaching to the jews jesus still accepted romans and samritans.

Did or did not Christ compare the Samaritans to dogs?

yet how did that story end? what did jesus DO?

Did or did not The Lord through Moses restrict the blessings of the priesthood to a specific linage for a very long time?

and was the levitical priesthood required for “exaltation”? no , there is no analogy here. israelites who were not priests were entitled to the same eternal blessings as the levites.

Anyone with a moderate understanding of the Bible knows the answers to this. yet you only apply the lets make them look racist skills to the LDS not to the Bible and its leaders you hold so dear.

ye do err not knowing the scriptures. your “oracles of the lord” have already done this in great detail. punishment for pre-existence sins? please…“who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind?” and Jesus said…

Your right lets stop the charades. You cry foul for nearly the same behaviors our own savior engaged in, but only if a “mormon” does it.

nice…now racism is christlike?..you sound like the church of jesus christ christian now.