"For many" vs. "For all men"

[Neil_Anthony]

How come in the English translation of the mass, the words of consecration change “for many” to “for all”? Was this just done for the english translation, or for all of the translations? Is there some good reason for it? I keep hearing BAD reasons for it and was wondering if there is some justification?

WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR
MANY SHALL BE SHED
UNTO THE REMISSION OF
SINS.

IT WILL BE
SHED FOR YOU AND FOR
ALL MEN SO THAT SINS
MAY BE FORGIVEN.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I wouldn’t usually recommend Wikipedia but this link may help to identify some of the difficulties surrounding the meaningful translation of pro multis into English en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_multis

 

[bpbasilphx]

Oh, are we starting another thread on “pro multis” for a change?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I wouldn’t usually recommend Wikipedia but this link may help to identify some of the difficulties surrounding the meaningful translation of pro multis into English en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_multis

I’m sorry, if I had known what “pro multis” was, I could have done a search instead of starting a new thread. Sorry about that.

However in that wikipedia article, it says this"

This understanding came to be seen by some as too exclusive, so in the Late 1960s, when a substantially revised version of the Catholic Mass was released, Jesus’ words were changed in English and most other languages to “for all” to emphasize the universality of His mission. In a few languages, including the normative Latin, the traditional “for many” was retained.

Surely there was a better reason for the ‘translation’ than just that “for many” came to be seen by some as too exclusive!? Why did the church allow the translation to actually change the words rather than just translate them? It just doesn’t seem to make any sense… we don’t change the words of Jesus because we ‘come to see them as too exclusive’???

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Wikipedia is not infallible And it is certainly not so on the reasons for choosing ‘for all’ instead of ‘for many’ as the English translation of the Latin pro multis As for trying to convey Jesus’ words: He spoke Aramaic; the Gospels were written in Greek and translated into Latin… Talk about a search for meaning

 

[iamscifimike]

There must be a difference in that “all” are eligible but only “many” will receive.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How come in the English translation of the mass, the words of consecration change “for many” to “for all”? Was this just done for the english translation, or for all of the translations? Is there some good reason for it? I keep hearing BAD reasons for it and was wondering if there is some justification?

WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR
MANY SHALL BE SHED
UNTO THE REMISSION OF
SINS.

IT WILL BE
SHED FOR YOU AND FOR
ALL MEN SO THAT SINS
MAY BE FORGIVEN.

Salvation given to us through the sheding of Christ blood, is open to all men, not just the elect few.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

Salvation given to us through the sheding of Christ blood, is open to all men, not just the elect few.

Jim

Exactly, but not all will accept that Gift, that is why Christ said his sacrifice was “for many”

And that is one of the changes in the new English language Missal, the Canon will now say “for many”

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Exactly, but not all will accept that Gift, that is why Christ said his sacrifice was “for many”

And that is one of the changes in the new English language Missal, the Canon will now say “for many”

Do you know when it’s coming out?
It scares me that people who would have the nerve to change the words of Christ were given the authority to ‘translate’ the mass for us! What right do they have to change the words? They were supposed to translate! Why didn’t anyone stop them?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Brendan

Exactly, but not all will accept that Gift, that is why Christ said his sacrifice was “for many”

Depends on which Gospel you read. Luke says,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.”

Did this mean only those seated at the table around Jesus?

And that is one of the changes in the new English language Missal, the Canon will now say “for many”

Hasn’t been approved yet, has it? Even if it has, it won’t bother me one way or another.

Jesus died for all, so that sins may be forgiven. His death isn’t limited to only Catholics, or those who have heard the gospel. Even the Church teaches that those, through no fault of their own, who have not heard the gospel, through the mercy of God, may receive salvation.

It doesn’t confuse me whether they use, “for many” or “for all.”

Jim

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Do you know when it’s coming out?
It scares me that people who would have the nerve to change the words of Christ were given the authority to ‘translate’ the mass for us! What right do they have to change the words? They were supposed to translate! Why didn’t anyone stop them?

Have you ever tried to translate a difficult concept from one language to another? Nobody intentionally ‘changed the words of Christ’. They attempted to render in English the meaning of His words which came to them from the Latin translation of the Greek rendering of words originally spoken in Aramaic.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Have you ever tried to translate a difficult concept from one language to another? Nobody intentionally ‘changed the words of Christ’. They attempted to render in English the meaning of His words which came to them from the Latin translation of the Greek rendering of words originally spoken in Aramaic.

But the Greek version in the new testament even says “for many”, and according to that wikipedia article, although its ambiguous in latin, it isn’t ambiguous in greek…

 

[Yellow_Belle]

But the Greek version in the new testament even says “for many”, and according to that wikipedia article, although its ambiguous in latin, it isn’t ambiguous in greek…

But wouldn’t you need to know how the concept was rendered in Aramaic to see if the Greek version is correct in the first place? And I’m afraid you would get an argument from some quarters about whether or not the use of ‘polloi’ in Greek refers to many people or all the people

For the record, I would be happy to see pro multis rendered as ‘for many’ but then I’m neither a very proficient linguist nor a scripture scholar.

 

[Brendan]

But wouldn’t you need to know how the concept was rendered in Aramaic to see if the Greek version is correct in the first place? .

By definition, the Canonical Gospels are correct as they were written by the Evangelists. Since they were written in Greek, they are correct in the Greek.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The currently approved English translation (at least in the U.S.) is “for all”. The Latin of course is “pro multis”:

Accipite et bibite ex eo omnes: hic est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et æterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.

In my opinion, this is one of the extremely rare areas that ICEL actually did a good job in translating. The meaning behind the Latin “pro multis” is NOT the many to the exclusion of some. It is meant for the many - as in the multitudes.

The life-giving sacrifice of the Cross, in which the Precious Blood poured forth to cleanse us from our iniquity, that sacrifice was for all mankind. The fact that some (or many, or even most) may not accept the inestimable gift that has been bestowed upon us by God, it does not negate the fact that the sacrifice was offered on their behalf.

The upcoming translations, which are awaiting Vatican approval, are expected to be available sometime in 2008-2009 (if approval is granted). I also recall a few months back the Holy Father granting permission for Priests to use “for the many” in the Eucharistic Prayer (I’ll have to search for that one).

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Does anyone know whether the eastern orthodox and catholic rites say “for many” or “for all”?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Does anyone know whether the eastern orthodox and catholic rites say “for many” or “for all”?

Keep in mind that some of these are never said in English (i.e. Maronite Institution Narrative is always in Aramaic) and that none of them are rooted in Latin. That being said, the English translations of every one I have seen is rendered “for many”. But, they have other places within the Anaphora (and the Liturgy as a whole) that tell of the sacrifice for all mankind (if one takes the stance that “for many” implies that the sacrifice was not for some).

 

[rwoehmke]

Exactly, but not all will accept that Gift, that is why Christ said his sacrifice was “for many”

And that is one of the changes in the new English language Missal, the Canon will now say “for many”

So when my Baptist friends tell me Jesus died only for Christians, they are not far from correct?

 

[Image_of_God]

So when my Baptist friends tell me Jesus died only for Christians, they are not far from correct?

It all goes back to Thomism. Even a non-Christian could recieve the graces of Christ and be saved. But “for many” I believe confirms the the doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas and of all Christianity that only some will be saved. Christ died for all and sincerely wills the salvation of all, but this great grace he has given will only become active in some because only some will except it. It is not however limited to Christians but to anyone who excepts this grace. Non-Christians can except this grace through baptism of desire and obedience to natural law.

 

[Brendan]

Does anyone know whether the eastern orthodox and catholic rites say “for many” or “for all”?

From the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

Priest (silently): With these blessed powers we also, O Master, Lover of men cry and say: Holy are You and all holy, You, and You; only-begotten Son, and Your Holy Spirit; holy are You and all holy and magnificent is Your glory, who so loved Your world that You gave Your only begotten Son, that everyone who believes in Him should not perish, but should have life everlasting; Who, having come and having fulfilled the whole Divine plan concerning us, on the night when He was betrayed, or rather, when He surrendered Himself for the life of the world, He took bread into His holy and all pure and Immaculate hands, gave thanks and blessed, (priest blesses bread) sanctified, broke and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

PRIEST: Take, eat, THIS IS MY BODY, which is broken for you for the remission of sins.

PEOPLE: Amen.

Priest (silently): In like manner t (priest blesses chalice) also the chalice, after the supper, saying:

PRIEST: Drink of this all, THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.