For MEN only !

[WatchingMedia]

All that was pointed out to the OP was that in a Traditional Catholic forum people aren’t going to be talked into becoming EMHCs. The person who brought this up was very charitable and said something like ‘other than that good post’. The OP then threw a hissy fit accusing that person of not being Catholic.

If you think someone is not Catholic because they don’t like EMHCs then it would be prudent to stay off the Traditional board. You should also consider whether this is a breach of the Eight Commandment, then go to Confession.

Someone else pointed out that the OP is known for misogynist attitudes like “no women in the Santuary”. Most Traditionalist would counter with “no laity in the Sanctuary”. Such sexist attitudes don’t contribute to productive discussions.

If you don’t follow the teachings of the Pope and Magesterium, you are a heretic or schismatic. It’s that simple.
You can not pick and choose what you want to believe. - or worse yet - what you propogate to others.
Read your Catechism. #2089.
When you tell men not to assist their Parish Priest, you are “not in communion with the Faithful”.
My post stands, unless you can “document” where I am wrong.

Name calling is juvenile and meant to demean. In fact is worse when you “lie” in your post about another person.
For you to propogate that I am a “misogonist” is laughable.
You read your Catechism regarding Commandment 8.

I’m a Grandmother who likes Men to be MEN. - Not wusses without leadership. Women should not have to do mens’ jobs as well as their own.
Lazy (sloth) is a captial sin. #1866
Pride is a capital sin. #1866

There are not enough Priests and Deacons to cover what you want done. What Country have you been living in ?

(My quote from the Vatican site on SSPX still stands, until our Catholic Pope changes it. vatican.va/roman_curia/se…ishops_en.html
“The remission of the excommunication has freed the four bishops from a very serious canonical penalty, but it has not changed the juridical status of the Society of Saint Pius X, which presently does not enjoy any canonical recognition by the Catholic Church.”

 

[floresco]

I’m a Grandmother who likes Men to be MEN. - Not wusses without leadership. Women should not have to do mens’ jobs as well as their own.

There is an internal inconsistency here. By coming and lecturing men about their supposed duties as you have done in this thread, you are taking a leadership role over men. Women who want men to be leaders need to let men be leaders. Trying to teach men what they should do while complaining about lack of male leadership is not very reasonable.

 

[maurin]

WhatMs risible, watching media, is that you denounce name calling while calling names. What’s hypocritical is demanding absolute fidelity to the Pope while going much further than the Pope does in your name calling.

Any credibility your op had, you have managed in a very short time to lose.

 

[floresco]

Good post. Sometimes it seems as if it’s quite dangerous to post at all on this sub-forum unless you fit a very narrow definition of Traditionalist. This thread is a case in point; the OP is a very good post talking about Father’s Day and being a good example, but GASP! he mentioned EMHCs so he’s obviously coming in here to stir up trouble (and by implication must be some kind of crazy progressivist liberal nut). Not that I agree with his response accusing others of not being Catholic for gently reminding him that people here won’t be EMHCs… We could use a lot more charity on both sides.

While I do agree with you about a need for more charity all around, I am puzzled about why the OP posted to the Traditional Catholic subforum. The OP really does not seem to share many common assumptions with trads, so I wonder why we were picked as the audience for this Father’s Day message.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Instead of waging World War Three on one another or beating one another with brickbats * over fine points of when someone is allowed to touch a Consecrated Host or not, how about getting the 2/3 of Catholics who don’t go to Mass to show up!

Or how about teaching the Real Presence?

There isn’t physically enough room in the church building for EVERYONE to participate in serving at Mass. I swear I have almost seen fist fights break out over who will count the collection or do the readings.

It’s like the crew of the Titanic debating over the color of the lifeboats. [Maybe that’s why so many of the Titanic lifeboats actually were launched only partly filled.] [No one believed that the great ship would go down.]

[Can anyone answer this honest non-trick question: Every parish used to have a Holy Name Society. For the men. Now, only a very few have them. What happened?]*

 

[floresco]

There isn’t physically enough room in the church building for EVERYONE to participate in serving at Mass. I swear I have almost seen fist fights break out over who will count the collection or do the readings.

This matches my experience. Just recently I heard someone who is an EMHC complaining about how rarely he gets to help at Mass because there are so many EMHC’s at his parish. As you imply, the liturgical and Mass-related roles have very little to do with real leadership. It would be good, however, to see more leadership by men in their families and in society.

 

[JMJ_coder]

If you are not doing anything at Mass or at home as a Spirtual leader, you may be lazy, or making up “excuses” which are not valid in the Catholic Church.
Don’t make things up to lead others astray.
The post stands and is 100% in accord with the teachings of the Church.

That is way off the mark. Look at the number of potential roles in the Liturgy. Look at the number of people who attend a typical Mass (even today when only ~1/3 of Catholics bother to go to Mass). The overwhelming majority of those at Mass (> 95%) will have no particular role at the Liturgy other than being an attentive participant in the pew. And it has nothing to do with laziness or making up excuses.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Most Traditionalist would counter with “no laity in the Sanctuary”.

Then where will the Altar Servers stand?

 

[ProVobis]

**On a Traditional forum **it will be difficult to convince laymen that their unconcecrated hands can even touch the Blessed Sacrament, let alone allow themselves into the Sanctuary without proper training to serve at the Altar. It is appropriate for the Priest to read the lesson.

Maurin, I completely agree. I don’t consider myself a traditionalist but I understand the sensibilities of the traditionalists for the most part. There always will be that intuitive feeling that something isn’t quite right for the layman to undermine the functions of the priest in any way. I feel in some ways that is justified as there is a higher risk to profanity and sacrilege by those not theologically trained as the priest himself.

 

[Bbigam]

While I do agree with you about a need for more charity all around, I am puzzled about why the OP posted to the Traditional Catholic subforum. The OP really does not seem to share many common assumptions with trads, so I wonder why we were picked as the audience for this Father’s Day message.

Yes, that is a good question. While her (I had assumed it was a man…) OP was a good one, later posts suggest that this may not be the best subforum for her to post that on.

 

[mick321]

up·pi·ty
uhp-i-tee]
–adjective informal .

1. affecting an attitude of inflated self-esteem; haughty; snobbish.
2. rebelliously self-assertive; not inclined to be tractable or deferential.

 

[mick321]

If you don’t follow the teachings of the Pope and Magesterium, you are a heretic or schismatic. It’s that simple.
You can not pick and choose what you want to believe. - or worse yet - what you propogate to others.
Read your Catechism. #2089.
When you tell men not to assist their Parish Priest, you are “not in communion with the Faithful”.
My post stands, unless you can “document” where I am wrong.

Name calling is juvenile and meant to demean. In fact is worse when you “lie” in your post about another person.
For you to propogate that I am a “misogonist” is laughable.
You read your Catechism regarding Commandment 8.

I’m a Grandmother who likes Men to be MEN. - Not wusses without leadership. Women should not have to do mens’ jobs as well as their own.
Lazy (sloth) is a captial sin. #1866
Pride is a capital sin. #1866

There are not enough Priests and Deacons to cover what you want done. What Country have you been living in ?

(My quote from the Vatican site on SSPX still stands, until our Catholic Pope changes it. vatican.va/roman_curia/se…ishops_en.html
“The remission of the excommunication has freed the four bishops from a very serious canonical penalty, but it has not changed the juridical status of the Society of Saint Pius X, which presently does not enjoy any canonical recognition by the Catholic Church.”

up·pi·ty
uhp-i-tee]
–adjective informal .

1. affecting an attitude of inflated self-esteem; haughty; snobbish.
2. rebelliously self-assertive; not inclined to be tractable or deferential.

Happy Holidays.
.​

 

[Lycorth]

Are you Volunteering at your Church for Saturday or Sunday Mass for - Altar Server, Cantor, Eucharistic Minister, Lector, Usher, Greeter?
It’s a great way to do your duty of service and set an example for others, when your time is limited. (You are already at Mass anyway.)
If you have more time - Choir, RCIA teacher, or Deacon (Holy Orders) is something to consider.

I was an Acolyte until I was 24 years old, and hardly a day goes by where I don’t think about doing it again.

Or… I have been considering the Diaconate. Since I am unemployed, I wonder if full-time ministry would also be a paying job? Sure, mundane and perhaps a tad selfish to wonder about, but I’d be lying to admit that it wouldn’t sway my choice a little.

For you Fathers, Step-fathers, and Foster Fathers, are you setting the proper leadership example for your own Family regarding taking your family to - weekly Mass, monthly Confession, daily family Rosaries, and evening bedtime prayers?

Amen. I do Confession at least once a month, and I’d do it weekly if we lived nearer our church. When our son gets old enough to begin learning prayers, we’re more than ready to start him on them. My father started me early on bedtime prayers and for years it was a habit I could not break.

Your living example will influence your Sons’ and Daughters’ lives more than you can imagine. It will not only last your lifetime, but be passed on through your Children to your Grandchildren.

Depending on the age of your Sons, you could be Altar servers together.

Happy Father’s Day.
You have a most important and holy role in the Family.
Please live up to your responsibility as the head of the Family - Protector and Spirtual Leader.

An excellent post; we fathers need to continually re-evaluate ourselves and our approach to make sure we’re as Catholic as possible. We owe our children and families no less

 

[Lycorth]

Then where will the Altar Servers stand?

Any Traditionalist worth his salt would know that an Acolyte is considered part of the clergy.
*
“While acolytes did not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders they were considered part of the clergy, and were considered a step on the way to Holy Orders.”*

From the Wikipedia entry for Acolyte

 

[JReducation]

the purpose of citing DC was to make clear that the Church, contrary to JR’s statement above, teaches that a Priest@ hands are consecrated for the Eucharist. Lest you forget, JPII made it clear that it is a privelege of the Ordained, and others who are destined for further ordination. That is the rule. The third set is the exception,given for just need. But alas, and to the detriment of the Real Presence, it has become the rule. Contrary to the Pope’s clearly stated wishes.

You and the Holy Father are not speaking about the same thing. He is speaking about the Minsiter of the Eucharist, the person who confects the Eucharist. That role is proper to the presbyter, whose hands are consecrated.

You’re trying to speak about the deacon who is the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion, not the priest. His hands are not consecrated nor have they ever been. Deacons have been the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion since the time of Stephen. We have had hundreds of thousands of deacons in all 22 Catholic Churches and 21 Orthodox Churches. They have always been the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. They do not have consecrated hands, because consecrated hands are not required to touch the consecrated host.

Consecrated hands are required of the Minister of the Eucharist, the peson who blesses the bread and wine, confectin the Eucharist. That’s why the ritual calls forth a consecration on the hands and explicitly uses the words “to bless” when the hands are consecrated, because this is the faith of the Church.

Do you see the difference here?

This is why it is untrue to say that one must have consecrated hands to touch the Eucharist. This has never been the case. Even in the Roman Church, the deacons have alwasys distributed the Eucharist. When we had permanent deacons this was the case. Then we no longer had permanent deacons, but only transitional deacons. These transitional deacons also distributed Holy Communion. Now we have both, permanent and transitional deacons and they are equally deacons.

Besides the deacons we always had abbots, abbesses, guardians, acolytes, friars and monks who distributed Holy Communion, since the fourth century. These never went away, as did the permanent deacons. Though the pemanent deacons only went away in the Roman Church, not in the other 21 Catholic Churches. Now they’re back.

It was precisely because we did not have enough permanent deacons that abbots, abbesses, friars, monks and acolytes distributed Holy Communion. Today this is less common, because we have permanent secular deacons to do this and they are the Ordinary Minsiters of Holy Communion.

The priest distributes Holy Communion, because as I said, he never ceases to be a deacon, just a bishop never ceases to be a presbyter. The order are pemanent. One does not eliminate or absorb the other.

John Paul II is speaking of the priest as minister of the Eucharist, not as minister of Holy Communion. They are two different ministries, belonging to two different orders within the one sacrament of Holy Orders. Yes, unconsecrated hands have always touched the consecrated hosts and can touch it, some as extraordinary ministers and others as Ordinary Minsiters (ie. deacons).

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Besides the deacons we always had abbots, abbesses, guardians, acolytes, friars and monks who distributed Holy Communion, since the fourth century. These never went away, as did the permanent deacons. Though the pemanent deacons only went away in the Roman Church, not in the other 21 Catholic Churches. Now they’re back.

It was precisely because we did not have enough permanent deacons that abbots, abbesses, friars, monks and acolytes distributed Holy Communion. Today this is less common, because we have permanent secular deacons to do this and they are the Ordinary Minsiters of Holy Communion.

I find it strange that St. Thomas Aquinas would not be aware of this given that he himself was a Dominican.

 

[JReducation]

Any Traditionalist worth his salt would know that an Acolyte is considered part of the clergy.
*
“While acolytes did not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders they were considered part of the clergy, and were considered a step on the way to Holy Orders.”*

From the Wikipedia entry for Acolyte

The key word here is “considered”. Acolytes were incorrectly considered part of the clergy. The truth is that they were not part of the clergy, since they were not ordained. That’s why Canon Law of 1983 tried to correct this “consideration” by changing the language from the order of acolytes to the ministry of acolyte.

If truth be told, most acolytes never became priests. Every monk and every friars is an acolyte. This is a tradition that dates back to St. Benedict. But most monks and friars are not clerics. Only about 20% are clerics. If you told Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Cistercians, Trappists, or Camaldolese that they were orders of clerics they would ask the king to behead you. This is a a complete dismissal of their consecrated life as monks and mendicant friars. Yet all of us are perment acolytes and lectors. This is part of the ministry of a monk and a friar.

The problem is that most of you folks are used to living and working within the minority, that is secular clergy. You have only been exposed to them. The always conferred the ministries of acolyte and lector on their seminarians as part of their preparation for Holy Orders. This is no longer required of secular clergy. They can be ordained deacons without the other ministries. Only friars and monks are required to by acolytes and lectors, but most friars and monks are never allowed to be clerics (deacons, priests, or bishops). They retain their canonical status as consecrated non clerical men. They are neither lay (in the secular sense) nor clergy in the ordained sense. We are in a totally separate state. We have always made up the majority of acolytes and lectors. It’s just that most people have very little contact with us and those who do, let’s say through one of our ministries, have no idea what goes on behind the doors of the enclosure. Until after Vatican II, we were never allowed to share it with the laity. Even today, we have been told not to share too much about our inner lives with the laity. That’s why the Holy Father has asked us to leave and close parishes, unless secular priests can take over.

It seems that every time we allow the laity a glimpse into the cloister something is misunderstood or someone is confused. That’s not a nice thing to do to people.

But to go back to the point, Tradition is that all men in solemn vows are acolytes and lectors, but only 20% ever become clergy. The rest have other duties in the Church. Men in solemn vows outnumbered secular clerics until about the mid 20th century.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

You and the Holy Father are not speaking about the same thing. He is speaking about the Minsiter of the Eucharist, the person who confects the Eucharist. That role is proper to the presbyter, whose hands are consecrated.

You’re trying to speak about the deacon who is the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion, not the priest. His hands are not consecrated nor have they ever been. Deacons have been the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion since the time of Stephen. We have had hundreds of thousands of deacons in all 22 Catholic Churches and 21 Orthodox Churches. They have always been the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. They do not have consecrated hands, because consecrated hands are not required to touch the consecrated host.

Consecrated hands are required of the Minister of the Eucharist, the peson who blesses the bread and wine, confectin the Eucharist. That’s why the ritual calls forth a consecration on the hands and explicitly uses the words “to bless” when the hands are consecrated, because this is the faith of the Church.

Do you see the difference here?

This is why it is untrue to say that one must have consecrated hands to touch the Eucharist. This has never been the case. Even in the Roman Church, the deacons have alwasys distributed the Eucharist. When we had permanent deacons this was the case. Then we no longer had permanent deacons, but only transitional deacons. These transitional deacons also distributed Holy Communion. Now we have both, permanent and transitional deacons and they are equally deacons.

Besides the deacons we always had abbots, abbesses, guardians, acolytes, friars and monks who distributed Holy Communion, since the fourth century. These never went away, as did the permanent deacons. Though the pemanent deacons only went away in the Roman Church, not in the other 21 Catholic Churches. Now they’re back.

It was precisely because we did not have enough permanent deacons that abbots, abbesses, friars, monks and acolytes distributed Holy Communion. Today this is less common, because we have permanent secular deacons to do this and they are the Ordinary Minsiters of Holy Communion.

The priest distributes Holy Communion, because as I said, he never ceases to be a deacon, just a bishop never ceases to be a presbyter. The order are pemanent. One does not eliminate or absorb the other.

John Paul II is speaking of the priest as minister of the Eucharist, not as minister of Holy Communion. They are two different ministries, belonging to two different orders within the one sacrament of Holy Orders. Yes, unconsecrated hands have always touched the consecrated hosts and can touch it, some as extraordinary ministers and others as Ordinary Minsiters (ie. deacons).

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Your premise is INcorrect. JPII is very clear about why the Priests’ hands are consecrated. The Chalice has always been the domain of the Deacon. While addressing the innovations, the Pope also clearly says it isw a privelege of the ordained or those destined to be.

You are free to sew confusion, but. The Pope’s words arew clear enough to those who have eyes to see.

That aside, how are yoy. Its been a while.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

The key word here is “considered”. Acolytes were incorrectly considered part of the clergy. The truth is that they were not part of the clergy, since they were not ordained. That’s why Canon Law of 1983 tried to correct this “consideration” by changing the language from the order of acolytes to the ministry of acolyte.

They were not merely considered part of the clergy but were and are a part of the clergy, that is, those who have been rightly ordained, for the ministry of acolyte, as decreed under Paul VI, is not equivalent to the clerical order.

If truth be told, most acolytes never became priests. Every monk and every friars is an acolyte. This is a tradition that dates back to St. Benedict. But most monks and friars are not clerics. Only about 20% are clerics. If you told Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Cistercians, Trappists, or Camaldolese that they were orders of clerics they would ask the king to behead you.

This was not the case before the council. Anyone who received the clerical (not religious) tonsure or any of the minor orders was expected to be ordained priest, even though the 1917 code specifically states that a superior cannot compel his subordinate to receive higher orders, even if he has received the clerical tonsure, except for a grave necessity of the diocese for priests. Anyone who received the clerical tonsure was not only a cleric by law but also by the very nature of the ceremony, which is perpetuated today by the FSSP, ICR, and others permitted to use the traditional pontificale. The very name of the ceremony is “the making of clerics.” Perhaps your concept has to do with the ministry of acolyte rather than the order.

This is a a complete dismissal of their consecrated life as monks and mendicant friars. Yet all of us are perment acolytes and lectors. This is part of the ministry of a monk and a friar.

This and the following statements have to do with the ministries, which are separate from the minor orders. It was not the same case before the Paul VI suppressed the minor orders.

 

[salen]

Well,this really helps me a lot! Thank you very much to share such a useful information!
If u dont mind,here u can have a good look,maybe it can give u a fantastic challenge.
Want to live a life on the cloud,just come here!