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Marie5890
Guest
I have never heard of the rumor that “millions are leaving the church”…
I’ve have heard thousands each year, however.
Where did you hear that millions were???
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I’ve have heard thousands each year, however.
Where did you hear that millions were???
J
Jerusha
Guest
LOL!! I missed that one. For a church as small as the LDS, that would be a quick demise.I have never heard of the rumor that “millions are leaving the church”…
I’ve have heard thousands each year, however.
Where did you hear that millions were???
M
Marie5890
Guest
And that even speaking at what is claimed as 15 millions members now, but certainly we all know that there are no where near that as far as active, faithful member.LOL!! I missed that one. For a church as small as the LDS, that would be a quick demise.
That would be like saying that the billion plus Catholic are all active and faithful as well. We all know that isn’t true, either.
Do Mormons believe that there are 15 million active Mormons?
J
Jerusha
Guest
If their church says that, it must be true.Do Mormons believe that there are 15 million active Mormons?
They count people who haven’t seen the inside of a LDS chapel for fifty years, who have resigned from the church, and untraceables until they are 110, as well as people who were baptized and left immediately after. They will grab any opportunity possible to inflate their numbers. Real life estimates are around five million.
People have asked me if I was Mormon or had Mormon family members, and I would resoundingly say “No!” My mother was too embarrassed to tell me.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
You have no way of knowing that.The women remained with their husbands to whom they were married for life. There was no sharing of the wife.
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Stephen168
New member
Catholics spend a great deal of time learning their history and beliefs, which is why we can refute Boettner.I wonder how many Catholics spend their time with Boettner or would recommend it to anyone?
Yet, you can’t refute anything on the OPs list.I remember point by point refuting the “Boettner list” long ago during my early Internet forays.
I don’t think you really believe that because on thread after thread you made no attempt.Knowing much more than Chris shared about the information, I know that there is much to see here. When it is all done, I think the truth claims of the CoJCoLDS weather the storm quite handily.
Yes, that is a you offer in any attempt to defend Mormonism. You only defense is a very poor offense.I am quite prone to the quid pro quo logical fallacy when folks attack my church with ill-conceived arrows.
Yet, you are unable to defend you position. You are unable to explain away any of the OPs facts.You asked if Mormon’s knew what you presented. I do. I do not believe your presentation is fair. I do not believe all things you think are facts are facts. But, I do have a knowledge of the historical documents that lead critics to say what you say.
Yes, that is exactly what I believe. Your track record for supporting your assertions is extremely poor.You may believe I cannot refute the assertions you make.
Yes, you do…move along and never defend Mormonism. I do believe that task would be impossible, so I understand.[One of my standard tu quoque fallacy responses when questioned by Catholics is to point out that Catholics believe sexually depraved men can validly hold the papacy so let’s move on to other topics.
[/QUOTE]
Stephen168
New member
I believe power is the reason. It was done by many religious cult leaders.Just because a guy likes to sleep around doesn’t make him a “sex maniac” it could just as easily be viewed as a power issue. Taking another man’s wife emasculates the husband and solidifies the power and control of the new husband, it shows the group who’s in charge, like with Saul. You see it all the time in nature, JS could have just been in touch with his primordial or natural man. Not having sex with the “stolen” wife would just underscore the power he has, “I took what you cherish and want, made it mine, even though I think nothing of it”
J
Jerusha
Guest
That ability to use Latin words to identify fallacies used in debate does not make that person a better debater. I would rather substantiate my arguments with facts than snow the opposing team with big words.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
This is simply untrue. The vast majority of LDS have no idea about the issues I’ve brought up in this thread. What they have been taught all their lives is a romanticized, sanitized version of Joseph Smith. They are not taught these things in Sunday school, seminary, Institute, missionary training, or in any other CES environment. When LDS historians/BYU professors learn this information on their own and attempt to teach it, they often lose their jobs and/or are disfellowhipped or excommunicated. Their stories are all over the internet.I’m a Mormon. I’m pretty sure most Mormons are aware of Joseph’s history.
Maybe you personally have not witnessed the high numbers who are leaving, but your church leadership has. Here is what General Authority and church historian Marlin K. Jensen recently said:The information continues to be uncovered and the church still grows. The rumors that millions are leaving the church are simply unfounded. You could claim that church leaders are providing false information in order to keep those who haven’t left from leaving, but in my travels, I have not seen any evidence of the mass exodus that others claim is taking place.
reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131
Joseph was accused by multiple women in at least four states of sexual misconduct. These are women he wasn’t married to. Have you ever heard of somebody being accused that much by that many different women that didn’t actually do it? Here is a good article on the subject by a CES instructor who taught for 30 years:Just to be clear, adultery is having sex with someone else’s spouse or with someone who is not your spouse when you are married. That’s not exactly the way the dictionary spells it out, but I believe a single person who has sex with a married person is also committing of adultery. There is no credible evidence that Joseph ever had sex with any of the wives who had husbands when he married them. He had no sexual relations with any of the women he married until after he was married to them. Therefore, there was no adultery or history of it. But you throw out your statement that Joseph was an adulterer as though it was a fact when it is not. He was a polygamist which is not the same thing.
mormonthink.com/grant6.htm
Joseph Smith was a polygamist*** and*** an adulterer.
Stephen168
New member
No it does not make them a better debater. An argument can be presented briefly in a syllogism, but Mormons can use 400 words and never address any point in a rational manner. That is the attempt at a snow job.That ability to use Latin words to identify fallacies used in debate does not make that person a better debater. I would rather substantiate my arguments with facts than snow the opposing team with big words.
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Chris-WA
Guest
I don’t know what apologist website/material you’re getting this from, but that is just plain incorrect. The jury is not out on the papyri. Ancient Egyptian writing was cracked a long time ago. They found the scrolls, they’ve been translated by scientists who know what they’re doing, and they have nothing to do with Abraham. It’s that simple. If you can’t see the most basic facts, then having an intelligent conversation is going to be very difficult.If you mean “expert” as in having a perfect knowledge and being completely conversant in Egyptian, then there is no such thing. There are only a handful of experts that claim the documents are not correct, and many of those have been outright proven that they aren’t as expert as they thought. The jury is still out on the papyri.
If you just do a little research, you can find out easily the opposite views to what you just said by equally qualified experts in Egyptology.
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TOmNossor
Guest
I will try to offer some thoughts. I think it unfortunate that you can suggest that my conviction that the CoJCoLDS is God’s church it “beyond your limited understanding.” I have written so much on this board. I once truly could not understand how anyone who ever had a spiritual testimony approaching the weak one I have would not pursue the truth as opposed to the one-sided stuff offered by Catholic here about my church, and then KNOW for themselves intellectually (as well as spirituall). But I choose to believe folks who claim to have some semblance of a spiritual testimony (usually claim to have ones far more powerful than mine) are at least honest.So you know these things. It is beyond my limited understanding as to why you choose to stay LDS. You have your reasons.
cont …
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TOmNossor
Guest
I am a LDS because I think the BOM is best explained by sourcing from God. I have NEVER felt the argument that the BOM did not evidence facts only available via supernatural means worked. The Atheist explanations offered are weak, contradict the fact, and in many cases contradict one to another. There is TOO much there.
Here is a thread which I can ALMOST say results in my it is “beyond my limited understanding” how these ex-Mormons can believe the evidence I share is not only not compelling, but is worthless. I am either blind or stupid or something is afoot.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=858856&page=4
So, with the need to explain the BOM, I approach other questions.
Was Joseph Smith seeking sex? I do not think so as I detailed above. Someone suggested that the papacy being held by sexually depraved men if fine because they didn’t institutionalize the sexual depravity. Well, this person should read their Bible as it says that God gave additional wife(s) to those who already had one wife. Polygamy was institutionalized in some Biblical times. Maybe SteveVH believes Catholicism ENDED Judaism and all before is GONE, but this is not a Catholic belief.
Was Joseph Smith seeking power? Someone brought this up. I think this is also contra-indicated by the historical record. A man who convinces others that the BOM came to him from God and the God talked to him and … does not act like Joseph Smith IF he is a fraud seeking power. Joseph Smith cheered when what he considered to be his burden was shifted in part to others. He delivered revelations shifting what previously seemed to be his power to others. He also spent way too much time and intellectual capital on creating a fraud he chose to die for that lasted much longer than he did.
The life of Joseph Smith IMO is a strong point for the church. While his perfection or even good character are not required for the church to be true, I think the evidence points to them.
What of BOM horses, metal, geography, DNA, … Quite simply the explanations for these combined with volumes of positive evidence leave the BOM on such strong footing that it can support other problems.
The BOA … that IMO is a problem the BOM supports. By itself, unlikely explanation for the BOA such as “two papyrus theory,” “partially symbolic representations and true translation theory,” and “purely a catalysis theory” provide SOME amelioration for the BOA problem. Combined with BOA evidences there is additional amelioration. But my personal weighing of these issues suggests that without other postives, the BOA by itself is evidence against the church.
Racism. Not a positive for the church, but a negative that is corrected. And a negative that existed in the Old Testament and in numerous instantiations of post Old Testament Christian churches.
Someone brought up, “by their fruits.”
I have little doubt that the Catholic Church is a very charitable organization. The best of Catholicism will lift all adherents. There are statistics and my personal observation however is that the CoJCoLDS excels the Catholic Church at producing moral committed Christians as measured by any indicators both churches would agree upon. While Catholics surely provide more charitable donations and services than LDS, per capita this is not the case. We can surely debate the merits of service in the church, but my observation is that if this would be excluded, the average LDS would compare favorably to the average Catholic.
As for my weighing of the Catholic evidence, I have commented on many things here. I do not have trouble pointing to the apostasy of authority in Catholic history. I find the arguments by SSPX and “Catholic” Sedavacantists stronger than arguments by either Catholic Answers or the liberal “Catholics.” I merely believe the council that was not protected by infallibility was Nicea and the Pope who was not Pope occurred long before Paul VI. All that being said, I am not in the place where I cannot see how folks can be Catholic. I believe Father Francis Sullivan is a Catholic (not a “Catholic.”).
One thing that I think is clear is that Catholics on this board or on Jimmy Akin’s blog spend a lot of time saying there are no problems. While it is not “beyond my limited understanding” how Catholics can navigate the problems and be Catholic, it is “beyond my limited understanding” how they can claim there are no vexing issues. Occasionally someone like Newman will acknowledge that Dollinger’s problem was not poor history, poor intellect, or poor understanding of the facts; but was a “failure in faith.” May none of us Catholic or LDS follow Dollinger’s path. Newman is to be preferred IMO even if his “theory of development” does not work in the end by my understanding.
Charity, TOm
Here is a thread which I can ALMOST say results in my it is “beyond my limited understanding” how these ex-Mormons can believe the evidence I share is not only not compelling, but is worthless. I am either blind or stupid or something is afoot.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=858856&page=4
So, with the need to explain the BOM, I approach other questions.
Was Joseph Smith seeking sex? I do not think so as I detailed above. Someone suggested that the papacy being held by sexually depraved men if fine because they didn’t institutionalize the sexual depravity. Well, this person should read their Bible as it says that God gave additional wife(s) to those who already had one wife. Polygamy was institutionalized in some Biblical times. Maybe SteveVH believes Catholicism ENDED Judaism and all before is GONE, but this is not a Catholic belief.
Was Joseph Smith seeking power? Someone brought this up. I think this is also contra-indicated by the historical record. A man who convinces others that the BOM came to him from God and the God talked to him and … does not act like Joseph Smith IF he is a fraud seeking power. Joseph Smith cheered when what he considered to be his burden was shifted in part to others. He delivered revelations shifting what previously seemed to be his power to others. He also spent way too much time and intellectual capital on creating a fraud he chose to die for that lasted much longer than he did.
The life of Joseph Smith IMO is a strong point for the church. While his perfection or even good character are not required for the church to be true, I think the evidence points to them.
What of BOM horses, metal, geography, DNA, … Quite simply the explanations for these combined with volumes of positive evidence leave the BOM on such strong footing that it can support other problems.
The BOA … that IMO is a problem the BOM supports. By itself, unlikely explanation for the BOA such as “two papyrus theory,” “partially symbolic representations and true translation theory,” and “purely a catalysis theory” provide SOME amelioration for the BOA problem. Combined with BOA evidences there is additional amelioration. But my personal weighing of these issues suggests that without other postives, the BOA by itself is evidence against the church.
Racism. Not a positive for the church, but a negative that is corrected. And a negative that existed in the Old Testament and in numerous instantiations of post Old Testament Christian churches.
Someone brought up, “by their fruits.”
I have little doubt that the Catholic Church is a very charitable organization. The best of Catholicism will lift all adherents. There are statistics and my personal observation however is that the CoJCoLDS excels the Catholic Church at producing moral committed Christians as measured by any indicators both churches would agree upon. While Catholics surely provide more charitable donations and services than LDS, per capita this is not the case. We can surely debate the merits of service in the church, but my observation is that if this would be excluded, the average LDS would compare favorably to the average Catholic.
As for my weighing of the Catholic evidence, I have commented on many things here. I do not have trouble pointing to the apostasy of authority in Catholic history. I find the arguments by SSPX and “Catholic” Sedavacantists stronger than arguments by either Catholic Answers or the liberal “Catholics.” I merely believe the council that was not protected by infallibility was Nicea and the Pope who was not Pope occurred long before Paul VI. All that being said, I am not in the place where I cannot see how folks can be Catholic. I believe Father Francis Sullivan is a Catholic (not a “Catholic.”).
One thing that I think is clear is that Catholics on this board or on Jimmy Akin’s blog spend a lot of time saying there are no problems. While it is not “beyond my limited understanding” how Catholics can navigate the problems and be Catholic, it is “beyond my limited understanding” how they can claim there are no vexing issues. Occasionally someone like Newman will acknowledge that Dollinger’s problem was not poor history, poor intellect, or poor understanding of the facts; but was a “failure in faith.” May none of us Catholic or LDS follow Dollinger’s path. Newman is to be preferred IMO even if his “theory of development” does not work in the end by my understanding.
Charity, TOm
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BrotherofJared
Guest
Google it. It’s not hard to find. Google isn’t facts but it sure can turn up a rumor mill.I have never heard of the rumor that “millions are leaving the church”…
I’ve have heard thousands each year, however.
Where did you hear that millions were???
B
BrotherofJared
Guest
Forgive me. I didn’t know you were an expert. In archaeology, in Egyptology, I have witnessed too many changes in what we new was absolute fact before is not longer fact. I don’t trust science of history. You are relying on the same people who insist that we came from apes. That we all came from (not Adam and Eve but from) a monkey named Lucy in Africa.I don’t know what apologist website/material you’re getting this from, but that is just plain incorrect. The jury is not out on the papyri. Ancient Egyptian writing was cracked a long time ago. They found the scrolls, they’ve been translated by scientists who know what they’re doing, and they have nothing to do with Abraham. It’s that simple. If you can’t see the most basic facts, then having an intelligent conversation is going to be very difficult.
Science, especially historical science, is the art of methodical guess work based on limited information. Egyptian was decoded from a fragment of a rock that had 2 languages and with one of the languages being written in two methods. That’s not exactly an encyclopedia or a dictionary. It is limited information from which we extrapolate the remaining information. At best, it is still guess work, albeit educated guess work.
What it comes down to is, you believe what you want to believe and I’ll believe what I want to believe. I don’t have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is you telling me what to believe when your facts are no better than mine. Even if your facts were concrete and absolute it’s not going to change a thing. Even if Joseph didn’t get the information for the Book of Abraham from those papyri, I find that book to be a pearl of great price indeed.
What you and most critics seem to forget with all your secular proof is that Mormons believe that Joseph Smith talked to God the Father and God the Son and received direction from them. You can’t beat that.
M
Marie5890
Guest
It got one hit, and that was in the form of a question. Hardly a rumor.Google it. It’s not hard to find. Google isn’t facts but it sure can turn up a rumor mill.
I have never seen any former Mormon or anyone else claim that millions are leaving
B
BrotherofJared
Guest
I believe that high profile people get a lot of unwanted attention whether it’s true or not. All of the documented witnesses to his plural marriages and his wives (including Emma) suggests a man very different from one who could even have an opportunity to take such sexual liberties. Just looking at his accomplishments, one would wonder when he had the time to seduce women who he wasn’t married to when he had plenty of women who he was married to that he didn’t have to seduce.Joseph was accused by multiple women in at least four states of sexual misconduct. These are women he wasn’t married to. Have you ever heard of somebody being accused that much by that many different women that didn’t actually do it? Here is a good article on the subject by a CES instructor who taught for 30 years:
[/INDENT]Joseph Smith was a polygamist*** and*** an adulterer.
And what does the “four states” multiple women comment mean? That could mean 2 women in 4 states. It sounds quoted (without reference) and is entirely misleading. That Joseph was a polygamist is not in question. Mormons are fine with that. I’m fine with that. You have no proof that he was an adulterer, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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BrotherofJared
Guest
Well, I’m glad that you are one who doesn’t believe that millions are leaving the Mormon faith. I’m also glad that you don’t know anyone who believes that or thinks that. I don’t believe it myself.It got one hit, and that was in the form of a question. Hardly a rumor.
I have never seen any former Mormon or anyone else claim that millions are leaving
My statement about millions leaving the Mormon faith was an intentional exaggeration aligned with Mormons leaving in “droves” or large numbers as in often depicted and is directly noted in the OP’s response to my comment in the link he provided.
My General Conference reports comment about the number of Stakes is a good indicator of active church membership. Stakes are not created if attendance is low. It takes a certain number of members to form a ward and a certain number of members to form a stake. Temples on the other hand are not a good indicator. Those numbers depend on the number of people actually going to the temple to do work there. Temples have attendance six days a week as apposed to church building which only have meetings on Sundays (not including auxiliary meetings).
I know people are leaving the church. I know that some who left should have been the stalwart foundation of the church, Bishops, Area Authorities, scholars, etc. But the devil is a cunning adversary and it states in the Bible that even the very elect might be deceived. (Matt 24:24).
No amount of secular evidence can prove the church is true. It seems that the opposite should also be true, but secular evidence seems to still be a stumbling block for many people. Some of these stalwart individuals who left the church have not associated with any other church. They struggle with a doctrine or a discovery which leads them to believe that the church has deceived them, but cannot find any church which teaches the “other” doctrines they hold to me true, such as God the Father and God the Son being separate individuals. Such as a pre-existence where we lived with God as spirit children just as Adam and Eve did. Such as families continuing beyond the grave. Where else can they find these truths? They can’t. Did the church deceive them? or did they just not know?
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BrotherofJared
Guest
No. We don’t believe that.And that even speaking at what is claimed as 15 millions members now, but certainly we all know that there are no where near that as far as active, faithful member.
That would be like saying that the billion plus Catholic are all active and faithful as well. We all know that isn’t true, either.
Do Mormons believe that there are 15 million active Mormons?
B
BrotherofJared
Guest
And you have no way of nothing otherwise. I have stated already that judging by the accomplishments of Joseph Smith, he had no time to be philandering about.You have no way of knowing that.
This article provides evidence that I find compelling concerning Joseph’s virtue.
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