For Mormons - How Much Do You Really Know About Joseph Smith?

[Stephen168]

I am a LDS because I think the BOM is best explained by sourcing from God. I have NEVER felt the argument that the BOM did not evidence facts only available via supernatural means worked. The Atheist explanations offered are weak, contradict the fact, and in many cases contradict one to another. There is TOO much there.
Here is a thread which I can ALMOST say results in my it is “beyond my limited understanding” how these ex-Mormons can believe the evidence I share is not only not compelling, but is worthless. I am either blind or stupid or something is afoot.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=858856&page=4

So, with the need to explain the BOM, I approach other questions.
Was Joseph Smith seeking sex? I do not think so as I detailed above. Someone suggested that the papacy being held by sexually depraved men if fine because they didn’t institutionalize the sexual depravity. Well, this person should read their Bible as it says that God gave additional wife(s) to those who already had one wife. Polygamy was institutionalized in some Biblical times. Maybe SteveVH believes Catholicism ENDED Judaism and all before is GONE, but this is not a Catholic belief.
Was Joseph Smith seeking power? Someone brought this up. I think this is also contra-indicated by the historical record. A man who convinces others that the BOM came to him from God and the God talked to him and … does not act like Joseph Smith IF he is a fraud seeking power. Joseph Smith cheered when what he considered to be his burden was shifted in part to others. He delivered revelations shifting what previously seemed to be his power to others. He also spent way too much time and intellectual capital on creating a fraud he chose to die for that lasted much longer than he did.
The life of Joseph Smith IMO is a strong point for the church. While his perfection or even good character are not required for the church to be true, I think the evidence points to them.
What of BOM horses, metal, geography, DNA, … Quite simply the explanations for these combined with volumes of positive evidence leave the BOM on such strong footing that it can support other problems.

The Mormon Church no longer believes the BOM is what Joseph Smith said it was and no non-Mormon believes the BOM is anything other than a 19th century work of fiction.

The BOA … that IMO is a problem the BOM supports. By itself, unlikely explanation for the BOA such as “two papyrus theory,” “partially symbolic representations and true translation theory,” and “purely a catalysis theory” provide SOME amelioration for the BOA problem. Combined with BOA evidences there is additional amelioration. But my personal weighing of these issues suggests that without other postives, the BOA by itself is evidence against the church.
Racism. Not a positive for the church, but a negative that is corrected. And a negative that existed in the Old Testament and in numerous instantiations of post Old Testament Christian churches.

The BOA is another example of Joseph Smith telling a lie due to the fact no non-Mormon believes it is what the Mormon Church says it is.

As for my weighing of the Catholic evidence, I have commented on many things here. I do not have trouble pointing to the apostasy of authority in Catholic history.

The authority of the Catholic Church has nothing to do with whether the Mormon Church is an invention of Joseph Smith or not. You have created a false dilemma. Joseph Smith’s claim he restored Christianity is clearly false by the historical evidence. He has made many false claims and invented practices and beliefs which have NEVER been held or taught by the ancient church; the Catholic Church.
You have also attempted to make claims against the Catholic Church and not one has held up under scrutiny.

 

[Stephen168]

I believe that high profile people get a lot of unwanted attention whether it’s true or not. All of the documented witnesses to his plural marriages and his wives (including Emma) suggests a man very different from one who could even have an opportunity to take such sexual liberties. Just looking at his accomplishments, one would wonder when he had the time to seduce women who he wasn’t married to when he had plenty of women who he was married to that he didn’t have to seduce.

And what does the “four states” multiple women comment mean? That could mean 2 women in 4 states. It sounds quoted (without reference) and is entirely misleading. That Joseph was a polygamist is not in question. Mormons are fine with that. I’m fine with that. You have no proof that he was an adulterer, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Joseph Smith claimed to restore Christianity. Polygamy was never a teaching of Christ or the Apostles. In fact celibacy was their practice

 

[BrotherofJared]

If you knew, for example, that Joseph had adulterous affairs and married at least 33 women, many of whom were teenagers as young as 14 or already married to other men, how would that affect your belief in his credibility as a prophet?

“…many of whom were as young as 14…” Clearly emotive and misleading. Two were 14. He did marry young women, but then so did thousands of other men at the time. At that date and time, it was common for women to marry at a young age. You are judging the past on present conditions and standards. If marrying a girl as young as 14 can appear reasonable for that time, then the older women would be of no consequence. He also married women as old as 58.

Eleven were married to other men when he was sealed to them for eternity only, meaning that the marriage did not start until after their death. Odd situation that was not repeated after Joseph died by any other church authorities that I know of, but the husbands did not object and the wives did not object (well, I think one husband did. not sure). There was no sharing of the wife.

I’ve already stated that you insinuate adulterous. But it was polygamy not adultery. They were married.

Eternity only marriages: as you know some women were married to him after his death. How was that suppose to work? Obviously he could have no conjugal association. The marriage was to commence after death. This concept was same when married those who had husbands. The ones sealed after death were free to marry if they weren’t already married. It is the same either way. You could claim he was an adulterer if he had sex with these married women, but otherwise, he was not.

Your claim that most Mormons didn’t know this information is true concerning the ages of the women. It is also true that most Mormons didn’t know some of those women were married. Big surprise, right? Yes, indeed it was. But does it make any difference? No. The women were of marrying age and the concept of eternity marriage only is strange, but not unacceptable. The concept of marriage after death is not foreign to Mormons.

There is no value in teaching these concepts in any church venue. That would be wading in the mire. It is better to teach the basics and where to find continuing truth. That is already a daunting task. I’d rather avoid the mire.

 

[BrotherofJared]

If you knew that he threatened some of these women if they refused his proposals, but promised salvation for their whole family if they accepted, would that change your mind about the man?

This point of view is take out of context by anti-Mormon literature. Careful apologist research shows that he neither threatened them nor made promises accept that they could know for themselves that what he taught was true. This is a fairly extensive review of many of those cases.

mormoninterpreter.com/a-response-to-grant-palmers-sexual-allegations-against-joseph-smith-and-the-beginnings-of-polygamy-in-nauvoo/

The church teaches (as did Joseph Smith) salvation can come only through one’s own actions and the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Article of Faith 2 and 3.

lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

 

[Pronger1]

"Eternity only marriages: as you know some women were married to him after his death. How was that suppose to work? Obviously he could have no conjugal association. The marriage was to commence after death. This concept was same when married those who had husbands. The ones sealed after death were free to marry if they weren’t already married. It is the same either way. You could claim he was an adulterer if he had sex with these married women, but otherwise, he was not…

How to Mormons justify their belief in "eternal only marriages’ or marriages after death? They are clearly unscriptural.

Mark 12:19-25 is Jesus’ response to the Sadducces.

“Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves behind a wife and leaves no child, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children. 21 The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the third likewise; 22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one’s wife will she be? For all seven had married her.” 24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

1 Corinthians 7:39

A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2-3

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

 

[Pronger1]

"
I’ve already stated that you insinuate adulterous. But it was polygamy not adultery. They were married.

.

Polygamy isn’t supported by God. It is adultery. If God intended polygamy, he would have created Adam & Eve & Jane & Cindy &… etc… etc. It would have been a quicker way to populate the earth.

But there are NUMEROUS scriptures defining marriage as one man and one woman.

 

[Stephen168]

The women were of marrying age and the concept of eternity marriage only is strange, but not unacceptable. The concept of marriage after death is not foreign to Mormons.

It is foreign to Christians, so this is another invention of Joseph Smith not a restoration of Christianity.

 

[Chris-WA]

Forgive me. I didn’t know you were an expert. In archaeology, in Egyptology, I have witnessed too many changes in what we new was absolute fact before is not longer fact. I don’t trust science of history. You are relying on the same people who insist that we came from apes. That we all came from (not Adam and Eve but from) a monkey named Lucy in Africa.

No, I freely admit I am not an expert, nor have I ever claimed to be. But to claim that somehow Egyptologists got it wrong when translating the Book of Abraham papyri is grossly ignorant. If LDS apologists are even making that claim, which I don’t think they are, then it’s clear they have in this case abandoned all sense of reason.

Science, especially historical science, is the art of methodical guess work based on limited information. Egyptian was decoded from a fragment of a rock that had 2 languages and with one of the languages being written in two methods. That’s not exactly an encyclopedia or a dictionary. It is limited information from which we extrapolate the remaining information. At best, it is still guess work, albeit educated guess work.

When you say things like this, I don’t know whether to take you seriously or what, because it’s so ridiculous. It’s not my* belief* that Egyptologists can read Egyptian, it’s scientific fact. If you can’t acknowledge that, then you are simply not living in reality. This is a tactic some LDS apologists will use to muddy the waters, create doubt, and deflect any ideas that could put Joseph’s credibility into question. I’ve heard the argument from LDS that the scrolls Egyptologists translated were not the same ones Joseph used to write the Book of Abraham, but I’ve never heard one say the Egyptologists mistranslated them. I don’t even know what to say to that. It defies all reason.

What it comes down to is, you believe what you want to believe and I’ll believe what I want to believe. I don’t have a problem with that.

It’s not about belief. It’s about scientific and historical facts, and where those facts logically lead.

What I have a problem with is you telling me what to believe when your facts are no better than mine.

You have given no facts to refute my points so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Even if your facts were concrete and absolute it’s not going to change a thing. Even if Joseph didn’t get the information for the Book of Abraham from those papyri, I find that book to be a pearl of great price indeed.

And there it is. Do you hear yourself? You just said that even if the facts contradict what you believe, you will ignore the facts. That is not a reasonable position to take, but a common one for many LDS who base truth more on feelings than facts. That is neither biblical or logical.

What you and most critics seem to forget with all your secular proof is that Mormons believe that Joseph Smith talked to God the Father and God the Son and received direction from them. You can’t beat that.

You know what? The fundamentalist Mormons in Southern Utah and Northern Arizona believed the exact same thing about Warren Jeffs.

 

[boomerang]

Whether or not Joseph Smith was an adulterer or a polygamist or cheated at cards or stomped on kittens or short-sheeted people’s beds is pretty much irrelevant to the fact that he invented the whole darned fairy tale known as the Church of Latter Day Saints, and plagiarized the BOM from other books like the KJ Bible, the Late War and scads of other books.

 

[kimg901]

So why do you Mormons think so low of Jesus? Do you really think He would lead His Church astray? This is what your so called prophet joe smith has done. And its not your fault but your leaders fault. God is not weak. Speaking of God. What kind of God would create 3 different heavens and separate loved ones according to the works they did on earth? Wouldn’t God want all His people to Himself? Its okay if you want to believe in another god. We believe the One True God is a merciful God and that we will all be united in Heaven when we die, regardless of religion.

 

[Marie5890]

classroom.synonym.com/age-marriage-us-1800s-23174.html

Snap shot look at the age of women marrying in the 19th century.

Considering that the age of on sent of menarche wasnt until late teens, this makes sense.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Joseph Smith claimed to restore Christianity. Polygamy was never a teaching of Christ or the Apostles. In fact celibacy was their practice

well. you and i will just have to disagree on the celibacy issue. Joseph wasn’t restoring Christianity. He was to restore all of God’s teachings which included polygamy. .i.e. Abraham and all of Israel practiced it.

 

[BrotherofJared]

classroom.synonym.com/age-marriage-us-1800s-23174.html

Snap shot look at the age of women marrying in the 19th century.

Considering that the age of on sent of menarche wasnt until late teens, this makes sense.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Stephen168]

well. you and i will just have to disagree on the celibacy issue.

As you have done earlier in the thread, you a disagreeing with a fact.

Joseph wasn’t restoring Christianity. He was to restore all of God’s teachings which included polygamy. .i.e. Abraham and all of Israel practiced it.

I agree Joseph Smith did not restore Christianity, but he claimed he did. So are you saying he lied and the teaching of the Mormon Church is wrong.

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks for proving my point.

I disagree that I proved your point.

 

[Chris-WA]

“…many of whom were as young as 14…” Clearly emotive and misleading. Two were 14. He did marry young women, but then so did thousands of other men at the time. At that date and time, it was common for women to marry at a young age. You are judging the past on present conditions and standards. If marrying a girl as young as 14 can appear reasonable for that time, then the older women would be of no consequence. He also married women as old as 58.

Your facts are incorrect. Here is the breakdown: from 1841 to 1843, Joseph got 33 women to accept his proposals (there were others brave enough to turn him down). Of those 33, eleven were single women 14-19 years of age, eleven were single women over 19 , and eleven were already married to other men. The average age for a first-time marriages for women at that time was 20-22, and extremely uncommon for 14 year olds to get married! So it cannot appear ‘reasonable’ as you say. Whoever wrote that nonsense is really trying hard to keep Joseph from looking bad.

Eleven were married to other men when he was sealed to them for eternity only, meaning that the marriage did not start until after their death. Odd situation that was not repeated after Joseph died by any other church authorities that I know of, but the husbands did not object and the wives did not object (well, I think one husband did. not sure). There was no sharing of the wife.

Again your information is not correct. There are many testimonies given by these women and their families that these marriages were not just for the afterlife, but were lived and consummated just like any other marriage. There are numerous testimonies that Joseph shared beds with at least some of these women.

I’ve already stated that you insinuate adulterous. But it was polygamy not adultery. They were married.

You did not understand my first post or my second on this matter. Besides the 33 marriages, there were other women Joseph either bedded or attempted to bed, and it started long before he began taking plural wives. But don’t take it from me–take it from Emma. In an 1847 interview with former LDS Apostle William McLellin, she admitted that Joseph practiced both polygamy and adultery.

Eternity only marriages: as you know some women were married to him after his death. How was that suppose to work? Obviously he could have no conjugal association. The marriage was to commence after death. This concept was same when married those who had husbands. The ones sealed after death were free to marry if they weren’t already married. It is the same either way. You could claim he was an adulterer if he had sex with these married women, but otherwise, he was not.

The question you should be asking yourself is what the heck is Joseph doing marrying women who were already married? It is bad no matter how you look at it.

Your claim that most Mormons didn’t know this information is true concerning the ages of the women. It is also true that most Mormons didn’t know some of those women were married. Big surprise, right? Yes, indeed it was. But does it make any difference? No. The women were of marrying age and the concept of eternity marriage only is strange, but not unacceptable. The concept of marriage after death is not foreign to Mormons.

Tell you what, at your next Sunday school class start a discussion about how Joseph married 14 year-olds and married women. See how that goes.

There is no value in teaching these concepts in any church venue. That would be wading in the mire. It is better to teach the basics and where to find continuing truth. That is already a daunting task. I’d rather avoid the mire.

There are many LDS who would strongly disagree with you. Many who find out this information, which is the truth, are disgusted by it (as they should be). They for the first time learn the truth that Joseph Smith had some really serious character flaws. Apologists can try to spin this information all they want, but in our human nature we know at our core that this stuff is really messed up.

 

[kimg901]

well. you and i will just have to disagree on the celibacy issue. Joseph wasn’t restoring Christianity. He was to restore all of God’s teachings which included polygamy. .i.e. Abraham and all of Israel practiced it.

Please cite references that Abram and Israel practiced polygamy or anything else that needed restoring. Its all about what smith wanted, not God.

 

[BrotherofJared]

So why do you Mormons think so low of Jesus? Do you really think He would lead His Church astray? This is what your so called prophet joe smith has done. And its not your fault but your leaders fault. God is not weak. Speaking of God. What kind of God would create 3 different heavens and separate loved ones according to the works they did on earth? Wouldn’t God want all His people to Himself? Its okay if you want to believe in another god. We believe the One True God is a merciful God and that we will all be united in Heaven when we die, regardless of religion.

That’s a new Roman Catholic belief, one I’ve never heard of. As far as I know, the Catholics have been notorious for separating families because a person wasn’t baptized. You may believe what you said, but your church doesn’t teach it. But I guess that really depends one who is included in “all His people.” Perhaps the non-baptized are not his people?

There’s so much I could say about this, but I’ve already started down a bad path. I am not here to put down another religion. I only wish to defend mine. Mormons believe Jesus to be the way, the truth and the life. He is our Savior and without him, no one can be saved. Was Jesus low when he talked to prophets of old? To Isaiah and Daniel and Moses? Was he low when He made himself flesh and organized his gospel among men? Then why would He be low to speak from the heavens again and give commandments and lead his people in a time when we really need him?

Speaking of God and heaven, Didn’t Jesus say that he was going to prepare mansions for his disciples? What kind of mansion would he prepare for you? Would it be the same as Peter’s or John’s or Paul’s? Let’s say that it was. Let’s say we’re all God’s children and will come into his heaven. Will we all have the same mansion? Will those that knew Christ and yet didn’t follow him have the same mansion as Peter or James or John or you? And how do you answer to the Bible’s teachings of three heavens or three glories?

The true church, the one lead by Jesus Christ, would know. Wouldn’t it?

 

[BrotherofJared]

Please cite references that Abram and Israel practiced polygamy or anything else that needed restoring. Its all about what smith wanted, not God.

Just read your Bible. I don’t need to cite references. But I’m sure someone can if it pleases them. I’m just surprised that you don’t know.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Your facts are incorrect. Here is the breakdown: from 1841 to 1843, Joseph got 33 women to accept his proposals (there were others brave enough to turn him down). Of those 33, eleven were single women 14-19 years of age, eleven were single women over 19 , and eleven were already married to other men. The average age for a first-time marriages for women at that time was 20-22, and extremely uncommon for 14 year olds to get married! So it cannot appear ‘reasonable’ as you say. Whoever wrote that nonsense is really trying hard to keep Joseph from looking bad.

No. My facts are correct. wivesofjosephsmith.org/
This document shows the age of consent was between 10 and 16. Again, I am not saying the average age. I’m saying it was not uncommon. It happens today. More often in other countries than in this one, but it is not unheard of. It wasn’t illegal when Joseph did it. I’d don’t see any issues. I might point out that the information is composed of US census reports. I have very little confidence in those reports.

Again your information is not correct. There are many testimonies given by these women and their families that these marriages were not just for the afterlife, but were lived and consummated just like any other marriage. There are numerous testimonies that Joseph shared beds with at least some of these women.

I have also posted links, for anyone who cares to read it, to show that all of these arguments are lame and without basis. He did have children with his other wives, but not very many. But he did not have any relations with the wives of other men.

You did not understand my first post or my second on this matter. Besides the 33 marriages, there were other women Joseph either bedded or attempted to bed, and it started long before he began taking plural wives. But don’t take it from me–take it from Emma. In an 1847 interview with former LDS Apostle William McLellin, she admitted that Joseph practiced both polygamy and adultery.

I understood your post, I disagreed with it. That is not the same is mis-understanding. That particular situation refer to is discussed in a link I posted. Mr McLellin was mistaken and it was not adultery. I stated that he didn’t have the opportunity to be the philanderer that you accuse him of being.

The question you should be asking yourself is what the heck is Joseph doing marrying women who were already married? It is bad no matter how you look at it.

I did ask that question. It does appear bad. But then I said to myself, I wonder what their husbands thought about it. After reading about several of them, I am satisfied that they were not upset and so, I’m not upset.

Tell you what, at your next Sunday school class start a discussion about how Joseph married 14 year-olds and married women. See how that goes.

There is no value in such discussions. The only reason we discuss them here is because you brought it up and I’m just saying that there was nothing wrong with it then and I have no problem following the teaching of Joseph Smith. I believe he was called of God and he did what he was commanded to do. I tell you what. Why don’t you bring up in your Sunday School class that Mary was only 13 when she became pregnant with our Savior Jesus Christ and see how that goes…

There are many LDS who would strongly disagree with you. Many who find out this information, which is the truth, are disgusted by it (as they should be). They for the first time learn the truth that Joseph Smith had some really serious character flaws. Apologists can try to spin this information all they want, but in our human nature we know at our core that this stuff is really messed up.

And there are a lot more LDS who would realize that this is a non-issue. Those who disagree weren’t around when Abraham bedded a second woman even though he was married to Sarah, but in our view of things, that’s disgusting. Abraham and Jacob are too far removed for us to squabble about them. Joseph Smith is much closer and for actions no different than theirs, we attack him. His message is still clear: The gospel of Jesus Christ is restored in it’s fullness for the last time before His second coming.

You do know that we still practice polygamy today, right? It cannot be avoided if there is any such thing as eternal marriage. With that you have the key to it’s purpose. It’s purpose is divine and instituted for the exaltation of man. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not right.