For Mormons - How Much Do You Really Know About Joseph Smith?

[BrotherofJared]

Jesus is Jehovah? Don’t Mormons believe Jesus and God are two separate beings? Or is the Mormon “Jehovah” different from the God of the OT?

Funny

 

[BrotherofJared]

Oh Boy, I see what you mean Steve.

BrotherofJared - Why don’t you go to an actual Catholic Church site or source to find out what the Catholic Church teaches, like the USCCB (I gave you a link) or the Vatican, rather than that junk site? …

Well, we are quoting a Pope and it is the Catholic religion I remember. If you don’t believe that stuff anymore then, it seems that you’re not different that the Protestant religions that left the Church years ago. Which would probably explain why you’re picking on Mormons with the same zeal as Protestants.

 

[Stephen168]

This might need some refining.

No, I would not want to refine the Apostle Peters requirements

Witness of the resurrected Lord would certainly qualify Joseph Smith, but witness might also mean testimony which one my give as witness though he never saw him or touched him.

No, it would not include Joseph Smith.

But the second part is even harder to resolve since by one actually being missing means they weren’t in the company of the twelve.

The were many Apostles who walked with the Twelve during the three year ministry of Jesus Christ. They were all eligible to be one of the Twelve. This also would not include Joseph Smith or any Mormon ‘Apostle.’

That would mean that after the original twelve were dead that there could be no more apostles and then no more church since it clearly states that in the church there are first apostles, second prophets, etc… of which, you have neither.

As defined by Peter, you don’t have Apostles either. And as defined by Joseph Smith they are not necessary to have a Church, he had a church for 5 years before inventing Mormon Apostles. Apostle it a title reserved for those who personally knew Christ and the Twelve. By the laying of hands from Bishop to Bishop the Catholic Church has the authority the Twelve had and passed on to them

 

[Stephen168]

Oh Boy, I see what you mean Steve.

BrotherofJared - Why don’t you go to an actual Catholic Church site or source to find out what the Catholic Church teaches, like the USCCB (I gave you a link) or the Vatican, rather than that junk site? …

Whatever comes from that site is NOT Church teaching.

I think we’ve found the source of your confusion…

”The Jesus is Savior website is essentially the same as the Internet Church for Christ if it were created by a furious schizophrenic. There are so many fonts, photos and hate-filled, incongruous pieces of information on the homepage that at a certain point the human eye just gives up and stares into the vast expanse of the background. The only unifying theme of the site seems to be contempt and a psychotic distrust of literally everything.
—Soren Bowie, Cracked

Jesus-is-savior.com is a nutty Jack Chick-style (probably nuttier, if you can imagine such a thing[2]) fundamentalist Christian website run by Guam resident, FSTDT favourite and Gilligan lookalike David J. Stewart, who according to his bio is a fundie from a long line of fundies. Stewart himself is a supporter of Jack Hyles, and graduate of the Hyles-Anderson College[3].

His website promotes extremist fundie ideologies and conspiracy theories such as King James-onlyism, Anti-Catholicism, anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, and the evils of rock and pop music artists like Boston, Michael Jackson, the Backstreet Boys, and even Christian rock[4] and country music[5], among other ideas. “Oprah is the Most Dangerous Woman in the World!” because she is a New Ager.[6] The most dangerous soul-destroying television show ever is apparently Hee Haw.[7]

source - rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus_Is_Savior

Why is the website Jesus-is-savior.com allowed? 
✓Follow publicly✓Follow privatelyUnfollow
It's the most hateful and anti-Catholic garbage I've ever seen. Seriously, looking at it is like a dream because it's impossible to think that non-Christians like that guy.

Source - [answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722101318AA5ZxAX](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722101318AA5ZxAX)


Now it would take too long to list all the sources that find Jesus-is-savior to be anything but credible.

I just gave you the book from which the Catholic Church wants all folks to learn about this life we live.

Oh goodness.

Did that just happen?

The only thing wrong with the source of his information is it doesn’t understand Catholic meaning or context; and because it is anti- Catholic like Mormonism, it doesn’t care to understand Catholic meaning. Context is everything.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Oh Boy, I see what you mean Steve.

BrotherofJared - Why don’t you go to an actual Catholic Church site or source to find out what the Catholic Church teaches, like the USCCB (I gave you a link) or the Vatican, rather than that junk site? …

Whatever comes from that site is NOT Church teaching.

I think we’ve found the source of your confusion…

”The Jesus is Savior website is essentially the same as the Internet Church for Christ if it were created by a furious schizophrenic. There are so many fonts, photos and hate-filled, incongruous pieces of information on the homepage that at a certain point the human eye just gives up and stares into the vast expanse of the background. The only unifying theme of the site seems to be contempt and a psychotic distrust of literally everything.
—Soren Bowie, Cracked

Jesus-is-savior.com is a nutty Jack Chick-style (probably nuttier, if you can imagine such a thing[2]) fundamentalist Christian website run by Guam resident, FSTDT favourite and Gilligan lookalike David J. Stewart, who according to his bio is a fundie from a long line of fundies. Stewart himself is a supporter of Jack Hyles, and graduate of the Hyles-Anderson College[3].

His website promotes extremist fundie ideologies and conspiracy theories such as King James-onlyism, Anti-Catholicism, anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, and the evils of rock and pop music artists like Boston, Michael Jackson, the Backstreet Boys, and even Christian rock[4] and country music[5], among other ideas. “Oprah is the Most Dangerous Woman in the World!” because she is a New Ager.[6] The most dangerous soul-destroying television show ever is apparently Hee Haw.[7]

source - rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus_Is_Savior

Why is the website Jesus-is-savior.com allowed? 
✓Follow publicly✓Follow privatelyUnfollow
It's the most hateful and anti-Catholic garbage I've ever seen. Seriously, looking at it is like a dream because it's impossible to think that non-Christians like that guy.

Source - [answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722101318AA5ZxAX](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722101318AA5ZxAX)


Now it would take too long to list all the sources that find Jesus-is-savior to be anything but credible.

I just gave you the book from which the Catholic Church wants all folks to learn about this life we live.

Oh goodness.

Did that just happen?

And you provide equally useless links to refute the info. Amazing. But I tell you what, I’ll go see if the pages he actually quoted are correct. If they are, then; unless the Catholic church changed it’s doctrine, then either you or they are in the wrong place.

 

[boomerang]

Funny

So I take it you have no answer? Is Jesus the same as Jehovah? Who is Jehovah? Is he God the Father or not? I didn’t just pull this out of my imagination that Mormons have believed that God and Jesus are two separate beings, yet in the beginning, Joseph Smith said God and Jesus were the same being.

According to the LDS periodical “Times and Seasons” (Vol. 3 p.358, 11/15/1841) Joseph Smith said, “We believe in God the Father, who is the Great Jehovah and head of all things, and that Christ is the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father.”

So it seems that now the new doctrine is that “Jehovah” of the OT is actually Jesus, so “The Father” is now an entirely different person. So let’s see…there’s God, there’s Jehovah, and there’s Jesus. God is not Jehovah, but Jesus is. Another neat thing I found is it seems Michael is really Adam. Interesting. Jehovah’s Witnesses think Michael is Jesus. What a confusing mess! Is it any wonder no one can take Mormonism seriously? It’s too bad. I like Mormons and think they are nice people with a lot of good qualities. I even like and admire the social aspects of their church. But there’s no way on God’s green earth I could ever believe in it.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Now it appears you’re telling me that baptism may not be necessary. Next you’ll be telling me that you might not need to be Catholic to be saved (though that is what you just said). My understanding of the Catholic dogma is that only Catholic’s will be saved. If you’re not baptized, you’re not Catholic.

This has already been explained, but it seems as if you would rather hold onto your misconceptions about Catholic teaching, and not what actual Catholics are saying about our own beliefs. That’s ok.

Catholic teaching is that baptism is ordinarily necessary for salvation. We also believe that God may, in His infinite mercy, justice, and grace, save those who, through no fault of their own, did not have the opportunity to come to the Truth and be validly baptized.

**1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. (1129, 161, 846)

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. (848)

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. (1257, 1250)**

 

[Stephen168]

This might be nit picking, but; “lived” needs to be qualified there. Christ has always lived. He is Jehovah. But if you don’t know that, then I’m just talking to a wall because you can’t learn anything from me.

No Jesus is not Jehovah. This is a recent invention and not part Christianity.

God has no beginning, he created everything from nothing. The Apostle John tells us that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. And the Word was made flesh. As Christians we know the Trinity always was but the incarnation took place after the Old Testament was written. When we talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are talking about his revelation. The revelation he made in the flesh. His revelation did not include polygamy or any of the other inventions of Joseph Smith.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I can’t tell you by not being Christians meant that they didn’t have the good news of Jesus Christ, but they did. All that the Jews ever did was forward looking to the advent of Jesus Christ in the flesh, and they knew it. In fact, Jehovah, the god of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ. It seems shameful to exclude them.

Jews were (and are) Jews. They weren’t Christians. That is the point.

Who was in the Church Council? Apostles maybe? Where are the Apostles today? Maybe we don’t need them, eh?

Catholics believe that Bishops are the successors of the Apostles, and have their apostolic authority.

We believe that Apostles are Prophets.

LDS apostles seem not to function like Biblical prophets at all (indeed, this is something frequently discussed on LDS-related forums). You may call them prophets, but they don’t seem to be doing anything prophet-like, at least anything different from the non-prophet leaders of various other religions.

There seems to be a big push to write off prophets, some of you say that the New Testament is clear that there will be no prophets or that no prophet will lead the church and I don’t know that that is so important.

Catholics have had many people throughout our 2000 year history that could properly be termed “prophets”. As I already mentioned, our history is rich with Heavenly visions, visitations, miracles, etc.

Joseph Smith was both a prophet and an apostle. He was the senior apostle until his death, then Brigham Young was the senior apostle, though for several years after Joseph’s death, he didn’t assume the role as President of the church, he was still the head of it. Today, Thomas Monson is the senior apostle.

Invention? No. Restoration? Yes.

Joseph Smith is merely one in a long line of claimed “prophets” since Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church 2000 years ago. It really is nothing new. Mormonism has prophets that don’t prophesy or do anything that Biblical prophets did. They are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, yet they don’t do any of that. Catholics don’t need to look to Mormonism for a restoration because nothing was ever lost. The Truth has always been here, in Jesus Christ’s Church. Heaven was never closed, and our Church has the authority and inspired guidance from God that the New Testament Church did, since we are that Church. No restoration was ever needed.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

My questions have still not been answered. I am frustrated with our Mormon friends here. Why are you dodging? You keep going back to minor details and missing the big, glaring holes in your theology. Please, I am very confused. If you have an answer, please address these issues. If not, I will assume my take on your beliefs, which is very unflattering, is essentially correct.

Here is a review of unanswered questions:

1. What about the bible stating, quite clearly, that there will be no new prophets? How could Mormons claim modern day prophets in direct contradiction to this statement? In addition, we are warned about people claiming to be new prophets. How could that not be a warning against Mormon ideology?
2. As far as baptism of the dead, why do you think you must do God’s work? What gives you the idea that you can do God’s work? Do you not trust in His grace? I went out, once, with a Mormon kid in college. He and I argued because he insisted that George Washington (an Episcopalian, who lived and died before the Mormon religion even existed) was Mormon due to baptism of the dead. I find this teaching not only repugnant, but ignorant of free will. I don’t believe that it has any effect, but to the descendants of millions of people supposedly baptized and called Mormon, it’s very disrespectful. I refrain from using Ancestry. com because I do not want my relatives’ names added on any Mormon lists. If I found out their names were on Mormon lists, I would sue the Mormon church.

Has your church removed the Holocaust victims from it’s lists? I believe Jewish leaders insisted on it. I do hope the names of Catholics murdered, such as the priests who died for their faith, were also removed. How can you not see that as disrespectful?

1. I have heard from many Mormons who spoke of being separate from non-Mormons in their family. They were told they wouldn’t see their own children unless they became Mormon. To claim something that is not in the Bible or the traditions of the church sounds like manipulation, rather than truth.
2. Please also speak to the fact that Joseph Smith was a Mason and incorporated much of what he gleamed from Masonic rituals into the Mormon church.

This thread is about Mormons and their leader, Joseph Smith. Your attacks on the Catholic Church are not helping us understand your beliefs. This is your chance to clear up any misunderstandings.

 

[Stephen168]

So I take it you have no answer? Is Jesus the same as Jehovah? Who is Jehovah? Is he God the Father or not? I didn’t just pull this out of my imagination that Mormons have believed that God and Jesus are two separate beings, yet in the beginning, Joseph Smith said God and Jesus were the same being.

Mormonism started as a Trinitarian religion but in 1844 Joseph Smith led his people into apostasy with his rejection of the trinity and teaching that God was once a man like us.

 

[BrotherofJared]

And you provide equally useless links to refute the info. Amazing. But I tell you what, I’ll go see if the pages he actually quoted are correct. If they are, then; unless the Catholic church changed it’s doctrine, then either you or they are in the wrong place.

Oh boy, I get to quote myself.

I hope this link will provide support for the previous disreputable site. The question is, is it infallible. The response in that post is most confusing:

The Church has always taught that no soul is lost except by its own fault, its rejection of truth and charity. Simply adhering to another religion does not necessarily mean such rejection. - Dr. Carroll

If this latter part is true, then why belong to the Catholic church and why harp on Mormons for their beliefs? Charity shouldn’t be an issue. Truth? Now that’s a big one. Who knows truth? Is it true that if you’re not baptized you won’t get into heaven? Is it truth that God has no body parts or passions and that He is everywhere, yet nowhere? And if we don’t believe those then we shut ourselves out of heaven? If you don’t need any saving performances, then why get baptized at all?

 

[Stephen168]

This thread is about Mormons and their leader, Joseph Smith. Your attacks on the Catholic Church are not helping us understand your beliefs. This is your chance to clear up any misunderstandings.

For some Mormon visitors here attacking the Catholic Church is a way to defend the Mormon Church. It is completely irrational but that is what they do. Those few will always avoid the hard questions.

 

[LivingWaters7]

By ancient documents, do you also mean the Old Testament?

I quite clearly stated “ancient Christian documents”. The Old Testament is not a Christian document, though it is included in the Christian scriptures, and revered as the word of God by Christians.

And if you don’t believe in the Old Testament, why include it in your canon of scripture?

I believe in the Old Testament.

Taking the scriptures as a whole, there is grounds for plural marriage, it happened among holy men, you know it had to be happening among others. Plural marriage was written into the law that Israel followed.

-Point out specifically where plural marriage was written into the law that Israel followed.

-Again, speaking about Christianity, you cannot point to anything in the New Testament or other ancient Christian documents that demonstrate that plural marriage was part of the Church of Jesus Christ. If you can, point it out specifically.

God as a man is not foreign to the scriptures,

Point out where in the scriptures it states, as I stated, that God the Father was once a man that progressed to/achieved Godhood, as has been taught by LDS prophets, apostles, other leaders, manuals, magazines, etc. Where did the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believe such a thing? Point it out specifically.

neither is it foreign to the scriptures that women are in heaven.

I see a trend of you twisting words. Of course women are in Heaven. I am talking about the LDS idea that the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother. Point out specifically where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed in such a thing.

If men are made in God’s image, who are women made after?

As the Bible teaches, Catholics believe that both men and women are made in the image of God. You seem to be implying that men are made in God’s image, while women are made in the image of the Heavenly Mother deity. If so, point out where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed such an idea.

If children come from a mother and a father, why is it so odd that God the Father (implying children) that there is not a God mother and if that is true it’s not too far of a stretch to come to the conclusion that God has a wife.

So you’re claiming such a belief because it seems logical to you? The above also points out further how much LDS humanize God, since He is an exalted man (as we may become).

Those scriptures certainly suggest that Jesus didn’t do anything his father didn’t do. So, either there is a constant loop being repeated or there is progress. Was Jesus flesh before he was born to Mary? Did he resurrect only to return to being a spirit? If he was the son of God before he was born to flesh, how did he become a son if not born in spirit? If born, then who was his father?

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is God. He has eternally existed as God. His father is God the Father, and He is eternally begotten. We believe that the relationship amongst the Persons of the Trinity is an eternal relationship, in contrast to the LDS idea of the begetting of Jesus/Jehovah by the Father and Mother at some point (as their firstborn spirit child). We believe that after He died, He was physically resurrected, and physically ascended to Heaven. He is fully God and fully man.

Again, please point out where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed that the Son is a spirit child of the Father and Mother deities.

Is baptism required to be saved in the kingdom of God? If so, then what of all of those who haven’t been baptized? Certainly there must be some answer. How many people have lived and died with no chance of even hearing there is a Jesus Christ? Are they to be cast off forever? (No. Of course not, A loving god would never do that, But the scriptures say one cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless they are born again. It was taught and believed in the New Testament times. It is in the scriptures.)

This has already been explained multiple times. Catholics believe in concepts called “invincible ignorance” and “baptism of desire”. We don’t believe that they are necessarily cast off forever, due to God’s infinite mercy and justice. We further believe in offering Masses and prayers for the dead in the hope that we can help their situation.

There are a lot of confusing passages in the scripture and a lot of attempts to explain them away, especially when they don’t fit with what we believe. To me, it is simple. God is a Father and we are his children. Therefore there must be a mother. God the Father is the head to whom we address all our prayers. He brought about a plan through his Son, Jesus Christ, to bring us, his children back into his presence (meaning we were in his presence before). The Holy Ghost teaches us these things or we could not and would not know God. He also teaches us all truth. Jesus died for everyone, whether they know him or not. All who have ever lived will be resurrected. To live with God, however; requires that we be like him. In the resurrection, some will be raised to celestial glory and some to other glories. To obtain the celestial glory requires certain things which is to follow all that God ever taught, whether it be to Adam, or to Abraham or to Moses or to Elijah or to Peter. Among these things are the priesthood, marriage, baptism and families. If you cannot abide a celestial glory, you cannot live with God. Seems simple enough.

Again, point out specifically where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ taught that we must be ordained to the priesthood, be eternally married, etc to receive eternal life.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Mormonism started as a Trinitarian religion but in 1844 Joseph Smith led his people into apostasy with his rejection of the trinity and teaching that God was once a man like us.

So, you must be a different kind of Mormon. You can’t lead someone into apostasy unless you had the truth to begin with. Please supply references for his “reject of the trinity” and he quite effectively supported his hypothesis that God was once a man like us from the Bible.

I’m just going to cut to the wick really fast here. Was Jesus once a man like us? Could he die? Did he die? Was he subject to sin and temptation, just like us? Is He not God? I propose that Jesus was born like us, via a mortal mother. He grew up from childhood to man hood without knowing everything at the beginning, just like us. He was tempted just like us, He died a mortal death, just like we will. If all these are true and Jesus is God, then I guess Joseph Smith wasn’t wrong about God being once a man just like us… (of course, the difference is, he was perfect and didn’t sin and had power over death, which we don’t, but to the extent of growing from grace to grace, living in the flesh being subject to all temptation, He was just like us).

 

[Stephen168]

I quite clearly stated “ancient Christian documents”. The Old Testament is not a Christian document, though it is included in the Christian scriptures, and revered as the word of God by Christians.

I believe in the Old Testament.

-Point out specifically where plural marriage was written into the law that Israel followed.

-Again, speaking about Christianity, you cannot point to anything in the New Testament or other ancient Christian documents that demonstrate that plural marriage was part of the Church of Jesus Christ. If you can, point it out specifically.

Point out where in the scriptures it states, as I stated, that God the Father was once a man that progressed to/achieved Godhood, as has been taught by LDS prophets, apostles, other leaders, manuals, magazines, etc. Where did the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believe such a thing? Point it out specifically.

I see a trend of you twisting words. Of course women are in Heaven. I am talking about the LDS idea that the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother. Point out specifically where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed in such a thing.

As the Bible teaches, Catholics believe that both men and women are made in the image of God. You seem to be implying that men are made in God’s image, while women are made in the image of the Heavenly Mother deity. If so, point out where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed such an idea.

So you’re claiming such a belief because it seems logical to you? The above also points out further how much LDS humanize God, since He is an exalted man (as we may become).

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is God. He has eternally existed as God. His father is God the Father, and He is eternally begotten. We believe that the relationship amongst the Persons of the Trinity is an eternal relationship, in contrast to the LDS idea of the begetting of Jesus/Jehovah by the Father and Mother at some point (as their firstborn spirit child). We believe that after He died, He was physically resurrected, and physically ascended to Heaven. He is fully God and fully man.

Again, please point out where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ believed that the Son is a spirit child of the Father and Mother deities.

This has already been explained multiple times. Catholics believe in concepts called “invincible ignorance” and “baptism of desire”. We don’t believe that they are necessarily cast off forever, due to God’s infinite mercy and justice. We further believe in offering Masses and prayers for the dead in the hope that we can help their situation.

Again, point out specifically where the ancient Church of Jesus Christ taught that we must be ordained to the priesthood, be eternally married, etc to receive eternal life.

Over and over Mormons tell us the sign of apostasy is the changing doctrine, yet they have invented many.

 

[BrotherofJared]

I quite clearly stated “ancient Christian documents”. The Old Testament is not a Christian document, though it is included in the Christian scriptures, and revered as the word of God by Christians.

Well that effectively removes about 3500 years of God’s dealings with his children. Now you can just decide what to keep and what to get rid off. Since the 10 commandments are in the New Testament, then I assume you don’t have to follow those either, because they aren’t “Christian” values? That truly is picking what you want to believe and leaving the rest out. You can write your own ticket to heaven. No one can argue celestial values against such reasoning.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Oh boy, I get to quote myself.

I hope this link will provide support for the previous disreputable site. The question is, is it infallible. The response in that post is most confusing:

If this latter part is true, then why belong to the Catholic church and why harp on Mormons for their beliefs? Charity shouldn’t be an issue. Truth? Now that’s a big one. Who knows truth? Is it true that if you’re not baptized you won’t get into heaven? Is it truth that God has no body parts or passions and that He is everywhere, yet nowhere? And if we don’t believe those then we shut ourselves out of heaven? If you don’t need any saving performances, then why get baptized at all?

This has already been addressed (again). Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Within it, the sacraments necessary for salvation, as revealed by Jesus Christ, are found. We call all to be part of Christ’s Church, since we know that that is where salvation can be found. However, the reality is that there are some that will never hear the message of Christ’s Church in their life. So, we believe that God, who is God, in His omniscience, can judge that person and determine whether they would have accepted the fulness of the Gospel in this life if they had the opportunity to accept it. This is something that only God can know. With that being said, God has revealed the normative means of salvation, and that is why we call people to the Truth revealed by God.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Over and over Mormons tell us the sign of apostasy is the changing doctrine, yet they have invented many.

Name one.

 

[Slaney]

He was a victim of what Saint Paul warned us about !