For Mormons - How Much Do You Really Know About Joseph Smith?

[Jerusha]

While there is no evidence of God telling Abraham or Jacob to take other wives or the handmaiden, it is evident that God either suspended the law in their situation or he condoned it because neither man lost his inheritance because of it. For whatever reason you might come up with, God allows polygamy in some situations. That god is Jesus Christ.

It was allowed under the Old Covenant, because of the imperfection of human beings. Jesus brought us up to a higher level. Our perception of God’s will changes as we evolve-- God does not change, but humanity changes. Today’s Jews do not practice polygamy.

However, given LDS beliefs, I can see your line of reasoning. OT Jews were not God’s children when they did not believe in the Jesus who was to come. Belief in vague prophecies was insufficient-- it was very specific, it had to be Jesus.

 

[Marie5890]

I’ve already answered this one. You have your egyptologists and I have mine. They disagree, so lets disagree. You say his translation is wrong, I say it was right. It’s not like the Book of Abraham isn’t available for the general public to read. They may not be able to translate it, but they can read it and decide for themselves if it’s scripture or garbage.

In base 10, 2+2=4.

That is a fact, and that fact never changes. It can never be anything else.

You can disagree with me or with that fact, but it still holds, whether your disagree with it or not.

In base 10, 2+2=4 and that is all it can be.

 

[iepuras]

I’m not sure God commanded Abraham to take Hagar. I don’t think Joseph taught it.

This is not true. Have you not read your own scriptures?
Doctrine & Covenants 132:34-35:

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

Joseph Smith and LDS prophets to this day teach that God commanded Abraham to take Hagar, which is not in the Bible.
Genesis 16:1-2:

1 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

According to the account in Genesis, taking Hagar as a wife/concubine was Sarai’s idea, not God’s. There is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.

So do you believe the account in Genesis or in Doctrine & Covenants?

 

[RebeccaJ]

According to the account in Genesis, taking Hagar as a wife/concubine was Sarai’s idea, not God’s. There is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.

So do you believe the account in Genesis or in Doctrine & Covenants?

Not only that, Abraham realized that his and Sarai’s lack of faith in God’s promise, was a mistake. He worried that God would seek retribution and prayed that He would not. God’s response was mercy, not condoning sin.

That is the thing with a lot of Mormon ideas. God’s mercy is viewed as God giving permission. It is in my opinion, a diabolical take on scripture.

 

[BrotherofJared]

In response to:

You said, in post 276:

So, naturally, since you disagree with Stephen that polygamy was never the teaching of Jesus Christ, one could ask where exactly it was a teaching of Jesus Christ. Hence why I asked the question.

As we can see, nowhere did Jesus Christ ever teach polygamy, among many other unique Mormon beliefs.

you managed to pick around my reply and totally miss that I said that my response was, I disagree. That’s like telling me, I’m a Mormon. You also missed that, I can totally see where Christ taught Polygamy. You can’t and there’s nothing I can do to open your eyes.

 

[iepuras]

you managed to pick around my reply and totally miss that I said that my response was, I disagree. That’s like telling me, I’m a Mormon. You also missed that, I can totally see where Christ taught Polygamy. You can’t and there’s nothing I can do to open your eyes.

An actual reference to where Jesus Christ teaches that polygamy is a commandment would be a good start.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Abraham realized that his and Sarai’s lack of faith in God’s promise, was a mistake. He worried that God would seek retribution and prayed that He would not. God’s response was mercy, not condoning sin.

You totally made that up. Where do we see that Abraham realized that he or Sarah made a mistake? What passage indicates he was worried about god’s retribution. Where do we see any response from god concerning Sarah’s decision?

What we see is that an angel of god spoke to Hagar and told her to go back and that her son would not be forgotten in the promises given to Abraham and his seed. Basically, Hagar flaunted her position and abused Sarah’s gift of her husband. Abraham told Sarah she could do with the woman as she pleased and so in turn Sarah made Hagar’s life miserable and Hagar left. The angel told Hagar go back and live it. In effect, go back an apologize.

My reasoning is also conjecture because the scriptures don’t actually say that, but I cannot see your story of what happened (guilt, fear) anywhere in the scriptures.

 

[BrotherofJared]

In base 10, 2+2=4.

That is a fact, and that fact never changes. It can never be anything else.

You can disagree with me or with that fact, but it still holds, whether your disagree with it or not.

In base 10, 2+2=4 and that is all it can be.

Egyptology is not mathematics. Math is evolving. Once upon a time you would not have to qualify the base numbering system you were using to explain your addition. While your declaration may be true today, it may not be true tomorrow. Egyptology is no where near as refined as math. In this case, one expert in Egyptology says one thing and another says something different, ergo it is NOT a scientific fact.

 

[LivingWaters7]

you managed to pick around my reply and totally miss that I said that my response was, I disagree. That’s like telling me, I’m a Mormon. You also missed that, I can totally see where Christ taught Polygamy. You can’t and there’s nothing I can do to open your eyes.

I didn’t pick around anything. You said you disagreed to the point that polygamy was never a teaching of Jesus Christ. The rest that you posted did not demonstrate that Jesus Christ ever taught polygamy. The fact of the matter is that He never did, and it never was a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[BrotherofJared]

This is not true. Have you not read your own scriptures?

Joseph Smith and LDS prophets to this day teach that God commanded Abraham to take Hagar, which is not in the Bible.

According to the account in Genesis, taking Hagar as a wife/concubine was Sarai’s idea, not God’s. There is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.

So do you believe the account in Genesis or in Doctrine & Covenants?

Well, I stand corrected, but I did say I wasn’t sure he taught it. Saying “there is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.” is an over statement. I believe both accounts and there’s nothing in either account that is contradictory. The results are the same. Abraham took Sarah’s maid to wife and laid with her in direct violation of the basic laws of god. It was adultery, a sin second only to murder. How then can you justify that God continued the promises given to Abraham even through Hagar’s child? Nothing to suggest? If you do not believe that there is a possibility that God at least condoned it, then here are intentionally skipping over evidence. Cherry picking.

Since none of us where there, we have no idea what actually went down. We can only fill in the gaps for the missing pieces, but the fact that Abraham continued in the favor of God and no punishment ever came, but instead a blessing that Sarah did eventually conceive a child in a miraculous way, then one must come to the conclusion that Abraham did not sin where his actions with Hagar are concerned. Further, it seems apparent to me that Abraham talked with God frequently. It is not too far a leap of the imagination that Sarah, being barren suggested to Abraham that he take her maid and lay with her to conceive a child. Abraham would have brought such a suggestion up to God to get his counsel. At that point, having done so what would God have said? If He said no, then Abraham would have been in direct violation of God’s command and like Adam, he would have been cut off. The only other alternative is that God said yes and I believe if He did so, it would have been with illuminating reason. All of which we don’t have in the Bible. But what we do have is, Abraham took Hagar to wife and bare a child with her and he was not cut off.

 

[BrotherofJared]

I didn’t pick around anything. You said you disagreed to the point that polygamy was never a teaching of Jesus Christ. The rest that you posted did not demonstrate that Jesus Christ ever taught polygamy. The fact of the matter is that He never did, and it never was a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ok. I’ll break it down.
Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus gave the law to Moses.
The law was raise up children to their deceased brother (polygamy)
Jesus → Moses → the law → polygamy
Jesus taught polygamy.

 

[kimg901]

Ok. I’ll break it down.
Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus gave the law to Moses.
The law was raise up children to their deceased brother (polygamy)
Jesus → Moses → the law → polygamy
Jesus taught polygamy.

And that’s the key word, DECEASED. The man/woman was no longer living.
po•lyg•a•my (pəˈlɪg ə mi)

n.
the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, esp. a wife, at one time.

po•lyg′a•mist, n.

Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

So there was not more than one wife or husband. It was 1 at a time so monogamy, not polygamy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You totally made that up. Where do we see that Abraham realized that he or Sarah made a mistake? What passage indicates he was worried about god’s retribution. Where do we see any response from god concerning Sarah’s decision?

What we see is that an angel of god spoke to Hagar and told her to go back and that her son would not be forgotten in the promises given to Abraham and his seed. Basically, Hagar flaunted her position and abused Sarah’s gift of her husband. Abraham told Sarah she could do with the woman as she pleased and so in turn Sarah made Hagar’s life miserable and Hagar left. The angel told Hagar go back and live it. In effect, go back an apologize.

My reasoning is also conjecture because the scriptures don’t actually say that, but I cannot see your story of what happened (guilt, fear) anywhere in the scriptures.

Right, however, God promised Abram and Sarai that they would bear a child in their old age, together. Ten years go bye, and Sarai, not trusting God’s promise, takes matters into her own hands and tells Abram to have intercourse with Hagar. This was Sarai’s actions, not God’s. Abram, Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael then live in the expectation that Ishmael is the child that God promised, which is of course, not true. It is the child that Sarai arranged to come into the world via her own plans and ambitions, of which Abram cooperated with with. But Ishmael was not the fulfillment of God’s promise…

Years later, God makes his covenant with Abram, changing his name to Abraham and his wife’s name to Sarah. Telling them, again, that Sarah will have a son. The shock is throughout the following passages. Abraham’s response indicates he is worried about the fate of Ishmael, who but moments before he believed was the child that would be blessed by God. Now, what is the fate of this child? What can a father do but ask God have favor on this child? How bigger of a thing is it to ask when you KNOW that this child is a product of your lack of faith and trust in God?

Genesis 17

18
So Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael could live in your favor!”

Why would Abraham worry that Ishmael was not in God’s favor, if he believed something was right about the whole situation?

God then says, again, that Abraham and Sarah will have a child. Which is the promise made, and not believed by Sarah earlier in her life. Where she then contrived to make a promise of God come to pass without God.

19
God replied: Even so, your wife Sarah is to bear you a son, and you shall call him Isaac. It is with him that I will maintain my covenant as an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him.

God then shows mercy to Abraham and shows that his prayer for Ishmael has not gone unheard:

20
Now as for Ishmael, I will heed you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He will become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.

But again, makes it clear that the covenant with Abraham and his descendants will be maintained through Isaac, who is the promised child from God, and not the child that came from Sarah’s unfaithfulness to God.

21
But my covenant I will maintain with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you by this time next year.

Beyond that, Sarai’s choices brought discord into the home. Jealousies and complications to heredity that would not have been there, had Abraham and Sarah trusted God and remained true to each other. Bringing Hagar into the mix solved nothing, and was not the means to make a promise of God come to pass, without God.

Sarai and Abram acted on their own, in an attempt to fulfill a promise of God. “Oh look, Abraham has a child, God’s promise is fulfilled.” NOT! Obviously, this whole extramarital relationship was unnecessary, and was not commanded by God, as evidenced by Isaac.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I stand corrected, but I did say I wasn’t sure he taught it. Saying “there is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.” is an over statement. I believe both accounts and there’s nothing in either account that is contradictory. The results are the same. Abraham took Sarah’s maid to wife and laid with her in direct violation of the basic laws of god. It was adultery, a sin second only to murder. How then can you justify that God continued the promises given to Abraham even through Hagar’s child? Nothing to suggest? If you do not believe that there is a possibility that God at least condoned it, then here are intentionally skipping over evidence. Cherry picking.

As I said, Mormons often mistake God’s mercy for God’s permission.

 

[kimg901]

Right, however, God promised Abram and Sarai that they would bear a child in their old age, together. Ten years go bye, and Sarai, not trusting God’s promise, takes matters into her own hands and tells Abram to have intercourse with Hagar. This was Sarai’s actions, not God’s. Abram, Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael then live in the expectation that Ishmael is the child that God promised, which is of course, not true. It is the child that Sarai arranged to come into the world via her own plans and ambitions, of which Abram cooperated with with. But Ishmael was not the fulfillment of God’s promise…

Years later, God makes his covenant with Abram, changing his name to Abraham and his wife’s name to Sarah. Telling them, again, that Sarah will have a son. The shock is throughout the following passages. Abraham’s response indicates he is worried about the fate of Ishmael, who but moments before he believed was the child that would be blessed by God. Now, what is the fate of this child? What can a father do but ask God have favor on this child? How bigger of a thing is it to ask when you KNOW that this child is a product of your lack of faith and trust in God?

Genesis 17

18
So Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael could live in your favor!”

Why would Abraham worry that Ishmael was not in God’s favor, if he believed something was right about the whole situation?

God then says, again, that Abraham and Sarah will have a child. Which is the promise made, and not believed by Sarah earlier in her life. Where she then contrived to make a promise of God come to pass without God.

19
God replied: Even so, your wife Sarah is to bear you a son, and you shall call him Isaac. It is with him that I will maintain my covenant as an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him.

God then shows mercy to Abraham and shows that his prayer for Ishmael has not gone unheard:

20
Now as for Ishmael, I will heed you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He will become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.

But again, makes it clear that the covenant with Abraham and his descendants will be maintained through Isaac, who is the promised child from God, and not the child that came from Sarah’s unfaithfulness to God.

21
But my covenant I will maintain with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you by this time next year.

Beyond that, Sarai’s choices brought discord into the home. Jealousies and complications to heredity that would not have been there, had Abraham and Sarah trusted God and remained true to each other. Bringing Hagar into the mix solved nothing, and was not the means to make a promise of God come to pass, without God.

Sarai and Abram acted on their own, in an attempt to fulfill a promise of God. “Oh look, Abraham has a child, God’s promise is fulfilled.” NOT! Obviously, this whole extramarital relationship was unnecessary, and was not commanded by God, as evidenced by Isaac.

 

[iepuras]

Well, I stand corrected, but I did say I wasn’t sure he taught it. Saying “there is nothing to suggest that this action was sanctioned by God.” is an over statement.

How so?

I believe both accounts and there’s nothing in either account that is contradictory.

The results are the same.

Agreed. Sexual intercourse either within the bonds of matrimony or adulterous eventually leads to a baby.

Abraham took Sarah’s maid to wife and laid with her in direct violation of the basic laws of god. It was adultery,

I agree it was adultery.

a sin second only to murder.

That is a belief specific to Mormonism. Given the culture of the Middle East at the time, Abraham’s sin may not have been a mortal one, but that is for God to judge, not me or you. It certainly caused a lot of jealousy and heartache. Polygamous marriages had a tendency to cause drama.

How then can you justify that God continued the promises given to Abraham even through Hagar’s child? Nothing to suggest? If you do not believe that there is a possibility that God at least condoned it, then here are intentionally skipping over evidence. Cherry picking.

God’s mercy

Since none of us where there, we have no idea what actually went down. We can only fill in the gaps for the missing pieces, but the fact that Abraham continued in the favor of God and no punishment ever came, but instead a blessing that Sarah did eventually conceive a child in a miraculous way, then one must come to the conclusion that Abraham did not sin where his actions with Hagar are concerned. Further, it seems apparent to me that Abraham talked with God frequently. It is not too far a leap of the imagination that Sarah, being barren suggested to Abraham that he take her maid and lay with her to conceive a child. Abraham would have brought such a suggestion up to God to get his counsel. At that point, having done so what would God have said? If He said no, then Abraham would have been in direct violation of God’s command and like Adam, he would have been cut off. The only other alternative is that God said yes and I believe if He did so, it would have been with illuminating reason. All of which we don’t have in the Bible. But what we do have is, Abraham took Hagar to wife and bare a child with her and he was not cut off.

Now you are going into wild conjecture, which I find amusing since you accused me of making an overstatement. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Here is what we know.

1. In Genesis 12, God promises to Abram that he will have a biological heir. Abram is 75 years old at the time. The promise is made again in Genesis 15.
2. In Genesis 16, we read that when Abram is 85 years old, he is still childless and Sarai suggests that he have intercourse with Hagar to have a child. Abram listens to his wife and impregnates Hagar. Ishmael is born when Abram is 86. Nowhere do we see God communicating with Abram, or even Abram trying to communicate with God on the matter. We do see an angel telling the pregnant Hagar to return to Sarai despite Sarai’s treatment of her.
3. In Genesis 17, the Lord appears to Abram when he is 99 years old. God reiterates His promise to Abram of a son through Sarai and changes their names to Abraham and Sarah. Abraham is concerned for Ishmael because he is his son and not the son promised by God so he asks God to show mercy on him, which God does.

So there is a 10 year gap between God’s appearances to Abram in chapters 12 and 15. There is also a 13 year gap between God’s appearances to Abram in chapters 15 and 17. I would hardly call that frequent. As Abraham had great faith in God, I assume that he frequently prayed to God, but that doesn’t mean that God appeared to him all that often. If Abram talked to God “frequently” as you suggest, why didn’t Abram just ask God if it was ok to sleep with Hagar?

What I see in the story of Abraham and Sarah is God’s boundless mercy. Abraham was raised in a polytheistic culture where the gods were spiteful and capricious and had to be appeased by men. Abraham learned that God is quite different, which I imagine was quite shocking and overwhelming to Abraham. God is merciful. No matter how much we sin, He is merciful.

The Bible is the story of God’s love and mercy towards mankind. In the Old Testament, we see God’s mercy towards Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Israelites. In the New Testament, we see His mercy towards Peter, the widow of Nain, the woman at the well, the 10 lepers, etc. Over and over again, humans sin, and over and over again, God forgives and shows mercy. God’s love and mercy culminate in the Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Forgiveness and mercy do not mean that God condones sin, but He pleads with us to repent and accept His love and mercy.

I was born and raised in the LDS church, so I understand why you interpret the story of Abraham the way you do. But your interpretation is counter to the overall message of the Bible, which is the love and mercy of God towards mankind. As someone who was raised LDS, it is difficult for me to simply accept God’s love and mercy. My conversion to Christianity really came when I finally “got” what God did for us through the Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was so overwhelming, I fell to the ground and wept.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Egyptology is not mathematics. Math is evolving. Once upon a time you would not have to qualify the base numbering system you were using to explain your addition. While your declaration may be true today, it may not be true tomorrow. Egyptology is no where near as refined as math. In this case, one expert in Egyptology says one thing and another says something different, ergo it is NOT a scientific fact.

Are you saying that someday the statement “in base 10, 2+2=4” may not be true?

Gee there is only one Egyptology “expert” that claims the BoA translation is correct, all the others say it’s wrong, the consensus is that the papyri has nothing to do with the BoA at all.

Here we even have an LDS church member and Egyptologist who doesn’t believe that JS translated the BoA from the papyri:

Dr. Stephen E. Thompson holds a Ph.D. degree in Egyptology from Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. He is the second LDS scholar to earn a doctorate degree in Egyptology. In a paper given at the 1993 Sunstone Symposia in Salt Lake City (August) and Boston (November) Dr. Thompson presented his reasons for concluding that Joseph Smith did not produce the Book of Abraham by translating it, as he claimed, from an Egyptian papyrus scroll he had obtained in 1835.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Mary (after all, she did get pregnant out of wedlock). All these are pillars in God’s kingdom, yet had circumstances that were less than honorable. I will state again. I have no problem with Joseph Smith’s character or polygamy. I believe there was and is a purpose in it.

Mary’s circumstances and the conception of Jesus Christ were less than honorable, really. You are unbelievable.

 

[vsedriver]

While there is no evidence of God telling Abraham or Jacob to take other wives or the handmaiden, it is evident that God either suspended the law in their situation or he condoned it because neither man lost his inheritance because of it. For whatever reason you might come up with, God allows polygamy in some situations. That god is Jesus Christ.

so Jesus lied when he said if a man leaves his wife and takes another he is committing adultery.“Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.” (Matt. 19:3–8; cf. Mark 10:2–9; Luke 16:18)

if the two become one then you can’t any more people into the mix or the number will no longer be ‘one’.

 

[zaffiroborant]

While there is no evidence of God telling Abraham or Jacob to take other wives or the handmaiden, it is evident that God either suspended the law in their situation or he condoned it because neither man lost his inheritance because of it. For whatever reason you might come up with, God allows polygamy in some situations. That god is Jesus Christ.

No God doesn’t allow it in some situations, in His mercy He forgives it. Do you have a hard time believing that God will forgive you of a sexual sin? I bet you read The Miracle of Forgiveness didn’t you.