I meant that we both honor her as the mother of God which is exactly what I said. No, we don’t pray to her. Yes the shrines and prayers to her weirds us out because, she isn’t god. Mormons also have pictures of Mary and Jesus in their homes.Mormons do not give particular honor to Mary. How often is she held up as an example to emulate, particularly in General Conference talks? When I was LDS, Eve was spoken of with greater love, respect and appreciation far more than Mary. Eve was always held up as a role model to women. Mary never was. In fact, Mary is hardly mentioned at all. My LDS family is weirded out by the pictures I have of Mary in my home. That doesn’t sound like honor to me, especially given the fact that they have pictures of Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson in their homes.
I don’t get this. Is Joseph’s birthday the same as Christmas? Wow. It is. I never new that. Joseph was born Dec 23. The fact that they’d be celebrating Joseph and not Christ is almost pagan. I’m afraid that either this information is missing some facts or it isn’t true. It’s just convenient. Unfortunately, convenience is the basis for most attacks on LDS beliefs.The last Christmas I spent in the LDS church, the ward Primary made a big deal about Joseph Smith’s birthday and didn’t do anything for Christmas.
"KJV:He was not concerned about the Ishmael, he was concerned about the welfare of his wife bearing a child in her old age. In effect, he was suggesting that the blessings could fall on Ishmael and spare Sarah the burden, but God would not have it. Verse 17, which you skipped, clearly shows his concern for his wife and gives all the reason for his statement in verse 18.
People don’t fall on their face laughing when they are concerned about a loved ones health.Genesis 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Nothing in scripture supports your notion that Abraham was worried about Sarahs’ health in child bearing.Nothing in the scriptures supports this claim. Sarah’s only disbelief was when she heard that she’d give birth and she was already 90.
In your view of Mormonism, does Abraham and Sarah represent being the father and mother of humanity, or something like that? I found a Mormon website called Mormon Interpreter, and there’s an interesting article there by an Andrew Smith, regarding Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar. The article seems to allocate the Blessed Virgin Mary (not the term they use for her) to the same sort of role as that of Hagar. Abraham and Sarah are like a new Adam and Eve (the first parents of humanity) and Abraham and Sarah are sort of like the second parents. Hagar’s son goes on the become the patriarch of the Ishmaelites (which seems to somehow seems important to Mormons), which seems to have some sort of correlation to the Blessed Virgin Mary (an infallible human like Hagar, according to the Mormon author), who gives birth to Jesus.I meant that we both honor her as the mother of God which is exactly what I said. No, we don’t pray to her. Yes the shrines and prayers to her weirds us out because, she isn’t god. Mormons also have pictures of Mary and Jesus in their homes.
So Mormons believe Mary that just “got pregnant out of wedlock” and the whole of Christs’ conception and birth were not honorable.Really? getting pregnant out of wedlock is not a “less than honorable” situation? You are unbelievable. The point is, you make exceptions when you believe that what happened was right and good. But use these situations to poke other people in the eye and say they are bad and wrong.
Drawing from circumstances that surround Christianity’s role models, one could hardly say you guys are pillars of purity. You honor Marry as we do. She is the mother of God. The circumstances are unimportant.
Joseph Smith saw and talked to God and God, through him, restored the gospel. The circumstances are unimportant. I know it’s not “exactly” the same. We don’t honor Joseph the way you honor Mary. He wasn’t infallible. However, there is a bases for polygamy. The circumstances and opinions of today are unimportant and make no impact to Joseph Smith’s vital role in restoring the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
He allowed and taught polygamy the same way He allowed and taught slavery, so you support slavery to then.You have the Bible before you. I say He allowed and taught polygamy from the very same pages you say he doesn’t. Go figure.
Polygamy is really a non-issue with Mormons.
Well, if I believed what I was taught in early morning seminary regarding how Jesus was conceived, I would agree that it was a “less than honorable” situation. What I was taught was so dishonorable, I felt sick about it for a long time. Just another one of those things I put up on the mental shelf and tried not to think about.
Since when do Mormons honor Mary as the Mother of God? Please provide a reference, and, no, the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon does not count.I meant that we both honor her as the mother of God which is exactly what I said. No, we don’t pray to her. Yes the shrines and prayers to her weirds us out because, she isn’t god. Mormons also have pictures of Mary and Jesus in their homes.
The level of honor given to Mary in Mormonism doesn’t hold a candle to the honor given to her by Catholics and Orthodox.And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
There is no need for you to be sarcastic. You very well know that Mormons do not hold services on Christmas day unless Christmas happens to fall on a Sunday. My experience is absolutely true. It happened in my ward. It was the Sunday before Christmas when Christmas should have been celebrated and recognized in all Sunday meetings. We did recognize Christmas during sacrament meeting, but the Primary presidency decided to ignore Christmas and focus entirely on Joseph Smith during Primary to celebrate his birthday. I had children in Primary at the time. I had a calling in Primary. My mother is also a Primary teacher in that ward. She is a very much believing and committed Mormon and she is the one who complained to me about how inappropriate it was.I don’t get this. Is Joseph’s birthday the same as Christmas? Wow. It is. I never new that. Joseph was born Dec 23. The fact that they’d be celebrating Joseph and not Christ is almost pagan. I’m afraid that either this information is missing some facts or it isn’t true. It’s just convenient. Unfortunately, convenience is the basis for most attacks on LDS beliefs.
It’s convenient because it looks bad, but with no effort to look at the information to find out why, leads the causal observer or the observer who is biased to accept it as fact and exclude or make up reasons for the rest of it.
And it is convenient for you to discount my experiences in the LDS church because I am no longer a part of it. The problem with Mormonism is that I don’t have to make up stuff to make it look bad. The truth does that all on its own.It’s convenient because it’s easy to present it to others as an explanation of how bad Joseph Smith is. It’s convenient because one bad thing can hide so many other good things, even if the bad thing just looks bad but isn’t.
Are you a man? Have you ever talked with LDS women other than your wife about polygamy? Polygamy bothers my LDS mother so much she refuses to discuss it. Polygamy bothered me the day I first learned that it is a doctrine of the LDS church. It never stopped bothering me until the day I realized that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.Polygamy is really a non-issue with Mormons. We practice serial monogamy today which, since we marry for eternity, is really polygamy, but for the most part, serial monogamy is acceptable. What happens after death? Very few living really care about it. There’s nothing we can do about it. It happens. That’s part of life.
Polygamy is still a non-issue regardless of the number, I mean, is 2 wives worse that 10? or worse than 33? I think the age issue is not that big of a deal either. I know of people who marry today at 14. It’s conceivable. That he kept it from Emma, if it was a commandment from God and he knew Emma wouldn’t like it. I can understand him keeping it private. Did he have sex with all these women? That’s not conceivable. Even if you eliminated the 11 or so wives who were already married, it’s still not conceivable. Joseph just didn’t have the time.
The only real grounds for question is marrying the married women. My first thought would be how did that work. That goes so totally against what Joseph taught. Shall we accept it at face value or could he have done such a thing and not been a hypocrite?
This right here shows that “bitter ex-Mormons” don’t have to make up stuff to make Mormonism look bad.First question would be: did he have sex with them? The answer is no. Second question, Why did he married them if not to be “married” to them? Answer, eternity only marriage. Third question, what did the husbands think about that. Answer, all of them accepted it without any reservations. Fourth question, Why would they accept it? The answer to that question is far to lengthy to put here, but the results opens the door to explain how eternal marriage works for the man who marries and marries again after the first wife dies. How the man who marries a widower who was married her first mate for eternity can have an eternal companion. How the Israelites preserving the inheritance of their brothers and even taking to wife the survivors of battle if they desired to do so. How the question posed to Jesus about the brothers all having the same woman, whose wife is she. Whether Joseph stumbled into it or was commanded or whatever reason. That period of his life was so fully accomplished as to bring the entire human family together, from Adam and Eve to the last couple as husband and wife in a completely linked lineage of all God’s children.
I don’t see how this makes it any better, since it robs the first husband of an eternal companion. It also doesn’t explain the repulsive situation with Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. Who was polyandrously married first to Jacobs/Smith then to Jacobs/Young. Henry Jacobs had his eternal family snatched away by his prophets.The only real grounds for question is marrying the married women. My first thought would be how did that work. That goes so totally against what Joseph taught. Shall we accept it at face value or could he have done such a thing and not been a hypocrite?
**First question would be: did he have sex with them? The answer is no. Second question, Why did he married them if not to be “married” to them? Answer, eternity only marriage. **Third question, what did the husbands think about that. Answer, all of them accepted it without any reservations. Fourth question, Why would they accept it? The answer to that question is far to lengthy to put here, but the results opens the door to explain how eternal marriage works for the man who marries and marries again after the first wife dies. How the man who marries a widower who was married her first mate for eternity can have an eternal companion. How the Israelites preserving the inheritance of their brothers and even taking to wife the survivors of battle if they desired to do so. How the question posed to Jesus about the brothers all having the same woman, whose wife is she. Whether Joseph stumbled into it or was commanded or whatever reason. That period of his life was so fully accomplished as to bring the entire human family together, from Adam and Eve to the last couple as husband and wife in a completely linked lineage of all God’s children.
Exactly! Some of the women Joseph “married” were already married to apostles or otherwise faithful LDS. Were they just not as “worthy” as Joseph Smith? It is all so terrible and abusive.Why did Joseph Smith seal himself to other men’s wife (men who were still living)
Why were they not sealed to their own husbands?
That, even within LDS doctrine, is so abusive and demeaning of women. Basically he robs the other men of their “eternal companions”
Honestly, you don’t really want to know because it will offend your sensibilities. There was a thread on it over a year ago that discussed it.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=814520&highlight=mary
Yes, Mormon women love Eve. She is held up as a role model, someone who was courageous and brave. Mormons do not believe in Original Sin and see the Fall as a good thing and necessary for our eternal progression to become exalted in the celestial kingdom.
Here is a link to a talk from Henry Eyring, who is in the first presidency of the LDS church, from the April 2014 general women’s conference.
lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/daughters-in-the-covenant?lang=eng
Henry B. Eyring:
Consider Eve, the mother of all living. Elder Russell M. Nelson said this of Eve: “We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”
Every daughter of Eve has the potential to bring the same blessing to her family that Eve brought to hers. She was so important in the establishment of families that we have this report of her creation: “And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him.”
We don’t know all the help Eve was to Adam and to their family. But we do know of one great gift that she gave, which each of you can also give: she helped her family see the path home when the way ahead seemed hard. “And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”
You have her example to follow.
By revelation, Eve recognized the way home to God. She knew that the Atonement of Jesus Christ made eternal life possible in families. She was sure, as you can be, that as she kept her covenants with her Heavenly Father, the Redeemer and the Holy Ghost would see her and her family through whatever sorrows and disappointments would come. She knew she could trust in Them.
And you know this how??Mary was 13 when she conceived Jesus Christ.
I don’t; do you??We marry other mens wives all the time.
yes. I fell to the ground and wept too when I learned that God’s mercy was so great that he still talks to man and provides guidance just like he always has in the Bible, through prophets. Specifically through Joseph Smith in these latter days.
BrotherofJared;12434497:
My research started before the internet. I had to go buy books and study in libraries. The internet has since provided an excellent library where I can read both sides and yet, I find the information confirming of my beliefs.I meant that we both honor her as the mother of God which is exactly what I said. No, we don’t pray to her. Yes the shrines and prayers to her weirds us out because, she isn’t god. Mormons also have pictures of Mary and Jesus in their homes.I don’t get this. Is Joseph’s birthday the same as Christmas? Wow. It is. I never new that. Joseph was born Dec 23. The fact that they’d be celebrating Joseph and not Christ is almost pagan. I’m afraid that either this information is missing some facts or it isn’t true.
I don’t think that was the first time he has shaded the truth. He has made a few statements parroting/mocking the posts of others. I have to wonder: Is this what it takes to defend Mormonism?There is no need for you to be sarcastic. You very well know that Mormons do not hold services on Christmas day unless Christmas happens to fall on a Sunday. My experience is absolutely true.
YesI don’t think that was the first time he has shaded the truth. He has made a few statements parroting/mocking the posts of others. I have to wonder: Is this what it takes to defend Mormonism?
From the essay:Since we’ve been discussing the bad behavior of Joseph Smith, particularly polygamy, here is a link to a new essay that was released on polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith. I didn’t think the LDS church would actually release an essay on this topic because it makes Joseph Smith look bad more than anything else.
lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
Like I said before, “bitter ex-Mormons” don’t have to make up anything. The truth is all we need.
This is a rather big mistake they’ve got there. I bet they change it then pretend they never made it in the first place.recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132, states that Joseph prayed to know why God justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in having many wives.