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boomerang
Guest
Oh. My. God.
This cult is far, far more indebted to the Father of Lies than I imagined. It makes me sick. 
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This cult is far, far more indebted to the Father of Lies than I imagined. It makes me sick.
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Marie5890
Guest
Going back, there is no evidence that Isaac practiced polygamy.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
In my time as a Mormon, perhaps the only time Mary was mentioned was in passing when saying that Jesus was born of her. That’s about it. As already mentioned, Eve has a much more prominent, overt role in Mormonism. This is made particularly explicit in the Endowment, where patrons are asked to think of themselves as Adam and Eve throughout the presentation of the Endowment.
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taylorf
Guest
And we cannot rely on our warm and fuzzy feelings to teach us about truth or God. Otherwise we’d have people running around claiming wild and crazy things…like trying to convince us that your real name is Mahonri Moriancumer.
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Marie5890
Guest
For Catholics religion and science are not at odds when it comes to truth.
it was, after all, a Catholic priest who came up with the Big Bang theory.
Truth is truth whethercfrom science or religion.
it was, after all, a Catholic priest who came up with the Big Bang theory.
Truth is truth whethercfrom science or religion.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
And started us down the genetics road.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Indeed, Gregor Mendel (the founder of genetics) was an Augustinian Friar. Funny that the professors never mentioned that while they were teaching us Medelian Genetics.And started us down the genetics road.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
There have been many prominent Roman Catholic Clergymen who were renowned scientists. Here is a link to the Wikipedia page that lists them all:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric-scientists
Paul
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JaminB123
Guest
So the BrotherOfJared and the latest official LDS defense piece (lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng) insist that polygamy was commanded by God in the OT.
A quote from the Mormon defense article: “In biblical times, the Lord commanded some of His people to practice plural marriage—the marriage of one man and more than one woman.”
We keep asking for evidence of God “commanding” polygamy in the OT and the only thing we’ve gotten is the following proof-text:
"Deuteronomy 25:5-6, King James Version (KJV)
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel."
First, there is no explicit command to polygamy in this. Second, this is no way defends JS’s polyandry. Third, the situation described above bear absolutely no resemblance to ANY of JS’s polygamous/polyandrous unions. It’s nothing more than a failed proof-text and to keep repeating it doesn’t make it any less of a failure.
There’s so much evidence against the trustworthiness and integrity of JS that I would consider him a false prophet even without the polygamy. But we should pretend the polygamy doesn’t matter. It was a defining characteristic of early Mormonism. According to Brigham Young:
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266)
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy…” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
And to defend these outlandish claims with the Bible, we have… Deuteronomy 25:5-6. Meh.
Meanwhile, I read in the NT: “…each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband” (1 Corinthians 7:2). That is a much clearer endoresement of monogamy than any polyandry/polygamy proof-text that BrotherOfJared or LDS.org has come up with. I’m going to go with this one vice some obscure OT pasage that maybe, sorta, possibly could imply polygamy in very specific circumstance.
A quote from the Mormon defense article: “In biblical times, the Lord commanded some of His people to practice plural marriage—the marriage of one man and more than one woman.”
We keep asking for evidence of God “commanding” polygamy in the OT and the only thing we’ve gotten is the following proof-text:
"Deuteronomy 25:5-6, King James Version (KJV)
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel."
First, there is no explicit command to polygamy in this. Second, this is no way defends JS’s polyandry. Third, the situation described above bear absolutely no resemblance to ANY of JS’s polygamous/polyandrous unions. It’s nothing more than a failed proof-text and to keep repeating it doesn’t make it any less of a failure.
There’s so much evidence against the trustworthiness and integrity of JS that I would consider him a false prophet even without the polygamy. But we should pretend the polygamy doesn’t matter. It was a defining characteristic of early Mormonism. According to Brigham Young:
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266)
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy…” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
And to defend these outlandish claims with the Bible, we have… Deuteronomy 25:5-6. Meh.
Meanwhile, I read in the NT: “…each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband” (1 Corinthians 7:2). That is a much clearer endoresement of monogamy than any polyandry/polygamy proof-text that BrotherOfJared or LDS.org has come up with. I’m going to go with this one vice some obscure OT pasage that maybe, sorta, possibly could imply polygamy in very specific circumstance.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Let’s get to the facts. Do you or do you not know of an Egyptologist who has translated the rediscovered papyri and claims that they contain text from the Book of Abraham? If so, please provide a reference. If there is one out there that claims Joseph got it right, I want to know. Who are they, and what did they say?
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Chris-WA
Guest
I have a hard time believing that you don’t remember what the issue was, but perhaps the Holy Spirit was trying to tell you something.
There is evidence all over the place that shows Joseph was a con man. The people who know this best are the LDS historians who have spent decades pouring through historical documents, testimonies, scripture, etc, and have, through great personal difficulty (often times at the cost of their jobs, family/friends, and church membership) sought the truth no matter where it took them.
But his actions are not “aligned” with other men of God. There is just too much evidence, too much testimony from those who knew him best, too many examples of his claims being dubious at best, to support anything other than the notion that he duped a lot of people. At some point one must take an objective look at the evidence and make a judgement not based on feelings. You would never give another human being that much slack, but For some reason Joseph gets a pass. That reason is the fact that the Mormon church stands or falls by the claims of Joseph Smith.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Absolutely untrue. It is very well known among historians that Joseph and his family were heavily involved in treasure seeking. Joseph claimed to have the ability to “see” where the treasure was, and was paid to find it, though he never did. Why, because it was a con. This con landed him before a judge on more than one occasion, where under questioning he admitted that he really couldn’t see where the treasure was. And it was not, as you say, just when he was a boy. Those appearances in front of a judge happened in 1830, the same year he started the church.
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Marie5890
Guest
There are many things that I truly appreciate about the Church, one of them being that the human intellect and it’s ability to reason is not discouraged. It’s encouraged. We know that they are gifts from God. We celebrate them.
On FB one of my FB friends who is Mormon posted one of the one liners that came out of GC (I think about a year ago?)
“Doubt your doubts”
I was like, “Wha? Why do that? There is nothing wrong with having doubts”
If anything I say explore your doubts. Take your doubts to the Lord. He can handle them.
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iepuras
Guest
This ^^^^^
If BoJ heard about the founder of another church that did the same things as Joseph Smith, I expect that he would find it as dubious as we would. I doubt that he would let this hypothetical church leader marry his 14 year old daughter, even if it was legal. But for some reason if Joseph Smith does something unsavory, it is not only okay but commanded of God.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Though they don’t like to talk about it, the LDS Church admits that Joseph was employed as a treasure hunter and claimed to be able to find buried treasure with his seer stone. They also admit that Joseph used that same seer stone to translate at least some of the BoM. The fact that BoJ is convinced otherwise is evidence of how little he knows about his own church’s true origins.
BoJ, you should read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. It’s in there and in every accurate LDS Church-accepted biography of Joseph Smith. Joseph was convicted in court for “glass-looking” and conning people. He had to pay a fine. If you look through the LDS threads here you will find posted a photocopy of the court finding and the assessment of the fine.
Paul
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Denise1957
Guest
I found an article from the Catholic Archdiocese of Washington DC, which describes the polygamy of the OT Patriarchs, and the attending problems that it created, and that it was Jesus (as in the New Testament) that brought the faithful back to God’s original plan of only one woman and one man in marriage:
blog.adw.org/2011/06/dont-do-polygamy-on-the-polygamy-of-the-patriarchs-and-the-problems-it-produces/
blog.adw.org/2011/06/dont-do-polygamy-on-the-polygamy-of-the-patriarchs-and-the-problems-it-produces/
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BrotherofJared
Guest
Well, if we cannot rely on science and we cannot rely on the Holy Ghost, then I guess we’ll never know until we’re dead.
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BrotherofJared
Guest
I am done posting in this thread. I have answered to OP’s opening comments. I know all of those things and it doesn’t change my stance. Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and restored the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have no problem with those people who don’t like what Joseph Smith did. I know that any prophet following God is going to get flack. Whether the you believe that through the mercy of God Abraham was forgiven of taking another wife, that’s up to you. You excuse him for his actions, his lying, his extra-marital affair and his attempt to kill his son, because you accept him as a prophet of God. That is largely the reason I accept these things. If he said God told him to do it, then that’s that God did and Joseph was simply obeying.
We focused here on a lot of inaccurate evidence that formed ideas that simply are not true. Polygamy became the focus for most of the arguments. But polygamy is not the focus of Joseph Smith’s teachings. In my person study, I have found that he, Joseph Smith, is the most accurate in all of the teachings of the Bible concerning life and salvation. I believe that the Book of Mormon teaches these principles in the purest form that we can obtain today. This is enough for me.
But to prove that science does not help us to find god, I would suggest that when you find out that Isaac really did have more than one wife, ask yourself, How did Joseph Smith know that? Then ask yourself, would it make any difference to your beliefs? I would tell you that it will make no difference at all. Secular knowledge cannot save even if it is right. Joseph Smith stated in his Lectures on Faith that one of the three things man must know to exercise faith unto life and salvation (saved) is “An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his [God’s] will.”
I would ask you, how can one know his course is according to God’s will unless God tells him? And how will he tell him except it be through the Holy Ghost? There is a difference between knowing for one’s self and believing what’s taught. I have this knowledge and I know my course is according to God’s will.
I have no problem with those people who don’t like what Joseph Smith did. I know that any prophet following God is going to get flack. Whether the you believe that through the mercy of God Abraham was forgiven of taking another wife, that’s up to you. You excuse him for his actions, his lying, his extra-marital affair and his attempt to kill his son, because you accept him as a prophet of God. That is largely the reason I accept these things. If he said God told him to do it, then that’s that God did and Joseph was simply obeying.
We focused here on a lot of inaccurate evidence that formed ideas that simply are not true. Polygamy became the focus for most of the arguments. But polygamy is not the focus of Joseph Smith’s teachings. In my person study, I have found that he, Joseph Smith, is the most accurate in all of the teachings of the Bible concerning life and salvation. I believe that the Book of Mormon teaches these principles in the purest form that we can obtain today. This is enough for me.
But to prove that science does not help us to find god, I would suggest that when you find out that Isaac really did have more than one wife, ask yourself, How did Joseph Smith know that? Then ask yourself, would it make any difference to your beliefs? I would tell you that it will make no difference at all. Secular knowledge cannot save even if it is right. Joseph Smith stated in his Lectures on Faith that one of the three things man must know to exercise faith unto life and salvation (saved) is “An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his [God’s] will.”
I would ask you, how can one know his course is according to God’s will unless God tells him? And how will he tell him except it be through the Holy Ghost? There is a difference between knowing for one’s self and believing what’s taught. I have this knowledge and I know my course is according to God’s will.
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Denise1957
Guest
I would agree that Polygamy is not the central focus, but isn’t polygamy taught in the BoM? If not, maybe someone could correct me on that. Also, in your defense of Polygamy, you’ve mainly used sources from the OT. There are no sources from the New Testament that show that Jesus or the Apostles taught anything even close to Polygamy. No indication whatsoever. Jesus didn’t practice it or teach it (on the contrary, He taught that marriage was between one man and one woman). The Apostles didn’t practice or teach it, nor did the early Church Fathers. There just isn’t any way at all to reconcile Polygamy with the Teachings of Jesus or the Apostles in the New Testament, and you still haven’t shown that Polygamy was a commandment of God in the OT.
If anything, your views on Polygamy, IMO, would lend itself to Mormonism being an offshoot of Judaism, rather than Christianity (I realize that Mormonism teaches that it is a restoration, not an offshoot, yet it appears, to me, to be an offshoot from Judaism, with a bit of Christian thought thrown in).
Since Joseph Smith was wrong about Polygamy (the practice has nothing to do with Christian belief), then he’s likely wrong about other things as well. You have the right to disagree with me, of course, and I’m sure you will, but we are trying to point out the serious problems with the teachings of JS.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You have a very warped view of what we believe about Abraham. We see the OT as Salvation History, with a progressive revelation of God and His will for humanity. We are living in the fullness of God’s revelation, who is a Person, Jesus Christ, but Abraham was not.
Abraham, when he took Hagar as a concubine, was according to the tradition of his culture. That is, the culture he belonged to ascribed to a civil law that allowed a man to take a concubine if/when his wife was proven to be infertile. (Having no children was viewed, always, as the fault of the wife in that ancient culture.)
We are not judged for what we don’t know and Abraham is not judged for adultery, because as Romans says, from Abraham to Moses there was no Law, and therefore no condemnation under the Law. (Including thou shalt not lie.) Abraham was not under the Law, not even the ten commandments. Romans 4:3-8 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough to credit him for his righteousness. So prior to Moses, compliance with God’s applicable will was enough for salvation.
Abraham’s faith is what saved him, and Isaac as well, and all of his posterity to come. Hebrews telling us that Abraham’s faith was such that he believed God would raise his son from dead. He was saved in his righteousness to the applicable will of God.
From Moses to Christ the people of God were under the Law. The people were saved in obedience to the Law.
From Christ to now we are under the New Covenant, which is Jesus Christ Himself. Any who come along claiming a newer covenant, a new way to Salvation, is preaching a new Gospel. So we can easily reason that Joseph Smith is among those who are false prophets.
As for Smith himself, he claimed to be a Christian before the so-called restoration. Therefore, he was obligated to follow God in the light of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which includes no polygamy and that adultery is a sin. Modifying the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as Smith did to suit his own appetites, is not seen by us as a sign of prophecy.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
The BoM says that polygamy is not allowed, unless God directly commands it. Otherwise, heterosexual monogamy is the rule.
Polygamy is taught and encouraged in the D&C, mostly section 132. The rules governing the practice of polygamy are laid out very specifically in that section. Joseph Smith broke every one of those rules. He took wives without his 1st wife’s permission. He took wives who were not virgins. He took wives who were married to other men (polyandry). And he lied about all of it right up to his death.
He also broke the rules in Deuteronomy. For instance, he married 2 pair of sisters - forbidden in Deuteronomy. He also married a woman and her daughter - forbidden in Deuteronomy (and just plain creepy).
Joseph Smith was the Warren Jeffs of his day.
Paul
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