Thanks for the correction and further info. So since the BoM mentions that polygamy is allowed if God directly commands it, is that how some Mormons perhaps justified the practice, by saying that God commanded them to do it? Or something like that?
Yes. After Joseph Smith’s extramarital affairs came to light, he began to teach his inner circle that God had “restored” the practice of polygamy and had commanded Joseph to practice it. He never mentioned polyandry but he did that too. Section 132, Joseph’s “revelation” about polygamy was not included in the D&C until many years after his death, after the LDS church had relocated to the Rocky Mountains. By then many LDS were practicing polygamy.
Wow. So it would seem that Joseph Smith and then the LDS (via D&C) found a way to justify Smith’s polygamy. And who is going to question the prophet? It seems to be assumed that even when he did something wrong, it was really okay. Maybe they use the example of the OT prophets, who were also imperfect. But Smith, it would seem, went beyond just being imperfect…he sinned exceedingly, which of course doesn’t resemble our Lord Jesus, who told people to go and sin no more. He was patient, but clear about sin. And yet Smith seems to get a free pass, and not to mention that he leaves a bad example, at least for those who are aware of the things he did.
We have yet to see any actual evidence of that. Yes, I used to believe that too (indeed, I used to say the same thing right on this very forum). Then after much study and prayer, I realized that it wasn’t true. The fact is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has always been here on earth, since Jesus Christ Himself gave His Gospel, and founded His Church, 2000 years ago. That Church was never lost, and has continued on to this day, guided by the Spirit, with Jesus Christ at its Head, as we read in the Bible. That Church is the Catholic Church. Joseph Smith did not restore anything that was lost from the Gospel and Christ’s Church. Instead, he invented a host of odd beliefs found nowhere in the ancient Church of Jesus Christ, including:
Sure, that’s also what Muslims, Seventh-day Adventists, and all the other members of religions with a prophet claiming to have the corrections say.
Catholics believe in faith and reason. We believe that reason is God-given, and God-confirming. We look at history and use reason and see many evidences for the reality that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, and that Jesus Christ really does guide His Body and His children, and didn’t let His Kingdom fall away, as the LDS seem to believe. Using our God given reason, we see no reason to believe in the great apostasy theory espoused by LDS and all the other religions with prophets claiming to have the “real” truth that was supposedly lost at some point. We also rely on our faith, and know that we can go to God and ask in faith anything, and that God still speaks and always has (it really is amusing seeing some LDS talk like if they’re the only ones that believe that God can answer prayers). Our faith is also strengthened by the hundreds of miracles that have occurred in Catholic history for 2000 years. It is filled with Heavenly visions, angelic visitations, healing, gifts of the Spirit, and a host of other miraculous events. There simply is no reason to look to Mormonism for things that have always been here, never lost, and certainly not for Joseph Smith’s innovations that do not align with what God revealed already.
You don’t know your own scriptures. Here it is right in D&C section 132:
Refuted by whom? You keep making claims that just don’t hold water. All of your arguments on this thread seem to follow the same pattern–say anything you can to create some doubt in the debate without providing any references or facts. You’ve even made some claims that your own church doesn’t make in their arguments.
Neither has to be true for Joseph to have produced the Book of Mormon by himself. Historians have been able to determine where about 75% of the BoM came from. Approximately 25% comes from a 1769 edition of the King James Bible, including the same translation errors (Joseph owned a copy and knew it very well). Besides the large amount of material copied almost word for word from the KJV, there are many examples of stories and motifs ripped off from the bible and applied to BoM characters. It would be natural to expect that the Nephites would have similar ideas to biblical characters, but again and again you see things appearing also with the same sequence, phrasing, and sentences. In his book An Insiders’s View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer does an excellent job citing uncanny similarities between the bible and the BoM. When read side by side, it becomes quote clear that Joseph ‘borrowed’ much material from his 1769 KJV.
Seems like your own church concedes the possibility that Smith had sex with his multiple wives, as opposed to your own categorical denial.
So a friend of mine said that smith was restoring the primitive church and that church was from the O.T (He is lds) but here in this forum we have lds stating that it was Christ Church smith was restoring. Im confused.
Mormons believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was taught from Adam on down, in cycles of apostasy and restoration. They also believe that the organization of the Church (i.e. apostles, prophets, etc), has been restored.
Oh. thanks for the info!
I’m glad that you have found this thread revealing. For years I have participated in LDS-related threads on CAF and I sort of got tired of people beating around the bush. Researching these issues has shown me that most LDS are very unaware that the true history of their church is far different than what they have been taught. There is something seriously wrong with that. They know the fairy tale, but what they deserve to know is “the rest of the story.” The truth can be scary, especially when it conflicts with lifelong-held beliefs. But even so, no one should be afraid to find truth, no matter where it comes from. Fortunately, the information is easier than ever before to access. As time goes on, I’m confident more and more LDS will avail themselves of that information.First, great response on Abraham today from RebeccaJ! I was on the verge of doing a similar reply but then I saw that Rececca has already done it much better than I could have.
Second, I also appreciate Denise’s comment that, “as Catholics, we don’t mind admitting (or shouldn’t mind) that there have been bad Catholics, because it does not diminish the Catholic faith, since we have clear teachings about what we should and shouldn’t do. But then our founder, Jesus Christ, was sinless. The founder of Mormonism…not so much.” Amen. When I went through RCIA a couple years, I so appreciated the moral and intellectual integrity of acknowledging the sins and failures of Catholics and Catholic leaders through the ages. We don’t need to insist that every Pope was a saint; I don’t need to pretend that Pope Sergius III was holy the way Mormons have to pretend that Joseph Smith was holy (ref. my previous link to the last LDS general conference) for fear that my faith would otherwise crumble.
Now the BoJ is bowing out from the discussion, perhaps this thread is coming to an end–I think we lost all the Mormons! If so, I will miss it. I think it was a very revealing thread and BoJ, to his credit, stuck with the dialogue long after many Mormons would have fled (maybe the Isaac polygamy blunder was the straw that broke the camel’s back).
I pray that we have planted a seed with BoJ and other Mormons who may come across this thread. I am grateful that the Holy Spirit led me from Mormonism into the church that Christ founded 2000 years ago, warts and all. I pray for more Catholic converts like myself. We need Catholics with BoJ’s zeal. We need churches with the strong social support networks that the LDS possess. We need their generosity. We need their missionary spirit. We need their virtues. I pray that the virtues of Mormons will be brought to where they truly belong–Rome Sweet Rome.
Come on home, Mormons. The water is fine.
Thanks for sharing your feelings and views, Jamin.First, great response on Abraham today from RebeccaJ! I was on the verge of doing a similar reply but then I saw that Rececca has already done it much better than I could have.
Second, I also appreciate Denise’s comment that, “as Catholics, we don’t mind admitting (or shouldn’t mind) that there have been bad Catholics, because it does not diminish the Catholic faith, since we have clear teachings about what we should and shouldn’t do. But then our founder, Jesus Christ, was sinless. The founder of Mormonism…not so much.” Amen. When I went through RCIA a couple years, I so appreciated the moral and intellectual integrity of acknowledging the sins and failures of Catholics and Catholic leaders through the ages. We don’t need to insist that every Pope was a saint; I don’t need to pretend that Pope Sergius III was holy the way Mormons have to pretend that Joseph Smith was holy (ref. my previous link to the last LDS general conference) for fear that my faith would otherwise crumble.
Now the BoJ is bowing out from the discussion, perhaps this thread is coming to an end–I think we lost all the Mormons! If so, I will miss it. I think it was a very revealing thread and BoJ, to his credit, stuck with the dialogue long after many Mormons would have fled (maybe the Isaac polygamy blunder was the straw that broke the camel’s back).
I pray that we have planted a seed with BoJ and other Mormons who may come across this thread. I am grateful that the Holy Spirit led me from Mormonism into the church that Christ founded 2000 years ago, warts and all. I pray for more Catholic converts like myself. We need Catholics with BoJ’s zeal. We need churches with the strong social support networks that the LDS possess. We need their generosity. We need their missionary spirit. We need their virtues. I pray that the virtues of Mormons will be brought to where they truly belong–Rome Sweet Rome.
Come on home, Mormons. The water is fine.
I would also add, parishes were strong knit, at least here in the USA, due to immigrants and their cultures. Parishes tended to reflect the culture that lived in the community, IE Polish, Italian, Irish, German, etc.
Yes, quite true! Though this is getting off-topic a bit, there are still Catholic parishes of tight-knit immigrants, or descendants of immigrants, but they tend to be Asian or Hispanic, culturally. Not so much European, at least in my city. Interestingly, a Mormon friend who was visiting from Utah a few weeks ago told me about a book she had recently read about healthy communites, and she mentioned that among the healthiest were small villiages in Italy, where people tend to take care of each other. I wanted to mention that it could have something to do with the Catholic roots of Italy, but I didn’t say anything. I’m sure she’s smart enough to realize it on her own.
I am hoping that Mormons who read this thread, though they may not take my word for it, will at least be prompted to take a deeper look at these issues on their own. I am very thankful for the historians who have taken the time to sort through all the evidence and compile it into easily accessible formats whether it be books, articles, or talks posted on YouTube. For those LDS who have read this thread, I would encourage you to take the time to dive into the history. A good place to start are the numerous talks and interviews found on YouTube and other sites.
There is nothing in either the OT or the NT that resembles Mormonism. The use of reason shows us this clearly.
Mormonism is not a restoration, as it claims. It’s an invention of a man living in 19th century America with it’s temple rituals coming from Masonry
In order to believe in Mormonism, one must believe in a God that plays mind games, IMO.
I am in the middle of an expose of Mormonism called “The Godmakers” by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. I realize that Hunt is as anti-Catholic as they come, so I read his book with a grain of salt, thinking if he treats Mormon doctrine the way he treats Catholicism, this book will be a waste of time rather than edifying. Well, many of the assertions in the book have been confirmed right here in this thread. What really hit me was the Mormon adulation of Adam and Eve. You remember the two sinners in the Garden who disobeyed God and brought death and sin into the world? Those two! And they place them above the Blessed Virgin? This is Luciferian to the max. I hope and pray that all Mormons will be enlightened as to the origin and nature of their religion.